Copy Hebrew text in transliteration
I'm writing an article on the book of Joel. For the Hebrew text, I want to use academic transliteration of the text. Can Logos do this, and if so, how does it work?
Comments
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like this - you need a resource that contains transliterated text (those that have additional info beyond what you see immediately on opening will have a Display button, there you can select):
but note that I used the ESV reverse interlinear to show you, where word order may not be the same as the original Hebrew - the reason being that afaik I don't have a "forward interlinear" resource for the OT which contains transliteration. My version of BHS unfortunately doesn't, but I hope you get the idea.
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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Conquer said:
For the Hebrew text, I want to use academic transliteration of the text. Can Logos do this, and if so, how does it work?
• Go to Program Settings/Preferences and set the transliteration scheme to Academic (I seem to remember the default being something else).
• Open your Hebrew-English interlinear (I don't think there is more than one?).
• Do like Mick showed you.
• Then comes the copying part, which I am very unsure about (and I don't have Logos open right now so I can't experiment). I know there was thread recently where someone was having trouble with this, but I don't remember exactly what the problem was or if a solution was found or not, and I can't seem to find the thread right now. Try it out, and if you run into trouble as well, come back, and I'm sure someone else will know more.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
Then comes the copying part, which I am very unsure about (and I don't have Logos open right now so I can't experiment).
I simply took some text from the ESV transliteration, ctrl-c and ctrl-v to test. It worked to paste into Word 2007 and it seems to work also here:
hhě ḥā·sîl ʾā·ḵǎl.
5 hā·qî·ṣû, šik·kô·rîm, û ḇeḵû,
w ihê·li·lû,
kāl šō·ṯê yā·yin,ʿǎl
j
ʿā·sîs,kî niḵ·rǎṯ
mi ḵěm pî.6 kî k ḡôy
ʿā·lā(h) ʿǎl î ʾǎrṣ,kʿā·ṣûm w ʾên mis·pār;
lw
šin·nāy ʾǎr·yē(h)’ šin·nê,û l meṯǎl·leʿôṯ
lā·ḇî(ʾ).7 śām lšǎm·mā(h) î gǎp̄n
û liqeṣā·p̄ā(h) î mṯeʾē·nāṯ
;
ḥā·śōp̄ āh ḥǎśāp̄ w hiš·lîḵ ;hā śā·rî·ḡê
hil·bî·nû.ch. 2:25;
Ps. 78:46[Isa.
24:11]ch. 3:18;
Isa. 49:26; Amos 9:13ch. 2:2
[Rev. 9:7,
8][ver. 12]
EDIT: this Normal xx-line appears often in this forum if people paste text from someplace - I can't even see it in the edit mode to take it away, but at least the text showed it works, including even footnotes and references. Obvioisly someone could show from a/the real interlinear.
Have joy in the Lord!
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fgh said:
Go to Program Settings/Preferences and set the transliteration scheme to Academic
Good catch! Conquer, if you don't know how to do this:
fgh said:Open your Hebrew-English interlinear (I don't think there is more than one?)
There is the http://www.logos.com/product/2056/lexham-hebrew-english-interlinear-bible - otherwise one needs to verify the word order from the reverse interlinear, which might be some efffort if it's the whole book of Joel.
Hope this helps.
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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This is very helpful. Problem with the interlinear is that you get the words in English order and sometimes jumbled up too. So it'll be hard work to get it exactly right [as you have to for a publication]. Is there any resource that has a transliteration of the Hebrew text in the Hebrew order? That would be really cool.
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Conquer said:
Problem with the interlinear is that you get the words in English order
That would be a reverse interlinear. An interlinear follows the original text.
Conquer said:Is there any resource that has a transliteration of the Hebrew text in the Hebrew order?
Yes, like I said there is one real Hebrew-English interlinear. Mick included the link just above your last post. It's included in some of the base packages.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Conquer said:
I'm writing an article on the book of Joel. For the Hebrew text, I want to use academic transliteration of the text. Can Logos do this, and if so, how does it work?
Why use transliteration when you can use the real thing? Frankly I can hardly read transliteration. I generally just find out where it's from and go straight to the Hebrew -- also, NEVER USE AN INTERLINEAR !
