Logos Now and Logos 7

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This post has 56 Replies | 13 Followers

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 5:45 AM

Tyson Heyn:
The greater concern to me is that continued price inflation of books.  I ran a quick little price check on previous purchases and guesstimate that resources tend to increase 6-8% in price each year.

I appreciate your concern about this but, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask how you arrived at this number. Is this an average after examining a cross-section of books over the past number of years or is it just a subjective conclusion?

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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-- | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 6:16 AM

It's disappointing to see bronze-starred bullies.  In all seriousness, I'm praying for you.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 6:48 AM

Tyson Heyn:
I went through my purchase records and made a good-faith effort to remove pre-pubs.

I'm not sure your figures are accurate. They're skewed because you probably bought some resources on sales. I therefore used archive.org to check historic prices.

According to that site, Select Works of John MacArthur. was $22.38 in 2015, not $16.49. And the Brian Williams Bible Study Collection you had at the pre-pub price. It's been $119.95 since at least August 2011.

When I checked some of my own, I found (for example), that the Treasury of David has been $59.95 since at least 2010 (it's now $59.99). The only other one I checked was An Introduction to the Old Testament. There the pricing was $38 through 2011 and 2012, before dropping to $34.95 around 2013 (it's $34.99 now).

So part from *.95 products becoming *.99 products I'm not at all sure there's evidence for widespread price increases. The exception might be Zondervan titles. At least I think it was Zondervan. They put up their Logos prices a year or two ago, by quite a jump.

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JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 7:35 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Logos 7 will most likely be available in two different ways: full ownership (effectively like Logos 6 is today) and partial ownership (library ownership + Now subscription).

Here's what the two options would look like for Logos 7 Gold:

  1. Full ownership: purchase and own the Logos 7 Gold base package, which is made up of Logos 7 Gold library (the books) and the Logos 7 Core software (the features, datasets, interactives, etc.).
  2. Library ownership / software subscription: purchase and own the Logos 7 Gold library (the books) and subscribe (or continue to subscribe) to Logos Now (the features, datasets, interactives, etc.).

Putting some (made up) numbers to it, as a Logos 6 Gold owner you'd pay $500 to upgrade to the full Logos 7 Gold base package and own all of the new books as well as the features, datasets, interactives, etc.

A Logos 6 Gold owner who has a Logos Now subscription you'd pay only $250 to buy full ownership of the Logos 7 Gold library. You won't need to buy the Logos 7 Core, since you already have access to all of that (and more) with your Logos Now subscription. (If you later decide that Logos Now isn't for you, you'd be able to purchase the Logos 7 Core or another full Logos 7 base package to regain access to the Logos 7 features.)

Of course, it's possible that we could do something extra special for Logos Now subscribers, like being the first to learn about Logos 7 or getting a special offer or an extra discount or a free bonus gift or . . . . But we haven't decided anything yet, and we'd want to keep that a special surprise. :)

The point is that there's a built-in discount for Logos Now subscribers because we're planning to make the library part purchasable separately from the software.

Just a suggestion:  Remembering the confusion and squawking over past releases of L4, 5, and 6, may I suggest a well laid out flow chart of the various options available to L7 upgraders instead of trying to describe it with words only?

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

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Whyndell Gizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 7:41 AM

Yes a flow chart would be great, since I own Master Collection and almost all the others, and subscribe to Now, looking at Professional Cloud- I will be looking for some guidance in looking at upgraging or not, or just L7 engine.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 8:37 AM

Tyson Heyn:
Guys, I'm on your side.  I'm trying to raise a real and significant issue.  

I was simply asking how you arrived at your numbers. I'm not on any "side" but the side of accuracy.

Mark Barnes:
So part from *.95 products becoming *.99 products I'm not at all sure there's evidence for widespread price increases.

