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Posts 23
Conquer | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jun 18 2011 3:15 PM

I'm writing an article on the book of Joel. For the Hebrew text, I want to use academic transliteration of the text. Can Logos do this, and if so, how does it work? 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 6:01 AM

like this - you need a resource that contains transliterated text (those that have additional info beyond what you see immediately on opening will have a Display button, there you can select):

but note that I used the ESV reverse interlinear to show you, where word order may not be the same as the original Hebrew - the reason being that afaik I don't have a "forward interlinear" resource for the OT which contains transliteration. My version of BHS unfortunately doesn't, but I hope you get the idea.

Mick

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 6:32 AM

Conquer:
For the Hebrew text, I want to use academic transliteration of the text. Can Logos do this, and if so, how does it work?

• Go to Program Settings/Preferences and set the transliteration scheme to Academic (I seem to remember the default being something else).

• Open your Hebrew-English interlinear (I don't think there is more than one?).

• Do like Mick showed you.

• Then comes the copying part, which I am very unsure about (and I don't have Logos open right now so I can't experiment). I know there was thread recently where someone was having trouble with this, but I don't remember exactly what the problem was or if a solution was found or not, and I can't seem to find the thread right now. Try it out, and if you run into trouble as well, come back, and I'm sure someone else will know more.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 7:03 AM

fgh:
Then comes the copying part, which I am very unsure about (and I don't have Logos open right now so I can't experiment).

I simply took some text from the ESV transliteration, ctrl-c and ctrl-v to test. It worked to paste into Word 2007 and it seems to work also here: Normal 0 21 false false false DE X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4

hhě   ḥā·sîl   ʾā·ḵǎl.

     5     hā·qî·ṣû,   šik·kô·rîm, û ḇeḵû,

w ihê·li·lû, kāl   šō·ṯê   yā·yin,

          ʿǎl   j    ʿā·sîs,

kî     niḵ·rǎṯ   mi ḵěm pî.

     6     kî k  ḡôy   ʿā·lā(h)   ʿǎl î ʾǎrṣ,

kʿā·ṣûm w ʾên mis·pār;

          lw šin·nāy   ʾǎr·yē(h)’ šin·nê,

û   l   meṯǎl·leʿôṯ     lā·ḇî(ʾ).

     7         śām lšǎm·mā(h) î gǎp̄n

û liqeṣā·p̄ā(h) î meʾē·nāṯ  ;

              ḥā·śōp̄   āh ḥǎśāp̄ w hiš·lîḵ    ;

hā śā·rî·ḡê     hil·bî·nû.



h

ch. 2:25; Ps. 78:46

i

[Isa. 24:11]

j

ch. 3:18; Isa. 49:26; Amos 9:13

k

ch. 2:2

l

[Rev. 9:7, 8]

m

[ver. 12]

 

EDIT: this Normal xx-line appears often in this forum if people paste text from someplace - I can't even see it in the edit mode to take it away, but at least the text showed it works, including even footnotes and references. Obvioisly someone could show from a/the real interlinear.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 7:19 AM

fgh:
Go to Program Settings/Preferences and set the transliteration scheme to Academic

Good catch! Conquer, if you don't know how to do this:

fgh:
Open your Hebrew-English interlinear (I don't think there is more than one?)

There is the http://www.logos.com/product/2056/lexham-hebrew-english-interlinear-bible - otherwise one needs to verify the word order from the reverse interlinear, which might be some efffort if it's the whole book of Joel.

Hope this helps.

Mick

 

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 23
Conquer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 7:05 PM

This is very helpful. Problem with the interlinear is that you get the words in English order and sometimes jumbled up too. So it'll be hard work to get it exactly right [as you have to for a publication]. Is there any resource that has a transliteration of the Hebrew text in the Hebrew order? That would be really cool. 

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 7:16 PM

Conquer:
Problem with the interlinear is that you get the words in English order

That would be a reverse interlinear. An interlinear follows the original text.

Conquer:
Is there any resource that has a transliteration of the Hebrew text in the Hebrew order?

Yes, like I said there is one real Hebrew-English interlinear. Mick included the link just above your last post. It's included in some of the base packages.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 8:06 PM

Conquer:

I'm writing an article on the book of Joel. For the Hebrew text, I want to use academic transliteration of the text. Can Logos do this, and if so, how does it work? 

Why use transliteration when you can use the real thing?  Frankly I can hardly read transliteration.  I generally just find out where it's from and go straight to the Hebrew -- also, NEVER USE AN INTERLINEAR !

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 23
Conquer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 20 2011 5:36 AM

Ideally, yes! But using Hebrew alphabet makes it inaccessible for those who don't read that. I like Biblical Studies to be as accessible as possible to all. Wish we could have a simple system of transliteration into the Roman alphabet - that would make things SO much easier for everyone, authors and readers alike. And it's not hard to do. But I have to conform to journals' requirements. 

Posts 23
Conquer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 20 2011 5:38 AM

Thanks - I've got it sorted now :) You still to change word order from right-to-left to left-to-right for it to make sense in English, but at least all the transliteration is there. Great!! Thank you everyone for your help. 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 20 2011 6:04 AM

Conquer:

Thanks - I've got it sorted now :) ... all the transliteration is there. Great!! Thank you everyone for your help. 

You're welcome, glad it's working for you!

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 20 2011 6:25 AM

Can I suggest an easier method?

  1. Use the Copy Bible Verses tool to copy Joel to the clipboard.
  2. Paste the text into Logos' microsite, www.transliterate.com
  3. Copy the resulting text back to the clipboard

The resulting text is LtoR instead or RtoL, but I presume you can transform this in Word.