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Ideally, yes! But using Hebrew alphabet makes it inaccessible for those who don't read that. I like Biblical Studies to be as accessible as possible to all. Wish we could have a simple system of transliteration into the Roman alphabet - that would make things SO much easier for everyone, authors and readers alike. And it's not hard to do. But I have to conform to journals' requirements.
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Thanks - I've got it sorted now
You still to change word order from right-to-left to left-to-right for it to make sense in English, but at least all the transliteration is there. Great!! Thank you everyone for your help. 0 -
Can I suggest an easier method?
- Use the Copy Bible Verses tool to copy Joel to the clipboard.
- Paste the text into Logos' microsite, www.transliterate.com
- Copy the resulting text back to the clipboard
The resulting text is LtoR instead or RtoL, but I presume you can transform this in Word.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Conquer said:
Ideally, yes! But using Hebrew alphabet makes it inaccessible for those who don't read that. I like Biblical Studies to be as accessible as possible to all. Wish we could have a simple system of transliteration into the Roman alphabet - that would make things SO much easier for everyone, authors and readers alike. And it's not hard to do. But I have to conform to journals' requirements.
I don't understand how using a transliteration makes it accessible to those who can't read it. They still can't read it so it still isn't accessible. The only way to make it accessible to them is to teach them Hebrew, and I assume you're not going to do that so why bother with a half-way measure?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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People who can't read Hebrew script, are at least able to pronounce, say, "aretzi", or "lo .. 'od" and recognise the words when they are pointed out again. I have experienced that myself when I used to read theological works before I knew any Hebrew. I began to recognise some words from the transliteration. And see their significance. Had they been written in Hebrew script, I'd have glossed over them completely. So yes, it does make it more accessible. Not entirely in the sense that non-Hebraists can translate it, but at least so that they can recognise it.
Imagine you're in India on holiday. You don't speak Hindi or any of the local dialects, nor do you read Hindi script. And you're driving around trying to find your way back to Delhi. You'd be so happy if at least some of the road signs said 'Delhi' in Roman script. No, it's not the same as speaking and reading Hindi. But it helps a ton compared to the Devanagari script alone which you haven't got a clue about.
At work I have to speak to a lot of people who speak Punjabi or Urdu. I'm very grateful for having a translator. However, just being to pick out a few words, such as 'yes', 'no', 'good' and 'does that hurt?' makes a huge difference. Compared to not being able to follow anything of the conversation at all. Every little bit helps. And when I write, I want to give as much help as possible to the readers. Also, feeling that they already know a word or two, might JUST make someone think that perhaps this is a language they can learn. I want to give every little bit of help I can.
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Great - works a treat! Thank you very much.
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Conquer said:
Imagine you're in India on holiday. You don't speak Hindi or any of the local dialects, nor do you read Hindi script. And you're driving around trying to find your way back to Delhi. You'd be so happy if at least some of the road signs said 'Delhi' in Roman script. No, it's not the same as speaking and reading Hindi. But it helps a ton compared to the Devanagari script alone which you haven't got a clue about.
I would hardly think that having "Delhi" in Roman letters is simply transliterating since it is also what it is called in English (and probably other languages as well). If I were going to India and intending to be on my own without a guide, I would think the only prudent thing to do would be to learn the script and a few words and phrases to enable me to be on my own. If I write Greek or Hebrew, I am writing it for those who already understand it to some degree -- it isn't there simply to impress. I see no point in dumbing down one's presentation or attempting to impress the reader.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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You are right - the difference is that you are writing only for those who know Hebrew or can at least read the script. You're exclusivist, high-brow, "First you guys learn Hebrew, then we can have a conversation". Anyone else can forget it and go somewhere else.
What if your doctor did that? "Take these pills. I'll tell you in medical jargon what they do and what's wrong with you, if you don't understand that, tough. Go to med school and come back in four years' time." I bet you'd find another doctor who can explain things to you in a way that's easy to understand.
Same for me in Biblical Studies. I want to write for every beloved child of God who is interested in learning more, whether they have a gift for languages or not. I try to serve all in the best way I can. Those who know Hebrew are not going to miss out in any way - they have the BHS at the ready and will find in Hebrew script what they want. Those who don't know Hebrew will benefit from transliteration. It's like Paul trying to be all things to all people. Serve people in a way they can understand, not demand they learn Hebrew first. Just like you talk to children in a way they can understand, not demand they grow up first and then you'll talk to them.
