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Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 12 2011 12:58 PM

Sometimes cutting edge means fewer customers during the revolution...wonder how long that can last.

Posts 3659
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 12 2011 1:03 PM

Rene Atchley:

Sometimes cutting edge means fewer customers during the revolution.

True. BUt it depends on the answer to a different question: in the "revolution," what's going to drive smaller churches to have internet in the sanctuary----ever?

As pastor of one of those small churches, I'm not seeing one, even tho' as a retired geek I'd be more inclined than anyone else in the church.

Geeked

Rene Atchley:
wonder how long that can last.

Or even if it has to be that way if they choose to support off-line users.Smile

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
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Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 12 2011 1:14 PM

I get it Bill...at least partially.  There is this new fangled great technology that would make congregational life more effective and efficient if everyone would just buy it, install several upgrades, pay more bills, and spend lots more time learning the steep education curve.  One wonders however if market revolutions are more often led by the consumer looking for cheap solutions or fancy pants carpetbaggers with all their new contraptions.  A slightly skewed story but I think you get the point.

Posts 3659
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 12 2011 2:44 PM

Hi Rene,

Actually, I'm an alpha tester, & a current user of a competing product, which has been selected by numerous tiny churches to use in projection of worship music, & announcements, & even enrichment to sermons.  We've used it in both churches I've pastored for music, announcements, & Scriptures. Older eyes in both congregations have appreciated larger fonts than are practical in our bulletin. When they reailze they can read it, even the most conservative have been quite receptive--even appreciative.

I'm finding Proclaim to be very intuitive--as much so as the product we use & had selected for its intuitive interface. Why did we pick one with an intuitive interface being a key criteria? On the day the usual AV person is sick or out of town, it's pretty handy to be able to train someone (often a teen) in 5-10 minutes to be able to project for us.

Our other key criteria was cost. Tiny church. Very low budget. Many of the non-linear packages we reviewed had per-user license fees. The one we selected offered a site license--anyone that needs it to prepare slides for weekly projection can have a copy on the machine they use.

If Logos confirms publicly what they've said in the alpha forum, for my tiny church, Proclaim would've been very attractively priced.

Edit / Add: As far as upgraded software goes, the alpha seems to be doing what L4 does: upgrade automagically when you sign in. I'd be surprised if they had a fee involved, given their history on L3 & L4. If you want to use pre-prepared slides (backgrounds, etc.), I believe that may be another story--same principle in L3 / L4, charging for the resources...

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 3659
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 12 2011 2:49 PM

Rene Atchley:
I get it Bill

BTW, love the cat pic... we have a Main Coon who looks almost identical... same M on the forehead... ours is a long hair.

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 12 2011 2:56 PM

Well thank you very much.

Posts 89
Shawn Nichols | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 14 2011 1:53 PM

I pastor a small (100+) and conservative church. We sing from hymn books. But we use projection occasionally during the service (missionary presentations, announcements, themes for our meetings) and about 2/3 the time for notes when I'm preaching. We also have internet in our auditorium, primarily for our sound guys to connect to the other network services to post .mp3 audio. We deliver more messages via .mp3 than CD.

I said all that to say that, in concept, I think proclaim is a great idea. I'm not sure we'll need it as a church (I don't do beta testing). But I believe the web and cloud computing to be eventual for all of us (maybe not in our churches ... but in life). I think that it's smart for Logos, a company with an established income stream, to begin thinking of other products in the same industry that can leverage their profit model and still prepare them for the future.

Whether they succeed with Proclaim or not, I'm excited to invest in products with a company that is forward thinking enough to consider future products and technology. It makes me think they'll be around for a while.

Posts 228
Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 14 2011 4:15 PM

I'm very interested in Proclaim. As for cloud computing everything is starting to shift that way and I believe Logos is trying to look forward in developing this. As a small Church that has just started we have a very limited budget but with the price I've seen for other worship software I believe Logos can come in with a very good price and I believe from what the videos show they will be looking to make more of the money from additional resources, just like the Bible software. I use Logos4 Mac and am very pleased with it. I have been using it since the alpha and yes there is room for improvement but I think it's really good software. Is it perfect, no, but it keeps getting better.

