Not Sure Uprade is Worth the Time or Money

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27118#Comment_27118

I am actually a little surprised at the list of features that are not included. Some of these are ones people really rely on, I would think that Logos would want people to upgrade and not look back once the release comes out. It seems at a minimum that the way to go will be to run both versions in parallel; how efficient is that? To me prayer lists, full view interlinears, PBB, sentence diagramming, custom lectionaries, and others are regular features. How could Logos expect people to use version 4 for as much as 6-8 months without them?

IMHO this product was released too early. You just don't take away core functionality from an existing product no matter how good the new stuff is....my two cents...

Kevin A. Purcell

As one of the beta testers who made this argument, I am not surprised that you are saying this.

You can run 4 most of the time but only open 3 when you want. But if that is not acceptable and those features are too important then of course you should wait to upgrade.

Remember that for new customers, they will not miss when they never knew was there. And the holiday season is a big time for a company to get orders for new customers. So I can understand them wanting to get it out in November. Sadly us sentence diagramming users will have to run both or wait on 4.

TCBlack

Gregg,

I appreciate your candor - many (all?) of us in the beta group hated the interface on day one. But after a few days our tone started changing. After two months I like it!

using the new interface is frustrating and it seems much less flexible with respect to customization than v3.

One of the design goals of Logos this time around was to craft good defaults into the program. Customization is somewhat limited at this time, but there are hints and indications that once the release hubub has died down Logos will begin implementing community requested changes. I believe they will - they have always listened in the past.

when creating collections the screen automatically scrolls back to the top of the resource list when a resource is dragged to the exclude window necessitating a repetitive scroll - drag - scroll routine

It sounds like you're clicking your library button and then trying to organize. Try one of these options to get rid of that problem.

Click and drag that library button into a docked window.
Type Open Library in the command bar

Both of those will do the same thing. From there you can float, dock, undock move your library around till you like where it is.

Also, Logos 4 no longer allows one to print portions or pages of resources directly from the program.

That is coming later. I believe there's a reference to it on the missing features page (look in my sig for the link).

I'd encourage folks to wait and see on this one; it may well get better as Logos tweaks and upgrades but right now v3 is a more useable tool.

You're mileage may vary Gregg. I guess it all depends on HOW you use the tool.

Right now I can say that I haven't opened version three more than a handful of times in the last two months, and since reinstalling my OS on monday I still haven't put L3 on my computer. L4 is good enough for me.

True I miss sermon file adding, and a few other small features (print being one) but my comfort with the program and my willingness to wait works for me - it doesn't have to work for you.

The good news is that L3 will continue to work along side L4 without a single problem. That will give you plenty of time to get used to the new program.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27125#Comment_27125

You can run 4 most of the time but only open 3 when you want. But if that is not acceptable and those features are too important then of course you should wait to upgrade.

Actually you can run both at the same time. If you have two monitors, you can have the best of both worlds simultaneously. If you don't have two monitors, make friends with ALT-TAB.

While it would be great to have everything in one package, it's really cool that we can upgrade, keep the old package too, and be able to run them simultaneously. That's a great help, and almost unheard of strategy for any software company.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27125#Comment_27125

I'm going to be upgrading to 4 but I already know I will have to run Logos 3 until PBB functionality comes out. I rely on a few of my PBBs every single day so it will be a while before 4 is fully functional for me. I agree that an incomplete product was released but you have to remember that this is a key time for a company like Logos to release software. It's before Christmas, before the Spring semester, before ETS, etc

Kevin I agree with you about new customers not missing what they don't know about, but with PBBs this is not exactly the case. PBBs are not a small feature that can be forgotten, they make up almost half of my library!

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27168#Comment_27168

I went ahead and bought the upgrade, if for nothing else, to take advantage of the price. But the program does feel very incomplete to me.

I will have to wait six months, when it gets all done, to see is it is something I will find advantageous. In the mean time 3 will be my main Logos software.

iamk

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27196#Comment_27196

I guess I will have to revert to 3 as well. sigh...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27168#Comment_27168

I can understand your sentiment and appreciate the tone in which you have expressed your opinion (and that goes for everyone in this thread.) After 2-3 months of Beta testing there are now three things that still cause me to turn to L3, verse lists, prayer lists, and smart tags. The way I use prayer lists leaves me little doubt that I have to find another means. Excel reads L3's xml file. I doubt I'll be able to do this with L4 when it is implemented. smart tags are too handy, especially since I can automate them with VBA. Can't wait to see L4's verse lists.

