Come and See - Commentaries or Monographs

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Dec 31 2014 5:01 PM

Thanks to Verbum 6 Scripture Study, I have 12 volumes of Come and See Catholic Bible Studies.

Eleven of those volumes are monographs. One of them is a commentary. Which is correct?

The eleven monographs are these. The commentary is this one.

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Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 28 2015 10:31 AM

Hey, you're right.  I didn't notice that.  I can see how they could be categorized either way.

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Antonius | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 30 2015 10:28 AM

This is a symptom of a problem I have experienced in other Series.

Faithlife, please be consistent in the meta-data for all the resources within a series.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 30 2015 1:53 PM

Antonius:

This is a symptom of a problem I have experienced in other Series.

Faithlife, please be consistent in the meta-data for all the resources within a series.

You don't want consistency within series as that can result in incorrect coding. Whether something is labeled as a commentary or monograph has to do with the structure of the index - a sequential index that goes through some portion of the Bible will be a commentary; non-sequential or intermingling of multiple books will be a monograph. That's a vast oversimplification but it directly affects how the book functions in the product. You may often find problems with the coding, but you should always be able to describe it in terms of not getting the expected behavior.

I do see several that appear to be mislabeled i.e. at least 4 more that I would expect to be Bible commentary.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 1 2015 11:40 AM

I'm not clear on the distinction.  In the screenshot below, the volume on the right is the one with type = Bible Commentary.  The one on the left is type = Monograph.  The indexes appear to be similarly mixed.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 1 2015 3:08 PM

Not the index in the resource; the Logos index for Bible passages assumed fairly dense references (most verses/pericopes covered) and sequential order for commentaries; non-sequential or fair sparse is monograph. I know that there are frequent errors in classification and I have not gone thru this series volume by volume looking for errors -- I'm just saying that for this series a mix is what I would expect.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 3 2015 5:40 AM

Over my head, I guess...  I was showing the book index which is a high-level view of the content including references. There is only one monograph out of the eleven in the series.  They look the same inside in those references and layout, etc.  There must be some nuance to the material.  Thanks for the explanation.  Very helpful.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 3 2015 12:48 PM

What matters is the electronic indexes that Logos/Verbum builds and uses - you never see them. But while this series has some questions choices for type, it does illustrate the point. One the left you will see that the chapters are basically sequential and most everything is covered. On the right the chapters are not sequential because the Gospels are read in parallel - you aren't reading all of Matthew then all of Mark ... the basic principle is that the left side behaves well as a Bible commentary while the right side does not.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 4 2015 8:14 AM

That helps.  Thanks.  I see how the resource on the right [The Synoptics] would be defined as monograph and the resource on the left would be defined as Bible Commentary. 

Applying my limited, but improving, understanding I'm thinking that the other OT resources would have been Bible Commentaries also.  As in the initial example it would seem that their index structure would be similar in reference to bible verses -> sequential order.

Maybe, as you suggest, there are some coding errors in the other resources. 

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Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 25 2015 10:32 AM

I just received an update and now all 12 are monographs.  So I guess that answers that. Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 25 2015 1:05 PM

If users want consistency monographs was the only possible answer.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 25 2015 7:26 PM

Does that mean that we need to change our collections definitions from 'type:commentary' to 'type:commentary OR type:monographs'?

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 25 2015 7:48 PM

SineNomine:

Thanks to Verbum 6 Scripture Study, I have 12 volumes of Come and See Catholic Bible Studies.

Thanks for pointing out this set.  Opened "Exile and Return" and read the introduction.  Very well thought out advise on running a small group Bible Study. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 25 2015 9:26 PM

Average Joe said they are now all monographs - I haven't checked.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 124
Antonius | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 26 2015 5:51 AM

I would like to propose a official "third category" for these types of books. As is stands now they are either a commentary or a monograph. The criteria of a commentary is quite strict (and I think it should be). A third category would be "Bible Study". For example, the books in the Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture Series are of type Commentary. Books like Peter Kreft's You can understand the Bible, and Pope Benedict's Jesus of Nazareth are Monographs. The Ignatius Study Bible and the Come and See series are "Bible Study". These two series are different enough from the two existing classifications to need a new classification.