I'm so glad God gives us the gospel in a language we can understand. In his grace he has given us the Bible in English, and in many, many other languages. To reach as many as possible with the wonderful news of Jesus. I bet you heard the gospel in your own language, whichever that was, before you learnt Hebrew. We are called to reflect God's character. And this is a small way to do that. To serve as many as possible, serving the gospel, serving the Lord.
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Conquer said:
You are right - the difference is that you are writing only for those who know Hebrew or can at least read the script. You're exclusivist, high-brow, "First you guys learn Hebrew, then we can have a conversation". Anyone else can forget it and go somewhere else.
No, you are attempting to say that you will attempt to impress those who know no Hebrew with your erudition by presenting them with transliterated Hebrew which, despite being transliterated, they still don't understand. You are attempting to set yourself up on a pedestal as an illuminatus so that others can look up to you. If I write for those who know Hebrew, I write to those who know Hebrew and therefore use Hebrew. If I write to those who know nothing of Hebrew, I don't mention Hebrew. Now who is attempting to exclude others? I would say that you are by writing to those who do not know Hebrew and yet not writing so that those who do not know Hebrew in a manner in which they can understand you. If you can't explain it so that a child can understand it, you don't understand it yourself.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Let's agree to disagree. Good luck with your work.
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Conquer said:
Let's agree to disagree. Good luck with your work.
I once took a continuing education class with a non-American instructor who mistakenly thought we would all have graduate school level Hebrew. More than half the class had no Hebrew at all and only one person was comfortable in Hebrew. It was fun watching a truly educational master readjust - where we needed Hebrew to follow his point, he gave us Hebrew in the original script and walked us through the relevant points of differentiation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Conquer, this has been an interesting thread. I just wanted to say that I prefer the Hebrew script over transliterated script for several reasons. Perhaps the most important for me, is that I find it very difficult to learn the notations for transliterated Hebrew. For instance, I find it extremely frustrating when I read Young’s commentary on Isaiah, and have to try and decipher the transliterated Hebrew. I personally have a huge mental block about the idea of it. The Hebrew alphabet is not that hard to learn (I believe I can teach anyone to read the alphabet in two hours). It is a lot easier than the Cyrillic script, for instance. And both are easier than the multiple notations in the transliterated scripts. Another reason I do not like transliterations, is because one can never quite properly pronounce a large percentage of words in another language when using transliterated text (for instance, those who use transliterated text to learn Spanish are doomed to have just as bad an accent as I do in English). Perhaps you could place the word in Hebrew in parenthesis for those of us who have difficulty with the transliterations. Or the other way around, put the transliteration in parenthesis. George, I do not understand why you are so opposed to interlinear text. I find it really useful for several reasons, even if one may not agree with the definition used by the author of the interlinear. But before I say more, it would be interesting to see why you dislike it. Best, Gregorio
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Thanks, Gregorio. All I really wanted to do was see how you transliterate text, not get into a debate about the pros and cons. It's about journal editors' requirements, not my preferences. Of course FOR MYSELF I'd prefer Hebrew every time. No dispute there. But it's an absolute pain to do this in the fonts required by the journals. And also, non-Hebraists would completely lose out, whereas in transliterated script they can at least recognize the same word when it is named again. Personally, I would much prefer a phonetic transliteration in Roman script. So for instance, Shema for 'hear'. OK, you lose the distinction between the two samech and sin, and between tet and tau. Small price to pay, I think, for readability and ease of typing too. The Hebraists will find out the precise spelling anyway, the non-Hebraists can at least pronounce it properly. But as long as I'm not on an editorial board, I have no say in the matter and will have to follow journal guidelines. Whether I like them or not.
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Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Now, even I can read Shema and understand it. I think it gets complicated with the attempts to transliterate so precisely (and that is where it gets more confusing). And I do understand that journal editors have a lot of power [:)] indeed! Best luck with your journal article. Gregorio
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Gregorio Billikopf said:
George, I do not understand why you are so opposed to interlinear text. I find it really useful for several reasons, even if one may not agree with the definition used by the author of the interlinear. But before I say more, it would be interesting to see why you dislike it.
I do not love thee, Dr Fell,The reason why I cannot tell;But this I know, and know full well,I do not love thee, Dr Fell.Actually, I can tell you why I do not like interlinears.
