Not Sure Uprade is Worth the Time or Money

Page 3 of 3 (53 items) < Previous 1 2 3
This post has 52 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 22
R.M. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 1:18 PM

Thanks for the reply Bob. I have thousands of dollars and years invested in the system - that's why I don't waste my time making idle threats about switching to a better system (there isn't one) - of course I will be patient for a few days, maybe by then my books will be all indexed and I can use them, lol  :)

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 4:35 PM

Thanks for the reply Bob.

But I for one would rather wait and get a complete product with at least the features I am used to being there.  I frankly have never heard of releasing a product where paid-for features are not included, and new features are. It creates a point of confusion now having to run two versions of the same product, and all the worries about which resource work for which, which version to I go for, for which feature, etc.  I can't see Microsoft releasing a verison of Word like this, and like it or not it's what we are used to.

But at least for me, I'd rather do without the features I don't yet know so I can keep the features I do use. Just like new users won't miss things they never knew, I won't miss features I don't yet know either. I know full well that new functionality may take a release or two to get right, but to lose features I rely on, that's a step back.

I know software development and I know that Logos betas have gone quite a bit longer than originally anticipated, which again is fine with new features and the fact that betas were open to many.  But it makes me wonder if Q2, 2010 could in fact become Q4, 2010. It wouldn't be unprecedented.

I hope given this confusion that the upgrade pricing will stay until a time at which what we have can be replaced fully by the new version. If by the time version 4 has the version 3 features I care about, the upgrade pricing has gone up to a higher level, that might price me out forever. I can't see buying a product and using it half time or less, given the cost of upgrade. But that's your call of course.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 4:39 PM

What if Word was released in a new version missing features from the prior version that users worked with? Would the industry accept "run 2 versions for 6-8 months" as a reasonable approach? I think not - Microsoft, Oracle, Intuit,  or any other major vendor would be panned, and panned hard.

And it's not that we "miss it" - We use it. Big difference.

I am sure the priorities were good choices - the release came out too early, I don't argue with the priorities.

Posts 44
William Norman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 4:45 PM

I'm quite disappointed.  My past experience with logos convinced me it would be a great program.  We've lost all control of the program. If the servers are down we lose functionality in the program.  So far everyone is trying to convice themselves that we have a prince. It looks more like a toad to me. I feel that I've wasted my money.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 5:07 PM

williamnorman:
If the servers are down we lose functionality in the program.

How so? L4 can run complete off-line indefinitely until the servers are backup. Very few features require a connect and I don't think these are "have or die" features. The only one that comes to mind is reading lists.I love the feature...but I think I could live without it for a bit.

williamnorman:
So far everyone is trying to convice themselves that we have a prince.

Not at all. I have been using L4 for 2 months. I dread when I have to open L3 (yes, some of those features are a must for me), I love to open L4. I have felt this way since at least beta 3 (betas come out once a week). Back then there were even more serious hick-ups then you are seeing now. You are free to feel like you are kissing a toad. But my opinion of the product is not a self-delusion and has been proven with time.

Posts 1692
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 6:41 PM

Don Awalt:
What if Word was released in a new version missing features from the prior version that users worked with? Would the industry accept "run 2 versions for 6-8 months" as a reasonable approach?

You can make the case that if we do anything different in the existing app, we're taking something away. (Your investment in learning the old way, for example.) That's what people said when Microsoft changed the UI to Word by introducing the ribbon UI.

I had a car that remembered two seat positions for both the driver and passenger. I liked the car so much I bought a newer model. For some inexplicable reason, the new model (which adds a GPS! cool!) only has the two-person seat memory on the driver's side.

Did they take it away? No, they introduced a new, upgraded model. I chose to use it.

We haven't taken away Logos 3. It's still there. Everything you paid for is still there.

You could make the case that you bought an eternal stream of updates. And, in fact, we pretty much act that way, though it's not really what we ever sold you: we said you'd get free updates to the technology to ensure it wouldn't stop working. Our total, ground-up rewrite of Logos 4, that runs apart from Logos 3, which is getting maintenance "as we speak", doesn't break that promise. As long as Logos 3 runs, we're keeping that promise.

That we let you "transfer" the promise to Logos 4 is a benefit. And, of course, it's our hope. But I think we should be on the hook to keep everything-exactly-as-it-was. (Though we're keeping it as familiar as possible.) 