That being said, I dread when I have to open L3. It takes forever, I have to process too many icons and menu options mentally to think of where I am going, and it looks drab. I love to customize to a fault. I spend all my time customizing when the options are there. I've grown to like the fact that Logos makes some of these decisions for me. I do wish for a little more control over library management, or just better assistance with the prioritized list. I'm glad they released when they did even though further development is needed. Our feedback about our annoyances will help them get things right as they develop so that when it comes out it will be done right, I hope :-)

Don

I agree completely. This program reminds me of the phone tree you get when you call a company. "If your product blew up, press 1 now. If your product is just on fire, press 2. To repeat this menu, hang up and call back." The designers of the phone menus are trying to guess what you want, and they almost always guess wrong. I think that's what's going on here. We've lost customization because the designer is guessing what we want and is guessing wrong. I wish they had guessed that I wanted to import all my notes, collections, etc. I don't see any alternative to keeping Logos 3 for a while, perhaps a long while.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27212#Comment_27212

IMHO, they got it right. L3 was cumbersome and most features were useless. After spending the past 2 months beta testing v4, I think they got it right.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27231#Comment_27231

I would agree. I paid for the upgrade but now deeply regret it. The clincher for me is that Logos refuses to issue update scripts for 3.0 with the books you purchase under 4.0.

So you can use 3.0 along with 4.0 - but only for your library before the upgrade.

That is effectively saying that they refuse to support 3.0 with books your rightfully purchase. This is extremely poor customer service.

The fact that you can't print from the resources you bought is just icing on the cake. This upgrade is really a downgrade in many ways. Disappointing.

Save yourself some money and don't buy this.

Perry Payne

IMHO, they got it right. L3 was cumbersome and most features were useless. After spending the past 2 months beta testing v4, I think they got it right.

Joe I agree completely...I think they got it right. I was not a beta tester, but I actually am finding the new interface much more user-friendly. You just can't jump into v4 saying that you want everything to be like v3. Not going to happen. This was a complete rewrite of their software...for our benefit. There is a tremendous amount of power in the new version, and the more I work with it, the more I am impressed.

V3 was cumberson and I am thrilled to have v4. Way to go Logos!!!!

Just my opinion...

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27248#Comment_27248

Your books are your books. If you can find the resource file on CD or the ftp site, you can use it now in 3.0. Logos has also promised to make a script to import most new books (some may be too tied to L4's features) into 3.0, but their focus has been on the release. I will admit that at the start of the Beta I was underwelmed. About a month into the Beta, I saw L4 starting to take shape and do many things well. At the end I thougth that it still needed some more time, but it was actually working much better now that the L4 optimized resources were there.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27231#Comment_27231

IMHO, they got it right. L3 was cumbersome and most features were useless. After spending the past 2 months beta testing v4, I think they got it right.

agreed

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27251#Comment_27251

IMHO, they got it right. L3 was cumbersome and most features were useless. After spending the past 2 months beta testing v4, I think they got it right.

Joe I agree completely...I think they got it right. I was not a beta tester, but I actually am finding the new interface much more user-friendly. You just can't jump into v4 saying that you want everything to be like v3. Not going to happen. This was a complete rewrite of their software...for our benefit. There is a tremendous amount of power in the new version, and the more I work with it, the more I am impressed.

V3 was cumberson and I am thrilled to have v4. Way to go Logos!!!!

Just my opinion...

Joe and Perry, I agree with you totally. It is also my experience after using Logos 4 these few months. Now, when I come back to v3, I try to do things quite normal for Logos 4, like see the info about the book, and I am amazed how I did it before. It is just one simple example. Library features, search power. I hated searches in v3. I tried to avoid them, using Passage Guide and so on.

It reminds me switching from my PDA phone to iPhone. First, I tought, where are all those tweaking options. Now I am really happy with the iPhone. What is there, I use and I need. What is not there, I would hardly use anyways. Logos 4 is very smart and well thought program.

Just to get new pbb functionality to it and it is perfect. [:)]

Alex Scott

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27248#Comment_27248

So you can use 3.0 along with 4.0 - but only for your library before the upgrade.