- Interlinears hinder the learning of a language. When one has an English translation immediately before his eyes, it is absolutely impossible to keep one's self from looking at as one is "reading" the original.
- Interlinears inculcate the a limited understanding of the words of the original by tying one's understanding of a particular word to the gloss used in the translation rather than having the reader learn the full spectrum of the meaning of a word by looking at its entry in a lexicon and following up on the ways it is used in various contexts.
- It engenders a false sense that one understands the language when what one really understands is the translation with which the original text is paired.
- It's downright ugly.
- Give me a little time and I'll think of other reasons to add to the above.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Conquer said:
So for instance, Shema for 'hear'.
Actually, Shema can hear just fine. The problem is that she doesn't listen.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Hi George, I suppose it is all about how we use any resource. For me it is no different than hovering over a word in Hebrew to see its meaning or to consult various translations to see how others have translated a particular passage. After doing so, I go to some of my favorite Lexicons (in my case, I have a strong affinity for Gesenius, but also consult BDB, HALOT and others). But I do see what you mean. If one is just taking the author's word for it (no pun intended), then it is easy to have the wrong idea. Hey, thanks for helping me with my other problem, the day before yesterday. Your suggestion has been a great time saver! (i.e., on the simple pointed Massoretic text). Best, Gregorio
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Mark Barnes said:
Can I suggest an easier method?
- Use the Copy Bible Verses tool to copy Joel to the clipboard.
- Paste the text into Logos' microsite, www.transliterate.com
- Copy the resulting text back to the clipboard
The resulting text is LtoR instead or RtoL, but I presume you can transform this in Word.
Mark, thank you very much for pointing out this site. This is quite useful.
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Conquer said:
This is very helpful. Problem with the interlinear is that you get the words in English order and sometimes jumbled up too. So it'll be hard work to get it exactly right [as you have to for a publication]. Is there any resource that has a transliteration of the Hebrew text in the Hebrew order? That would be really cool.
I noticed that the www.transliterate.com website only outputs SBL format, not the Scientific format, so I tried again with the Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear and finally figured out how to copy and paste with left to right text correctly formatted. Here are the steps:
- Select Tools – Program Settings
- Change the Hebrew Transliteration format to “Scientific”
- Open the Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible
- Click on the “display” button. Select “Inline”. Select “Manuscript (Transliterated)” and then deselect all the other options except these two. You will then see the Hebrew text transliterated according to the “Scientific” format.
- Select the text you want and copy it.
- Paste it into Word. Word has multiple ways it can paste a text, and each way will give you different results:
- Merge formatting – Will display the transliterated text from left to right (this is the option generally desired)
- Keep Source Formatting – Will display the transliterated text from right to left (this is what I see by default, and what others in this thread have mentioned they see)
- Keep Text Only – Will display the Hebrew text with Hebrew characters
It works great! Congrats to Logos for allowing so many ways to paste, and for hiding this fantastic feature so well! [:)] Maybe one logical way to expose this feature would be to somehow add this option into the "Copy Bible Verses" tool.
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I need some help. I saw my friend in class type in a phrase, pressed a button and it came out Hebrew, do we have to have a special keyboard in order to type in Hebrew. I have the Bronze Base Package. He then highlighted a Hebrew phrase pressed that button on Logos it came out English.
Sincerely,
Gerard L. Miller
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G. L. Miller said:
I need some help. I saw my friend in class type in a phrase, pressed a button and it came out Hebrew, do we have to have a special keyboard in order to type in Hebrew. I have the Bronze Base Package. He then highlighted a Hebrew phrase pressed that button on Logos it came out English.
Sincerely,
Gerard L. Miller
I generally change keyboards and type directly in Hebrew, but it is possible to type "h:xxxx" and have it converted to Hebrew.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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how do I change my keyboard. Thank you in advance
Sincerely,
G.L.Miller
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G. L. Miller said:
how do I change my keyboard. Thank you in advance
Sincerely,
G.L.Miller
A computer or a MAC?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Computer Laptop, Qosmio made by Toshiba. Windows 7. Top of the line computer, has everything. Even a Blu-Ray dvd,backlit keyboard, subwoofer
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G. L. Miller said:
how do I change my keyboard
This video and instructions should help: http://www.logos.com/support/logos5/windows/keyboards
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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