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Posts 18824
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 31 2010 8:55 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

BillS:

Anything else you'd like to try?

The most likely explanation for the error you're seeing is that standard COM marshalling isn't working. To repair, try this:

  1. Open an Administrator Command Prompt
  2. Enter the following commands:

cd C:\Windows\System32
regsvr32 oleaut32.dll
cd C:\Windows\SysWow64
regsvr32 oleaut32.dll

Bradley, I tried this too, and I have the same error messages in my SmartTag.log file:  5265.SmartTag.log

Posts 8132
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 31 2010 9:49 PM | Locked

Rosie Perera:

Bradley, I tried this too, and I have the same error messages in my SmartTag.log file:  5265.SmartTag.log

OK, so much for that theory. It's maybe a typelib registration error... or... something else. I'll take a look and see what might be wrong.

Posts 8132
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 31 2010 10:36 PM | Locked

JimT:

Bradley,

Does the Word SmartTags DLL use the COM API to interact with Logos4, or some other methods?

If via the COM API, maybe a tiny stand-alone app (outside of Word), that connects to Logos4, and attempts to access John 3:16 etc, might help determine failings such as above?

Clearly, if the COM API can't talk, any kinds of messing around with settings, macros, or otherwise of Word will change nothing.

(And if SmartTags is NOT using the COM API, then nothing I've said here is very useful.)

A little related: Is the limit against SmartTags in Word-64bits, a limit on Word-64 using a 32-bit DLL, rather than some limit in COM API or Logos4 itself?

[Off Topic of SmartTags: And if you are still reading: Would a 64-bit build of Logos4 and/or the SQL subsystem deliver any useful performance gains?]

The Word Smart Tags DLL implements all its functionality by calling the Logos 4 COM API. (This is why Logos 4 must already be running; we felt it would be rude to start Logos 4 in the background whenever you open Word.)

Creating a test program is a good idea. It would probably return the same error codes as the Smart Tag addin (that's loaded in Word), but an additional source of data would still be useful.

The restriction on smart tags in 64-bit Office is an OS limitation: a 64-bit process is unable to load a 32-bit DLL. If we created a separate 64-bit Smart Tag DLL, we could support 64-bit Office, but it would complicate the installer for a rare situation (64-bit Offfice is not installed by default, and Microsoft recommends against it).

A 64-bit build of Logos 4 would probably eliminate Out of Memory Exceptions because it would increase the available address space from 2GB to 16TB. (Even if you have 32GB of RAM, Logos 4 is limited to 2GB due to the limitations of 32-bit processes, and the actual limit is closer to 1GB due to the overhead of .NET and other DLLs that are loaded.) However, allowing the application to use an (effectively) unlimited amount of memory isn't necessarily a good idea; on most systems it could cause a huge amount of paging, which would drastically slow down the application. Additionally, slowly leaking memory would slow down each .NET garbage collection, causing the application to run slower and slower over time. Sticking with a 32-bit process is probably better because it requires us to keep our long-term memory usage low, leading to an overall better application.

Furthermore, in a 64-bit process, each pointer (or reference, in .NET) is 64 bits, rather than 32, which (simplistically) doubles the memory usage of the application. The 32-bit process might run just fine on a computer with 2GB of RAM,  but the 64-bit process could require 3-4GB just to achieve the same performance. This may not be a big concern once all new desktop computers are shipping with 8GB+ of RAM, but it's still an issue right now.

It's not clear that running a 64-bit process delivers obvious immediate performance gains. In some cases, loading and processing 32-bit data incurs a performance penalty.

Finally, it complicates the installer (and doubles the download size!) to deliver both 32-bit and 64-bit builds of the application. We may consider it again in future, but right now, delivering a single 32-bit build of the application seems like the optimal approach.

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 6:13 AM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

The Word Smart Tags DLL implements all its functionality by calling the Logos 4 COM API. (This is why Logos 4 must already be running; we felt it would be rude to start Logos 4 in the background whenever you open Word.)

Creating a test program is a good idea. It would probably return the same error codes as the Smart Tag addin (that's loaded in Word), but an additional source of data would still be useful.

Bradley,

Thanks for the feedback and answers.

I would knock up a quick COM API stub myself, but I wont have time until after Friday due to work demands. I expect someone there could knock out the few lines required in VC# or VB. It only needs a single button and a text box. Attempt to make an app object to the COM API and pull back the version number and the text to John 3:16 or something. It will be interesting if it would then work for Rosie. If yes, look into Word issues. If not, maybe Reflection and manually loading the DLL would give you more complete error reporting than calling it "directly". I expect you have all the good debugging toys and goodies there.

Re the possible 64-bit build of Logos4: This sounds like a task to give one of the interns to explore. Rather than add it into the main installer, make a 64bit one as a seperate build. It could warn if you had less than 6 GB ram or whatever. As for any memory leaking or related, I'm sure there is a way to get on top of that too. I skim-read your blog post of memory-leaks and memory-presure for bitmap graphics. There must be some way to let some of the Logos modules or code-blocks to track their usage in some ways for your internal builds. I get "Not Responding" messages very common when I open something new, so maybe thats a memory thing and garbage-collection needs to run or something. I have yet to attempt to monitor the threads or memory usage of the Logos4 application. Maybe I'll do so some time ...

Sorry to other readers here, for all the geek-speak.

Regards,

Jim.

Posts 3676
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 12:43 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

The restriction on smart tags in 64-bit Office is an OS limitation: a 64-bit process is unable to load a 32-bit DLL. If we created a separate 64-bit Smart Tag DLL, we could support 64-bit Office, but it would complicate the installer for a rare situation (64-bit Offfice is not installed by default, and Microsoft recommends against it).

