Pricing so high on public domain resources?

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This post has 152 Replies | 5 Followers

Posts 589
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 4:22 AM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:

First off most of them don't even understand that the Logos system is better, they have never even worked with it, secondly they are not against the Logos mark-up on the copyrighted books.

But due to the high cost they are not even interested in Logos.  Their motives are based on the fact that they think the mark-up on public domain books are just too high.



I have tried to introduce many people to Logos over the years, people in my Sunday School class, people that I teach that are taking bible courses, and fellow pastors. The most common complaint that needs to be overcome is the cost of getting started with a decent package, the public domain stuff never comes up. I think your friends mislead you in saying their main problem is the public domain works, I don't think they will pay for the copyrighted material either, if they are poor. Also without a base package the public domain works don't really do much on their own to show off the power of Logos, which is the reason everything does cost more. Bob P has himself stated that there are cheaper alternatives out there for the market you feel needs to be reached. Why do you feel Logos Has to reach this market?

You are right that community pricing pays for the basic cost to produce a product, but that leaves no profit to pay for customer service or for the free engine Logos provides us. Just look at you recent example of Thomas Aquinas book Catena Aurea, I was excited by the extensive linking to my other works on the early church fathers so I can read Aquinas's quotes in context, try and do that with one of your free packages. But then again I don't know many people who are in my church who would read Aquinas even if I gave it to them for Christmas for freeBig Smile

I would be interested in your perception of your friends library, how many books do most own? Most people who balk at buying bible software are people in my experience who don't read very much. Bible study if nothing else require someone who is willing to read and think.

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 6:08 AM

The thing that must be remembered is that if public domain resources don't sell at a higher price, no revenue is produced.  The investment has already been made but does not produce a return.  We must assume, then, that enough people are interested in the public domain resources in Logos format to pay the asking price.  And what has not been mentioned is that many of these resources are included in various base packages so they can be had very affordably if you are willing to pony up for the base package in which they reside.

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 7:57 AM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:

George, yes that was what I was talking about, and that is why  I said you were a funny guy, and yes I knew you were serious, that is why it is so funny!

Your brother in Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

I'm still serious about that.  "It's better to light a candle than to curse the darkness."  Set up your foundation.


יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 8:13 AM

Well, I deal with 100's and 100's of people over a year teaching them how to study using bible study software about half of the have already bought programs and have put their money where there mouth is.

Like I said right now I feel like I am beating a dead horse, and my arms are too tired.  I almost didn't even answer your post, but I just wanted to let you know that my dealing with more people does not fit your example.

Now I must stop I am feeling a little bit like I am in an all star wrestling match and like I am being tag teamed and didn't know about it.  :-)

One last point, my desire to use Logos with these folks is because it is the best!!!  They already give the engine away now if they just had a low cost public domain library people could try it out for themselves.

I really believe in Logos, I am disabled from getting hit by a truck while riding bikes with my son, but I just checked it out, my wife has allowed me to buy over 3,300 dollars on Logos resources in the last 2 and 1/2 years.  For us that is a huge investment.  

During that same period of time we have spent  about 1000.00 -1500.00 on new cars and we live in a motor home to keep out costs down. We believe in Logos!  But I still believe their public domain resources cost too much!

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

Posts 19333
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 12:57 PM

George Somsel:
If this is really what God has laid on your heart, you should do something about it.  I suggest you might set up a foundation to underwrite the purchase of Logos software by needy pastors in 3rd world countries.  If you do that, I imagine that there are others who would be willing to assist in that effort.

I have for a long time wished that Logos would set up such a foundation. I would definitely donate to it to help get Logos resources to needy pastors and seminary professors in 3rd world countries. Logos has in its mission statement "It's our responsibility to ensure that the investment in technology we can afford to make because we serve the western church pays dividends for the whole world." and "to make Bible study resources more accessible to the church in developing countries." But currently it is not very affordable to people in those countries. I realize that Logos is a business and not a missions organization, but they clearly have a heart for making Bible study resources more accessible to those who normally couldn't afford it. I think internally they wrestle with this -- Dan would like to see them do more to reach out to the third world and Bob would rather see Logos users do the charity and let Logos stay focused on being a business. He also sees the reality of the fact that Logos requires a pretty high end computer to run and most of the people who might benefit from a charitable foundation's contribution (or subsidizing) of Logos resources wouldn't have the hardware to be able to run it. I say: Not a problem -- make the foundation also help provide computers to run Logos on. But Bob also points out that the Internet infrastructure still isn't there in most third world countries to be able to handle Logos's update requirements. Well, distributing on DVDs a base package (customized for the particular region: include the African Bible Commentary for Africa, for example) and having people run offline could be a possibility. I know they have their hands full with other things right now, but I'd love to see some more progress towards really achieving their mission statement in its entirety. And I'd love to see charitable minded users jump in and help them realize that goal. If we can spend $3000 and more on our Logos resources, just think how much it could help in poorer parts of the world if we restrained our buying for ourselves just a bit and put aside 10% of our Logos book budget towards a foundation.