Mark, you made a very compelling case through your entire post.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 10:35 AM

Tyson Heyn:
 For those interested in the importance of maximizing profitability at FL, I recommend reading CEO Bob Pritchett's Fire Someone Today.  I'd suggest it on Vyrso, but it's 28% more expensive there.  I'm sure I'll be accused of that being inaccurate, as well, so here's the price comparison:

+1 Yes recommend reading plus Thankful for Vyrso $ 0.00 price on 1 Sep 2015.  Found another eBook seller offering Fire Someone Today: And Other Surprising Tactics for Making Your Business a Success for $ 6.99

Thankful for many free and sale Vyrso items.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 10:55 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
Here's what the two options would look like for Logos 7 Gold:

  1. Full ownership: purchase and own the Logos 7 Gold base package, which is made up of Logos 7 Gold library (the books) and the Logos 7 Core software (the features, datasets, interactives, etc.).
  2. Library ownership / software subscription: purchase and own the Logos 7 Gold library (the books) and subscribe (or continue to subscribe) to Logos Now (the features, datasets, interactives, etc.).

I wonder if there will be a third option to buy just the books in a Logos 7 package without committing to a Logos Now subscription. It doesn't sound like it from Phil's comment, but it might be a less expensive way to upgrade for users who don't need all the latest bells and whistles or who can't do a payment plan under the new terms. Maybe buy a books only upgrade and then get the features/datasets as a separate upgrade at a later time when finances allow for it.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 11:20 AM

dash .... it would not matter Logos' price inflation. You're at a Cadallac dealership.  Free coffee and oil changes (once a month).  Christianity is a market and you're part of it. Money here ... money there. They sell Cadallacs. And mind you, not sharable Cadallacs. One Cadallac for each Christian.

Now, back to the OP:

I've thoroughly enjoyed Logos Now. Vicariously. It's taught me what I'm not missing. For Logos4-6, I dutifully crossgraded ... how could I not???? So risky. But Logos Now allows me to confirm how many times I'll never need 'that' feature.  Truthfully. Get the core, buy some books, enjoy.


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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 11:35 AM

Denise:
You're at a Cadallac dealership.

By this I think you mean the "best" although that's not how I think of a Cadillac but I would agree that it is the best Bible software available!

Denise:
But Logos Now allows me to confirm how many times I'll never need 'that' feature.

I would have said that before I actually experienced it but there are lots of Logos Now features that I use continually Now that I can. Before I used Logos I was content to use an Exhaustive concordance but now I enjoy just pressing a few buttons and getting the same result in a few seconds. You don't know what you have until you use it and then don't have it.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 11:53 AM

--:

I think worrying about Logos Now vs. Logos 7 pricing is a red herring for most users in these forums.  The greater concern to me is that continued price inflation of books.  I ran a quick little price check on previous purchases and guesstimate that resources tend to increase 6-8% in price each year.  It's really a shame--my purchases circa 2010 seem to be much more competitive with conventional books at the time, and now, many of them cost 40ish% more...for nothing!  Everyone keeps telling me that FL needs the money to keep investing in new technology, but isn't that why we purchase Logos Now and Logos 7?

I don't think that is being entirely fair to Logos. The first thing that comes to mind is that back in Libronix days, many publishers were making their own CD's or were paying Logos the cost up front to make them for them. For instance Nelson, Fortress Press, Galaxie Softwarem,  Concordia, Friends of Israel, Van Till CD, The E4 Group, and there were many others. Now Logos makes all resources in house for better quality control, and the ability to update them when needed. 

Back then, publishers weren't charging as high of a percentage royalty rates, so book prices were cheaper. Now some of our major Christian book publishers are charging Logos as much as 40% of book list price for the rights to publish their titles in Logos. Like Bob P said, if we want front list titles we will have to pay higher prices for them. Back list titles of course are much cheaper. I think the days of publishers letting go of high demand titles for low royalty rates is just about over. They too need to survive the new digital age that is changing the publishing world.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 12:07 PM

Bruce, I don't think I would ever characterize a Cadallac as 'the best'.  But if one already spent the fortune, then yes, it can only be the best.

As for features, I can honestly say, I rarely use the ones I got. I'm surprised they keep building more. Like their library expansion, the bloat can only have marginally fewer takers.

I still think the money is in the Proclaim side of the house. Churches have lots of money.


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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 12:47 PM

--:

It's disappointing to see bronze-starred bullies.  In all seriousness, I'm praying for you.