Hi Bradley,

I'm running Vista 64, even though I'm running Office 32. I think Rosie may be doing the same, if I remember right. Is there any possibility that the 64bit OS is throwing things off?

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 1:54 PM | Locked

BillS:

Hi Bradley,

I'm running Vista 64, even though I'm running Office 32. I think Rosie may be doing the same, if I remember right. Is there any possibility that the 64bit OS is throwing things off?

I run Win 7 64 bit version and Office 2010 32 bit (Czech version Smile ) and it works.

Bohuslav

Posts 3676
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 2:52 PM | Locked

Bohuslav Wojnar:

I run Win 7 64 bit version and Office 2010 32 bit (Czech version Smile ) and it works.

Hi Bohuslav,

Good to hear for W7... Anyone running Vista 64 with L4 Smart Tags successfully installed?

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 3676
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 2:58 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

OK, so much for that theory. It's maybe a typelib registration error... or... something else. I'll take a look and see what might be wrong.

Beta 11 installed.... still no wavy line... log attached.
3603.SmartTag.log

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 8132
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 4:21 PM | Locked

BillS:

I'm running Vista 64, even though I'm running Office 32. I think Rosie may be doing the same, if I remember right. Is there any possibility that the 64bit OS is throwing things off?

A 64-bit OS does make COM registration work slightly differently, so it is a possibility that it's causing the problem. However, we've tested here with Vista x64 and Windows 7 x64 and can't reproduce the problem.

Posts 8132
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 4:31 PM | Locked

Hi Bill,

I've written a standalone diagnostic program to check various registry values and try to start the Logos 4 COM server in the same way that the smart tag does; it may provide some additional information on what's preventing the smart tag working on your system.

To run it, open a regular command prompt and execute the program. It will print its results to the screen by default; you can send them to a file by running (for example):
    SmartTagDiagnostics.exe > C:\Temp\Diagnostics.txt 

It will try to communicate with Logos 4, so please have Logos 4 running before you run the diagnostics. You can then post the Diagnostics.txt file here.

2664.SmartTagDiagnostics.zip

Posts 18824
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 6:03 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

Hi Bill,

I've written a standalone diagnostic program to check various registry values and try to start the Logos 4 COM server in the same way that the smart tag does; it may provide some additional information on what's preventing the smart tag working on your system.

To run it, open a regular command prompt and execute the program. It will print its results to the screen by default; you can send them to a file by running (for example):
    SmartTagDiagnostics.exe > C:\Temp\Diagnostics.txt 

It will try to communicate with Logos 4, so please have Logos 4 running before you run the diagnostics. You can then post the Diagnostics.txt file here.

2664.SmartTagDiagnostics.zip

Thanks, Bradley. I've run this on my machine, and here's my diagnostics.txt file with a couple of failures in it towards the end:

1108.diagnostics.txt

Posts 3676
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 1 2010 9:27 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

Hi Bill,

I've written a standalone diagnostic program to check various registry values and try to start the Logos 4 COM server in the same way that the smart tag does; it may provide some additional information on what's preventing the smart tag working on your system.

To run it, open a regular command prompt and execute the program. It will print its results to the screen by default; you can send them to a file by running (for example):
    SmartTagDiagnostics.exe > C:\Temp\Diagnostics.txt 

It will try to communicate with Logos 4, so please have Logos 4 running before you run the diagnostics. You can then post the Diagnostics.txt file here.

2664.SmartTagDiagnostics.zip

Thanks, Bradley. Here's my log...
5736.Diagnostics.txt

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 8132
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 10:40 AM | Locked

Rosie & Bill,

Both your log files show the same error message as before (which I'm unable to duplicate here so far). I've added some more diagnostics to the program. Please run the attached version and report back--thanks!

5707.SmartTagDiagnostics.zip

Posts 3676
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 12:50 PM | Locked

Hi Bradley,

Thanks, & DONE!

2783.Diagnostics.txt

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 8132
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 1:48 PM | Locked

Hi Bill,

We have finally managed to reproduce the problem here. The fundamental issue is a bug in Windows Vista related to UAC and per-user COM registration.

We know of three workarounds:

  1. Upgrade to Windows 7 (this is what I was primarily testing with, and is why I couldn't reproduce the bug)
  2. Enable UAC
  3. Install the KB971138 hotfix for this issue (we haven't tested this, but it's supposed to correct this problem)

Posts 336
Icarus38376 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 1:55 PM | Locked

Yea Bradley !!!!!!!

Yea Bill !!!!!!!

Praise the Lord!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posts 3676
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 2:27 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:
Install the KB971138 hotfix for this issue (we haven't tested this, but it's supposed to correct this problem)

L4 Smart Tags are now working on my system. The hotfix worked.

PTL! Bradley, you're the best! Thanks SO MUCH!

Blessings to you!

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 8132
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 2:42 PM | Locked

BillS:

PTL! Bradley, you're the best! Thanks SO MUCH!

You're welcome. A lot of the thanks belongs to Ed and Todd who helped track down and reproduce this problem. (Ed, in particular, discovered the underlying cause and found the hotfix you applied.)

Posts 3676
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 2:55 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

You're welcome. A lot of the thanks belongs to Ed and Todd who helped track down and reproduce this problem. (Ed, in particular, discovered the underlying cause and found the hotfix you applied.)

Hi Bradley, Ed, & Todd, I can see why Logos is such a great place to work.  You folks make a great team. You're the best!

Blessings to you all,

Bill

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 60
LogosEmployee
Ed Ball (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 2 2010 3:02 PM | Locked

And let's not forget to thank Chris Jackson for blogging about the problem, Microsoft for creating the hotfix, and Google for finding them both.

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