Jim, I'm not sure if this would help the 100's of folks you've helped to get into Bible software, because they might simply be less well-off folks in the US who wouldn't benefit from a foundation specifically targeted towards benefiting the "third world." But George's idea, which I took in all seriousness, despite some joking elsewhere in his post, is a really good one!

Posts 236
Michael March | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 3:59 PM

Here is why I think the pricing is not too high.  Having just received Catena Aurea, which is public domain, I am happy to pay more money for the privilege of having the entire thing linked to my Bible, and beyond that, linked to patristic resources I own.  So when I see a quote that Aquinas has put in, say from Augustine or Chrysostom, I also see if I have the original resource as it shows up as a hyperlink, and I'm one click away from seeing it in it's entirety.  THAT is worth money to me.  Could I do that work without the link?  Yes.  But I'm happy to pay for being able to have all those tags put in there for my convenience.

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Posts 1674
Paul N | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 4:09 PM

Here's an interesting explanation from Bob P. on e-books and value from the 2010 Tools of Change Conference from a Logos standpoint.

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 2 2010 4:12 PM

Jim VanSchoonhoven:
Well, I deal with 100's and 100's of people over a year teaching them how to study using bible study software about half of the have already bought programs and have put their money where there mouth is.

Jim, as I wrote above, I do appreciate and share your heart for leadership training among those who are (financially) poor.

However, I think the idea of offering Logos to them via public domain works vis a vis copyrighted works, is probably not the path to meet your goal.

What may work, however, is the foundation idea that has been suggested by several already. As I wrote before, I don't have the expertise to set up or run such a foundation, I would like to support one, as I'm able, and possibly even sit on a foundation board, share some dreams and coffee with the folks at 1313 Commercial Ave, and maybe even a few other things.

Maybe a foundation isn't the right way to go. Maybe something simpler: an incorporated leadership development ministry whose primary goal would be to get software in the hands of 3rd world church leaders and provide simple training on how to take full advantage of it. As such it would look more like a missionary organization than a foundation.

But that discussion would be for brighter minds than mine -- or at least more informed ones.

Having met with the folks in the Logos offices, I'm optimistic that there is something to talk about here, maybe something big.

BTW, I'm guessing that some of this is being monitored by them already, and I invite any of them to contact me privately about how such a wild idea might get legs (maybe even wings).

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 1
Edward D. Andrews | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 1 2021 2:56 AM

Let's not act like you have some person sitting their tagging the book over days and months. It is done with software in minutes, if not seconds. Kindle does the same thing in 30 seconds.

Posts 8474
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 1 2021 8:02 AM

Edward D. Andrews:

Let's not act like you have some person sitting their tagging the book over days and months. It is done with software in minutes, if not seconds. Kindle does the same thing in 30 seconds.

You do realize the last post was made way back in 2010, right?


Ps. Don’t worry I think today (or tomorrow) is the day of the dead in Mexico so some threads tend to be resurrected during this month 😂😂😂

Posts 2900
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 2 2021 9:00 AM

Obviously, the tagging needed to have the public domain book work with the rest of the Logos Library is where most of the cost is.  Also, if a book is in a language other than English, then there are additional costs to make it work.

On the other hand, if you do not want to pay for the tagging cost, just make it into a personal book for yourself.  It will cost you nothing to have it in you Logos library and it will be searchable.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 33739
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 2 2021 3:10 PM

Mike Childs:
Obviously, the tagging needed to have the public domain book work

Don't forget the work necessary to get the resource into text form and FL practice of double entry to minimize errors.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1866
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 2 2021 3:27 PM

Having created and shared PB's I have made from Internet Archive, I respect the work it takes to do it well. Of course Faithlife has tools and internal documentation to make this easier than it is for us, but to do it well does indeed take much more work than it would for some other formats.

As a result, yes, the base price for many books in the public domain is more than many other formats. So steward your resources appropriately - and look for if/when a resource you want is in a larger collection or base package where it quite often is more affordable.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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