 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 20 2011 6:50 AM

Conquer:

Ideally, yes! But using Hebrew alphabet makes it inaccessible for those who don't read that. I like Biblical Studies to be as accessible as possible to all. Wish we could have a simple system of transliteration into the Roman alphabet - that would make things SO much easier for everyone, authors and readers alike. And it's not hard to do. But I have to conform to journals' requirements. 

I don't understand how using a transliteration makes it accessible to those who can't read it.  They still can't read it so it still isn't accessible.  The only way to make it accessible to them is to teach them Hebrew, and I assume you're not going to do that so why bother with a half-way measure?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 23
Conquer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 20 2011 1:59 PM

People who can't read Hebrew script, are at least able to pronounce, say, "aretzi", or "lo .. 'od" and recognise the words when they are pointed out again. I have experienced that myself when I used to read theological works before I knew any Hebrew. I began to recognise some words from the transliteration. And see their significance. Had they been written in Hebrew script, I'd have glossed over them completely. So yes, it does make it more accessible. Not entirely in the sense that non-Hebraists can translate it, but at least so that they can recognise it.

Imagine you're in India on holiday. You don't speak Hindi or any of the local dialects, nor do you read Hindi script. And you're driving around trying to find your way back to Delhi. You'd be so happy if at least some of the road signs said 'Delhi' in Roman script. No, it's not the same as speaking and reading Hindi. But it helps a ton compared to the Devanagari script alone which you haven't got a clue about. 

At work I have to speak to a lot of people who speak Punjabi or Urdu. I'm very grateful for having a translator. However, just being to pick out a few words, such as 'yes', 'no', 'good' and 'does that hurt?' makes a huge difference. Compared to not being able to follow anything of the conversation at all. Every little bit helps. And when I write, I want to give as much help as possible to the readers. Also, feeling that they already know a word or two, might JUST make someone think that perhaps this is a language they can learn. I want to give every little bit of help I can. 

Posts 23
Conquer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 20 2011 2:04 PM

Great - works a treat! Thank you very much.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 20 2011 2:17 PM

Conquer:
Imagine you're in India on holiday. You don't speak Hindi or any of the local dialects, nor do you read Hindi script. And you're driving around trying to find your way back to Delhi. You'd be so happy if at least some of the road signs said 'Delhi' in Roman script. No, it's not the same as speaking and reading Hindi. But it helps a ton compared to the Devanagari script alone which you haven't got a clue about. 

I would hardly think that having "Delhi" in Roman letters is simply transliterating since it is also what it is called in English (and probably other languages as well).  If I were going to India and intending to be on my own without a guide, I would think the only prudent thing to do would be to learn the script and a few words and phrases to enable me to be on my own.  If I write Greek or Hebrew, I am writing it for those who already understand it to some degree -- it isn't there simply to impress.  I see no point in dumbing down one's presentation or attempting to impress the reader.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 23
Conquer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 21 2011 4:48 PM

You are right - the difference is that you are writing only for those who know Hebrew or can at least read the script. You're exclusivist, high-brow, "First you guys learn Hebrew, then we can have a conversation". Anyone else can forget it and go somewhere else.

What if your doctor did that? "Take these pills. I'll tell you in medical jargon what they do and what's wrong with you, if you don't understand that, tough. Go to med school and come back in four years' time." I bet you'd find another doctor who can explain things to you in a way that's easy to understand. 

Same for me in Biblical Studies. I want to write for every beloved child of God who is interested in learning more, whether they have a gift for languages or not. I try to serve all in the best way I can. Those who know Hebrew are not going to miss out in any way - they have the BHS at the ready and will find in Hebrew script what they want. Those who don't know Hebrew will benefit from transliteration. It's like Paul trying to be all things to all people. Serve people in a way they can understand, not demand they learn Hebrew first. Just like you talk to children in a way they can understand, not demand they grow up first and then you'll talk to them. 

I'm so glad God gives us the gospel in a language we can understand. In his grace he has given us the Bible in English, and in many, many other languages. To reach as many as possible with the wonderful news of Jesus. I bet you heard the gospel in your own language, whichever that was, before you learnt Hebrew. We are called to reflect God's character. And this is a small way to do that. To serve as many as possible, serving the gospel, serving the Lord.

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 21 2011 5:29 PM

Conquer:
You are right - the difference is that you are writing only for those who know Hebrew or can at least read the script. You're exclusivist, high-brow, "First you guys learn Hebrew, then we can have a conversation". Anyone else can forget it and go somewhere else.

No, you are attempting to say that you will attempt to impress those who know no Hebrew with your erudition by presenting them with transliterated Hebrew which, despite being transliterated, they still don't understand.  You are attempting to set yourself up on a pedestal as an illuminatus so that others can look up to you.  If I write for those who know Hebrew, I write to those who know Hebrew and therefore use Hebrew.  If I write to those who know nothing of Hebrew, I don't mention Hebrew.  Now who is attempting to exclude others?  I would say that you are by writing to those who do not know Hebrew and yet not writing so that those who do not know Hebrew in a manner in which they can understand you.  If you can't explain it so that a child can understand it, you don't understand it yourself.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 23
Conquer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 21 2011 7:09 PM

Let's agree to disagree. Good luck with your work.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 21 2011 8:22 PM

Conquer:

Let's agree to disagree. Good luck with your work.

I once took a continuing education class with a non-American instructor who mistakenly thought we would all have graduate school level Hebrew. More than half the class had no Hebrew at all and only one person was comfortable in Hebrew. It was fun watching a truly educational master readjust - where we needed Hebrew to follow his point, he gave us Hebrew in the original script and walked us through the relevant points of differentiation.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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