This is how I personally tag them, but I think it would be beneficial for all users if Faithlife would officially create the new classification and update the appropriate volumes.

Posts 274
Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 26 2015 6:48 AM

Antonius:

I would like to propose a official "third category" for these types of books. As is stands now they are either a commentary or a monograph. The criteria of a commentary is quite strict (and I think it should be). A third category would be "Bible Study". For example, the books in the Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture Series are of type Commentary. Books like Peter Kreft's You can understand the Bible, and Pope Benedict's Jesus of Nazareth are Monographs. The Ignatius Study Bible and the Come and See series are "Bible Study". These two series are different enough from the two existing classifications to need a new classification.

This is how I personally tag them, but I think it would be beneficial for all users if Faithlife would officially create the new classification and update the appropriate volumes.

That could be useful.  Although, now that I look, the Ignatius Study Bible is categorized as "Bible Notes" rather than as a commentary or monograph.  I'm still learning the ropes as to what practical difference these designations make, though, so I'm not sure if that would suffice for what you have in mind or not.

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 26 2015 3:36 PM

My sincere apologies for not getting with the program.  Tongue Tied

When you have a "commentary" that clearly follows scripture, why would you "call it", or "type it" as a monograph?

If there is one thing that confuses me continuously with Verbum and my library is the amount of material that I consider a commentary "labeled" as a monograph.

In that context and for example ... In my Verbum Capstone+ library, plus another 1.000+ resources I have a total of 5 resources labeled as "Commentary".  Yes, 5. 

Over 6,000 with type "monograph".

Really?

Sorry to complain.  Sad

EDIT:  Silly me. My bad.  Embarrassed  The type "Bible Commentary" contains 289 type "Bible Commentary".  Still no Come and See volumes ... and others.

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2020 6:40 PM

SineNomine:
Eleven of those volumes are monographs. One of them is a commentary. Which is correct?

Now I have fifteen of them. Thirteen are monographs; two are Bible Commentaries.

Matthew and Luke are commentaries.

Mark and John are not.

I am unconvinced that quite all of these titles have been typed correctly.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2020 12:17 AM

by my understanding, the following are Bible Commentaries:


working Bibliography

Ponessa, Joseph L., and Laurie Watson Manhardt. Acts and Letters. Come and See: Catholic Bible Study. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2008.


Ponessa, Joseph L., and Laurie Watson Manhardt. Exile and Return: Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah, 1 and 2 Maccabees. Come and See: Catholic Bible Study. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2013.


Hoeck, Andreas, and Laurie Watson Manhardt. Ezekiel, Hebrews, Revelation. Come and See: Catholic Bible Study. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2010.


Ponessa, Joseph L., and Laurie Watson Manhardt. Genesis. Come and See: Catholic Bible Study. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2009.


Ponessa, Joseph, and Laurie Watson Manhardt. The Gospel of John. Come and See: Catholic Bible Study. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2004.


Liesen, Jan, and Laurie Watson Manhardt. The Gospel of Mark. Come and See: Catholic Bible Study. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2012.


Kosanke, Charles G., and Laurie Watson Manhardt. Isaiah. Come and See: Catholic Bible Study. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2011.


Ponessa, Joseph, and Laurie Watson Manhardt. Moses and the Torah. Come and See: Catholic Bible Study. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2007.


Liesen, Jan, and Laurie Watson Manhardt. Wisdom. Come and See Catholic Bible Study. Steubenville, OH: Emmaus Road Publishing, 2009.


Exported from Verbum, 12:15 AM November 23, 2020.

However, I have reason to suspect that study guides may be broken out into their own category as part of the integration of WordSearch.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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