How do you become an Alpha tester for Proclaim? I really don't want to keep waiting because we really need the presentation software and we were about to purchase a different one until we heard about Proclaim. I really don't know if we can wait until summer for this though. We might just have to keep using Keynote until thenZip it!.

Stephen

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 14 2011 8:01 PM

DominicM:

Bob Pritchett:

We know some churches have no Internet access, and Proclaim probably won't be the best tool for them."

Thats 95% of the UK, and over 80% of US/Canada market surrendered. Seems a VERY strange markrting decision..

We actually surveyed our customers, and discovered that 50% attend a church with WiFi. (And 25% don't know if their church has it.) Now bigger churches have more members, so 50% of our users isn't the same as 50% of churches, but it's a good sign that a lot of churches have it. Moreover, a lot of mobile devices have it -- cell phones, iPads, etc.

There are lots of offline "let me bring the USB drive in on Sunday morning" solutions. So we're being quite intentional about being cloud based: Proclaim is _designed_ for Internet access, and much of what's cool about it (you'll see soon!) is cloud related. We're working to make the offline scenario even more robust than promised to the Alpha users, but it's intentionally not a primary feature. This is simply a cloud-based product, and everything about it was designed for that. (And to take advantage of the cloud in ways offline apps simply can't.)

 

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 14 2011 8:14 PM

Bob Pritchett:
50% of our users isn't the same as 50% of churches

 

I'd pretty much guarantee also that 50% of survey respondents doesn't equate to 50% of users.

 

Funnily, I don't remember this survey (or survey question) and I'm pretty sure that I've responded to each of the surveys over the last couple of years - but, my memory ain't what it used to be.

 

[Edit to add:] Even though the end product will most likely not be useful for us in the short-term, I am looking at how we can access the internet in all our churches/chapels.... for the updating of software and for the transfer of presentations. I'm also sure that there is currently a market for a product like Proclaim and that the market will only grow.

Posts 2691
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 7:12 AM

 

Bob Pritchett:
discovered that 50% attend a church with WiFi.

Well I would say those are rose-tinted figures, but will give you benefit, hopefully you havent had multiple submissions from the same church.

 

Bob Pritchett:
Moreover, a lot of mobile devices have it -- cell phones, iPads, etc.

yeah but have you ever tried connecting those to a projector..

Bob Pritchett:
We're working to make the offline scenario even more robust than promised to the Alpha users, but it's intentionally not a primary feature.

Thats good news, but what happens when you get to the service and there a last minute notice of vital imortance, without internet I understand it cannout be commmunitated on display..  dont get me wrong, agree with cloud for bulk of preparation.. but disagree on only cloud edits

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 3659
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 7:40 AM

DominicM:
agree with cloud for bulk of preparation.. but disagree on only cloud edits

Yes +1

 

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 13348
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 9:17 AM

This might seem a naive question (I'm in the 95% of Brits mentioned earlier), but why would you want internet access in church? Live broadcasting services I can understand, and hooking up the office I can understand, but none of that equates to a publicly accessible WiFi net.

Posts 21871
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 10:04 AM

Hi Mark

As I see it,  the issue is less about publicly-accessible WiFi but more as to whether the computer used to project slides during a service is Internet-connected.

Some of the uses I have seen for this include:

  • playing YouTube videos during a service - saves having to download them beforehand
  • streaming live content - a minister I know showed the service from the Cenotaph during the last Remembrance Day service
  • hosting an after-school club for school children which included Internet access - so some form of community project. A similar idea would be providing an Internet cafe for people to drop in and use

So there are reasons for doing this - whether they justify the expense in some cases is another question!

Graham

Posts 1202
Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 16 2011 11:00 AM

Churches that are within reach of a cell system might consider a MiFi-like device to enable modest Internet connectivity for a few devices...after the initial investment, the recurring cost isn't outrageous.  If you are fortunate to be able to receive 4G, the throughput is usually adequate to most needs--but I'd probably not open that MiFi up for public use since most plans have a data cap, and it would just take one person watching NetFlix//running peer-to-peer sharing during a service to use up all the minutes.