All that happened is that you made some claims about Logos' price increase which other people weren't sure were accurate ("pricing tends to increase 6-8% each year", emphasis added). One person politely asked you to give some more detail, and someone else (me!) took the trouble to check some of the figures, and politely posted what they found. I don't understand how that can be construed as bullying.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 1:53 PM

Matthew:

I wonder if there will be a third option to buy just the books in a Logos 7 package without committing to a Logos Now subscription. It doesn't sound like it from Phil's comment, but it might be a less expensive way to upgrade for users who don't need all the latest bells and whistles 

I wouldn't read into Phil's comment that something like this would not be a possibility... I assume it will! For clarification:

  • The engine has always been free, so based on past experienc, users should be able to update to the L7 engine (after a slight delay) without any new purchase
  • Logos Now is brand new, so we haven't gone through a cycle yet of new packages
  • The nature of LN is that users can add and drop it at will, on a month to month basis

How does this apply to what you suggested? Why would FL create "book only" packages and sell them only to "now" subscribers when a LN subscriber could simply stop subscription after the purchase? 

I think there well may be people in the boat you describe and it would be in FL's interest (imo) to sell to them. I should point out, however, that the savings may not be as big as you are imagining. As an exercise, take any given base package and remove the cost of a cross grade... Although that isn't likely the formula FL will use, I don't think you should expect savings any larger. Wink

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Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 2:17 PM

All good points,  Alabama. We will just have to wait and see what Faitife decides to do!

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Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2016 4:44 PM

Welcome to the world of free enterprise with a monopoly directing the market....at least we could derive from satisfaction from the mythical fairy of economics of scale.

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Joseph Sollenberger | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 20 2016 5:20 AM

Though some companies have left the Bible related software market, there are still many choices that offer overlapping products. It may be nice to have all of ones resources in a single software environment, but I have no problem working with multiple operating systems, multiple desktops, and multiple software products. But then, I must admit that I have been using computers since the mid 1960's. I can understand how one not so interested in technology would feel trapped into a single software ecosystem. I can also understand how one could claim that their wish is to simply use the computer as a tool and not be bothered by the technical aspects of the computer and its use. These are the same issues discussed in the late 1970's and early 1980's as personal computers came onto the scene. Believe it or not, it is exceedingly simpler today than previous decades and there are still many options for systems, tools, and data sources. I know that the present technology still falls exceedingly short of the promise of ubiquitous ease of use and function. These computer systems  are not toasters, nor even cars. They still require patience and learned skills! There is not a monopoly directing the market, but alternate choices may require that we leave our comfort zone and learn a new approach to doing things. It might even be, as Spock would say, "fascinating." Ah, the Star Trek style computer--now that is a toaster! Oh, even starship captains used and enjoyed a 'bound organizations of knowledge' at times. 

Shalom

Joseph F. Sollenberger, Jr.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 20 2016 6:03 AM

Joseph Sollenberger:
These computer systems  are not toasters, nor even cars. They still require patience and learned skills! There is not a monopoly directing the market, but alternate choices may require that we leave our comfort zone and learn a new approach to doing things.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 20 2016 8:13 AM

I suspect JoshRI is correct ... software like Logos, Accordance, and Bibleworks have their roots in the high-end of data 'erector sets'. And the mirror user base insists that is the cost of admission.  The more I know, the more you should know.

But I'd argue that there's been little advancement in the tinkering ... just more descriptives stacked on earlier descriptives. And the UI's are Jobs wanna-be's that ignore the point ... ease of use.

Need a modern day Bob Pritchett to set the new standard of Bible study.

OT The FBI now wants people to make sure their cars are updated. Who are they kidding.


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Average Joe | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 21 2016 8:17 AM

Matthew:

I wonder if there will be a third option to buy just the books in a Logos 7 package without committing to a Logos Now subscription. It doesn't sound like it from Phil's comment, but it might be a less expensive way to upgrade for users who don't need all the latest bells and whistles or who can't do a payment plan under the new terms. Maybe buy a books only upgrade and then get the features/datasets as a separate upgrade at a later time when finances allow for it.

I suppose you could subscribe to Logos Now for a month (for free!) and then cancel after buying the "books only" package. But Faithlife could very well choose to limit the books only packages to people who were already Now subscribers at the time Logos 7 launches. I can't say I'd blame them for doing that. You'd then just have to be a really good guesser for when to start your free month of Logos Now. Wink

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