Because if we do, we'll eventually die. Microsoft Word is cool, and it's great that it still works and reads old documents. But its (necessary) slavish attention to support everything it did in the past holds it back. It makes you and i happy, but it also means it's too old fashioned, too slow, too big, and too expensive for my 15 year old son. He wants everything in the cloud, uses Google Docs (which is inconceivable to me), and accesses school papers from my home desktop machine, his laptop, and the computer at school, interchangeably.

Word may have enough of us old guys to lumber on into the future for years; but it's over as the cutting edge. You need reinvention to stay fresh, and that's what we're doing -- WITHOUT breaking our promise about you not having to repurchase your content.

Hope this helps explain the thinking...

(One last thing -- how can it be out too early? If I delayed it six months to get all those features in, you'd have it in six months. If you just keep using 3.0 and ignore all the Logos 4 noise, then upgrade in six months with all those features, how is it any different?)

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 6:57 PM

Thanks Bob for the reply.

Two quick points - I think you are looking at it as a change in how something works, like the seat position example. I am looking at it as functionality removed - like if Word removed spell checking.  You are right things have to move forward, but we are talking about things that I used to be able to do with the product that I can no longer do.

Re: "(One last thing -- how can it be out too early? If I delayed it six months to get all those features in, you'd have it in six months. If you just keep using 3.0 and ignore all the Logos 4 noise, then upgrade in six months with all those features, how is it any different?)" - I guess that is what I was thinking too. It would be nice to get the upgrade when it came out, I think Logos would want me to do that too.  But the big question there is, how long do the upgrade prices stay the same?

Posts 44
William Norman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:03 PM

I know I can be opinionated. But it appears to me that this is just a transition to being web based software. When that happens then we will see how much we are affected by a bad connection or by a faulty server.

Time proven?  How much time?

Posts 10645
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:21 PM

Don Awalt:

What if Word was released in a new version missing features from the prior version that users worked with? Would the industry accept "run 2 versions for 6-8 months" as a reasonable approach? I think not - Microsoft, Oracle, Intuit,  or any other major vendor would be panned, and panned hard.

And it's not that we "miss it" - We use it. Big difference.

I am sure the priorities were good choices - the release came out too early, I don't argue with the priorities.

In that case, MS would call it Office 2008 for Mac!

Jack

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:26 PM

williamnorman:
I know I can be opinionated. But it appears to me that this is just a transition to being web based software.

I doubt it. I think there will always be a place for Locally based software. For now it is not a movement to, but an addition to. Bob has already commented on there being web-based access to our library down the road. but I don't think it will ever replace having non-web dependent software.

Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:38 PM

JackCaviness:
In that case, MS would call it Office 2008 for Mac!
Good point Jack.  Worse yet, try Quicken for Mac.. one of the worst things ever.  Logos is not the first company to struggle to put the same product on both Mac and Windows.  They certainly made some bad decisions over the past few years, but IMHO, they are on the right track now to get Mac in parity with Windows.  Folks who want to be cranky, will just be cranky though :-)

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:45 PM

R.M.:
They refuse to issue a script to unlock that, saying that only 4.0 new purchases can be used with 4.0.

This is probably not a matter of "refusing to issue a script" as it is that the new books would be in the Logos 4 book format. Many many books had to be updated to the new format. New books are being released in the new format. This does raise questions about how users can truly keep using L3 if they need features in it but will then be unable to use some of their resources, so perhaps Logos will release an update to L3 so it can read L4 books? We will see.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 7:49 PM

Chris Roberts:

R.M.:
They refuse to issue a script to unlock that, saying that only 4.0 new purchases can be used with 4.0.

This is probably not a matter of "refusing to issue a script" as it is that the new books would be in the Logos 4 book format. Many many books had to be updated to the new format. New books are being released in the new format. This does raise questions about how users can truly keep using L3 if they need features in it but will then be unable to use some of their resources, so perhaps Logos will release an update to L3 so it can read L4 books? We will see.

L3 and L4 resources are stored in different locations. In other words your L3 resource folder is not being updated to the logos4 format. Thus you may or may not get typo corrections (not sure how that one will work) but you will be able to continue using the old file.

Page 3 of 3 (53 items) < Previous 1 2 3 | RSS