Regarding Mark Barnes' question on why offer WiFi publicly, the church I attend is really wrestling with that.  The office has WiFi, but they won't give out the passphrase--which I find irritating since I help pay that bill and would like to sync Logos.  However, a deeper divide is that our church members don't embrace the use of digital devices (cellphones/laptops/iPads/etc) as Bible replacements during public gatherings.  They aren't banned, but they are clearly frowned up--peer pressure.  That doesn't seem to be a problem when folks Tweet or check Facebook from their cellphones though...Wink

-- Perhaps the digital revolution will change the form of services in the future.  I'd love to change the form of our small groups--leverage the information access possible through the internet to get away from lecture and to more of a participatory environment where folks can interact more to ensure the truth of scripture is applied in their lives.  In this vein, I really wish there was a church license for Logos so that I could level the playing field of available tools/resources and make them commonly available during a small group.

 Anyway, back to the OP's topic...

Posts 117
Kenny Larsen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 6:45 AM

Hi Mark,

The other thing to bear in mind is that depending on the layout of the church building etc. The church office which may well have Wifi for work purposes during the week sometimes reaches much of the building anyway, so it may be unintentionally there in some buildings.

 

Posts 2691
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 1:37 PM

How do I explain this without sounding patronising???

Most of the churches in the UK are Victorian or earlier, before phones were popular, most "church offices" in the UK are not in the churches themselves, in fact most have no church office let alone phone line to provide DSL.   For most chuches in the UK, the pastor/minister's study or church office is a room in the minister's house, which can be miles from the church..

There is also a significant percent who have no fixed abode, they rent buildings or school halls purely for meeting on sunday morning, and then meet in houses mid-week, our church fits this model..

I appreciate this is different in the USA and recent UK purpose built churches, and the larger megachurches which it seems like you are aiming at... but am sure in the US you also will have these same issues in small towns/rural locations

There may be potential to get 3g/HDSA internet via a dongle but the cost/GB is very expensive here in the UK.

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 117
Kenny Larsen | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 17 2011 1:58 PM

Hi Dominic,

Just to clarify I am UK based, and I will accept that a significant proportion (probably most) will have the issue you describe. However there is a growing number of churches utilising newer or non-purpose built buildings, including rented places, especially outside of the mainstream denominations and church plants. Although the % of these may be small they do exist and may be an ideal place for something such as this where the facilities do already exist.

I accept though that many of the traditional buildings are unsuitable, especially given the thickness of some of the walls!

Kenny

<EDIT> Just read your last but one paragraph, it was these UK churches I was thinking of! Sorry!</EDIT>

Posts 44
Ben Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 11:26 AM

I am the minister of a congregation that is a little under 100.  We have internet here in the office and it is set up on WiFi for my laptop and a few others (i.e. committees, treasurer, etc.).  I can see how beneficial proclaim will be for us.

Addressing a public network matter, I do wonder if you will be able to push information out to individuals from the cached information.  That way you could set up a network without connection to the internet and push everything out from the cached.  That would be very interesting.

Finally, there are a lot of comments on here about the cloud and they tend to be pretty negative overall.  Whether or not one likes the cloud concept, it is the future of computing technology.  Everything is going to be cloud based with time and the need for local hard drives will be completely eliminated.  Microsoft gets this with Skydrive and Google gets it with their Apps suits which includes their docs.  I use dropbox, box.net, mozy and a ton of other cloud features.

I see Proclaim as Logos again leading the way into the new generation of technology.  Proclaim is the future of computing and the future of church presentation software.  Considering how many people we have who have smartphones and other such connected devices (in such a small congregation), this could be a great tool!!!  The cloud and online functionality is ideal for us when we have so many people who work to put our worship service together and I think others will find it to be the same.  Thanks Logos!!!

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 19 2011 4:35 PM

Graham Criddle:

Hi Thomas

My understanding (from Alpha testing) is that it will be possible to run a presentation in "cached" mode to cater for loss of Internet connection.

However, the process of preparing the presentation will be cloud-based and I am not aware of any current (not even sure about planned) mechanism to use thumbdrives to transfer them from one computer to another.

Graham

How did you get an Alpha to it? Where could I signup for an Alpha. Our church could REALLY use this right now for a project, so I'd jump at an Alpha of it!

Thanks!

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

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