Bryan S. said:

I have never bought any product that didn't come with a user manual for free no product but yours!

Have you ever bought a third party product that helps you understand a software program?  The manual you cite is produced by Morris Proctor. 

Bryan S. said:

[Morris Proctor] is the official Logos Trainer Right, which means one hand washes the other here.

Actually, I've read that Morris Proctor is not a Logos/Faithlife employee; and moreover, Logos does have free training resources. You can read about that in the comment stream at the bottom of the product page, to which you referred in your original post, but I've quoted it here:

Adam Borries (Faithlife Support) said:

This manual is produced by an entrepreneur (www.mpseminars.com), which we sell here as a courtesy, but we also offer free training material. Below is a list to get started, and we are adding more all the time. If there is a specific feature you can't find training for, feel free to email me personally at [adam dot borries at faithlife.com].

• Training articles and videos: www.logos.com/training/desktop
• More videos on YouTube: www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXkjd_l1xkSQ5fM605M-F5xikKNGBdPvj
• Discussion of each new feature: community.logos.com/forums/t/92701.aspx

Bryan S. said:

If someone has a link to a User Manual pleas add it...

Some links have already been posted which will begin to steer you in the right direction.  There are more links that I am sure others will eventually post here.  Here is one: https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_5_Video_Tutorials

Bryan S. said:

SineNomine said:

If it's not too late, I think it would be a charitable act on the part of the original poster to change the thread name.

OK

[:D] Thank you for your charity.

I can remember years ago buying Libronix based software in a store and getting about a 200 page manual that came with it. The print was very small but at least it was a manual that explained how to do certain things with the software (various searches, etc..).  

Logos 7 should definitely include some kind of ebook manual that goes into depth with the software. The days of having to pay a third party big dollars to teach us how to use the software should come to an end. 

Right now I have spent a small fortune between L3 and L6 on various manuals, training seminars, and videos. Some of this training kept me from dumping the software because at the time I felt that it was too cumbersome to use and that I would never be able to use it to do deeper kinds of study.  

I am not against third parties making money to teach me how to do other things using the software but when it comes to just running the software (doing various types of searches; tagging books; etc..) it should not be necessary.

I say this with no hard feelings toward Bob or Faithlife. But I definitely believe that this is one area that they need to improve in. As I write this I am currently waiting (with joyful expectancy I might add) on a brand new set of Learn Logos videos from John Fallahee so I can get a better handle on 6.

Bryan, if you are looking for some quality videos check out learnlogos.com.         

Bryan S. said:

If someone has a link to a User Manual pleas add it..

I got 28 Quick Start videos when I bought Collectors Edition.

Bryan S. said:

Mike Pettit said:

Hardly any software comes with a manual in this day and age, you need to get out more.

]Not true I buy very expensive software all the time... The last program I bought was over a thousand dollars and came with 14 PDF manuals, one for each phase of the program and wasn't a 2 min video each manual is over a 100 pages... I get out plenty Oh and they were free.. 

That's what a manual is a book to teach you about every aspect of a program in depth not a scratch the surface 2 min video...

I agree that most software that cost more than a few dollars usually include a manual. What has changes, is the format of the manual. Most of the time, you will not get a print manual anymore, but you will get a manual in pdf or other electronic format.

Initially, a manual not included with Logos used to bother me also, however, Logos has made progress in this area by providing so many tutorials, videos, and other training material (not officially included in Logos), that the impact of no official manual is minimized. And there are numerous third party sources that offer Logos instruction for free.

I agree that it probably would be a very good ideal for Logos/Faithlife to include that $14 manual on the basis of "just because", and Morris Proctor's Camp Logos seminars and training material cost is far greater than any basic $14 manual. The $14 manual could be a giveaway from either Morris Proctor or Logos and be considered as a introduction to the more advanced training. I believe the purpose of the QuickStart Videos is to serve as an intro to the Camp Logos, but the basic manual in pdf format, listing the commands will also add a lot of value.

That's my few pennies on this.

Erwin Stull, Sr. said:

I agree that it probably would be a very good ideal for Logos/Faithlife to include that $14 manual on the basis of "just because", and Morris Proctor's Camp Logos seminars and training material cost is far greater than any basic $14 manual.

Those of us who post in this forum have persevered to learn the program.  Most people are less persistent.  Back in the day when we used to get a credit for referring customers, I frequently pitched/demo'd Logos in my small group Bible studies.  Of the dozen or so friends and fellow Bible students that I know purchased the product, I don't know of a single one that uses it today.  The uniform reaction was complete disbelief that this sophisticated and complex program didn't come with any method of learning how to use it.  I pointed them to free videos (in the day when Mark Barnes's videos were THE best method for newbies to get their feet wet), MP's seminars, and LearnLogos.  They were (usually) too polite to tell me that they felt betrayed, but I can tell you that initially I certainly did.

It has been a consistent complaint, and there ARE excellent resources available for a fee. But.  It remains a mystery why Bob thinks this is a non-issue. 

Bryan, I don't think you're going to get too far on this.  Let's consider the clues.

1.  Writing manuals requires someone to know the software.  That's hard to come by at Logos.  That's why for many years now, they provided a wiki, since the two experts live, 1 in Australia and 1 in Ft Worth Tx.  There's also KSFJ, but I don't know where he lives.

2.  Bob's brother discussed the issue in detail many years back. He said in so many words, it's a pain.  Better to let this guy that wants to do the training, to do it.  He can charge; done.

3. Most users 'could' pay for a manual but they don't.  There's your answer.  It's not worth $15 (or whatever the charge is).

4. Many people download a PDF manual to see if they want to buy a product. That's what we always do; when we bought our car, fridge, etc, etc.  If Bob had downloadable manuals, the impact on his competitors would be .... well, unfortunate.  Imagine if people knew how to use Logos?

Jack Caviness said:

Guess you have never purchased a Microsoft product then

I call BS, Jack.

I've thrown away thousands of pages of Microsoft manuals. Paper ones.

Super.Tramp said:

I got 28 Quick Start videos when I bought Collectors Edition.

Those things were useful. Very.

But they ain't a User's Manual.

By far, the most valuable help has come from those outside of Faithlife Corp.  If these forums didn't exist, with all the folks, good and bad, offering help for free, Faithlife's customer support would blow up like the bad guy's head in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

I've had multiple serious problems, crashes, etc., and in EVERY case, it hasn't been Faithlife, nor their non-existent publications that have helped me fix them...it has been volunteers on the forums.

To me, that's a Rocky-esque black eye on Faithlife Corp.

What a whiner, you sound like one of the I'm entitled to this generation. Grow up! You aren't entitled to anything. If this rubs you raw then get rid of Logos and switch to another software. Logos supplied the software and Morris does alot of work preparing the manuals and it costs money. STOP COMPLAINING!

This is my opinion about manuals:  I think they're overrated.  The L6 videos provide more than enough help (I would think) for most users.  Power users may want something more.  From the videos I've watched, however, I think Logos has met the needs of the vast majority of users.  Just my opinion.  [:)]

Yes, I just got back from the Logos6 What's New Manual for $15 page .... and the Logos6 What's New for .... I forget, but it's a prepub.  I can't tell what's in either one, but it looks like L6 new features only.  I'm still trying to determine why I'd want the new features.

I searched around for another manual for my $20.  Zippo.  There's the $200+ series for Logos5.  But I haven't mastered Logos4 yet (ha).    Then the Judaica collection caught my eye ... only $450 or so.  Hmmm.

Maybe trying to find a manual for Logos is somewhat of a waste of time.  Maybe learning Logos is somewhat of a waste of time too.