That's not really true. I must admit I have it a bit easier because I keep almost all the locked resources on my computer, so when I synch my licences on LBS3 all the products under LBS4 get unlocked (granted there may be a few features in LBS4 that can't be used in LBS3 but so far I'm not aware of any resources that don't work on LBS3). Right now you're faced with a manual task but it can be done. Probably the simplest way for most people in to look up the titles you're missing on the products pages and download the resources from there.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27327#Comment_27327

Probably the simplest way for most people in to look up the titles you're missing on the products pages and download the resources from there

I just did that and it was fun. I found some really amaizing resources I have in my Platinum, like AKOT (Analytical Key to the OT) and many other. Some really expensive stuff. Only now I really know what I got [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27327#Comment_27327

Actually according to Logos Customer service - any new books you purchase in 4.0 cannot be used in 3.0. I didn't make that up

They refuse to issue a script to unlock that, saying that only 4.0 new purchases can be used with 4.0.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27333#Comment_27333

Actually according to Logos Customer service - any new books you purchase in 4.0 cannot be used in 3.0. I didn't make that up

They refuse to issue a script to unlock that, saying that only 4.0 new purchases can be used with 4.0.

Was this through a phone call or is it written down somewhere?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27336#Comment_27336

Phone call with Sarah....

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27333#Comment_27333

Actually according to Logos Customer service - any new books you purchase in 4.0 cannot be used in 3.0. I didn't make that up

They refuse to issue a script to unlock that, saying that only 4.0 new purchases can be used with 4.0.

Honestly they may not be right. It was my understanding that syncing your licenses in L3 will pickup whatever is unlocked in L4.

I should go look for the post but I'm too lazy, anyone from the beta group remember seeing Bob or Bradley say that?

Chris Elford

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27212#Comment_27212

I think Bob made several very strong arguements for releasing the program at this point even though some features are not available yet.

One point that struck me was reminding everyone that you can wait for everything to be done or you can get it now and wait for everything to be done. It won't all get done until it is done, but in the meantime you can be using the features that are upgrades and at the same time still use L3 for those that aren't. You can wait until all the features you want are ready or you can get it now and wait. Either way you'll wait.

He also pointed out that certain features which we consider key in other products/software today, was not in the original versions. But, because we never had the product/software before we don't miss it. Because we've had L3 we miss it.

He has committed to develop most of the features, although some won't go forward for tecnical reasons or because they believe the L4 features are better. We'll get those features as they are developed for no additional cost.

Bob also argued that they made the changes after much tho't. They are not arbitrary. The choices for which features to leave until later, were based, at least in part, on the number of people who use those features. They're catering to the majority -- kind of a democratic idea. There are some features that some people rely on, but only a few people. So, when you have limited resources and time, where do you put your effort?

Chris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27344#Comment_27344

I hope thats not right as well, lol..

But I know when I now open 3.0 and update or use any of the other update scripts, it doesn't show my new books I purchased in my upgrade to be downloaded...

Maybe doing it manually would work...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27344#Comment_27344

I wish I could find the exact post but if memory serves me, Bradley shared that they will be putting out an update for L3 via Libronix Updater which will include new resources. But, it is not high priority right now;maybe in a week or so. This I have read more than once. Originally, I raised the question when I began to see new resources in (LE) last weekend. If I can find the post, I'll add it.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27333#Comment_27333

R.M

Bradley told us last week during the Beta testing that all the new base package books that don't need 4.0 to function will be made available for L3, he said to give them a week or so to get them converted. I think it's been all hands on deck this week for the L4 launch and we'll probably see them next week.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27350#Comment_27350

R.M. That's right, with L3 you'll have to download the files from the Ftp server. L4 downloads it's files automatically, but L3 won't. If L4 downloads an lbxlls file you can use it in L3, but if downloads a logos4 file you'll have to find the L3 equivalent. (provided that your L4 resources are now in your L3 search path.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27336#Comment_27336

Bradley Grainger told us Beta testers on Saturday October 31st that: "The resources in "Gold (LE)" that can be made to work with LDLS3 are going to be built in LBXLLS format, uploaded to the FTP site, and made available through the standard resource update script. However, this is lower priority than getting the books ready for Logos 4, so it may be a week or more until this happens."

Please note the OR MORE. They are swamped now, and I hope they remain so for a while. But they will add this in to 3.0.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27352#Comment_27352

I tried to do it manually but the new resources are not .lbxlls. Bradley instructed me NOT to do it because I could hurt the system. FYI

It will get done; there is no doubt. Patience. [A]

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27134#Comment_27134

You win points for being postive <g>

I am a curmudgeon when it comes to software and computers which is why I write reviews of such.

I do not think it really cool that I can run both. I'd love to just delete the old ASAP. I have no interest in running two versions. But I am using 4 so I can be of help to my readers and to try to get over my habits knowing that I will eventually get as used to this as I was to the old. But until they get the diagramming tool, which I use every time I work on a text, I will have it there. and it keeps calling me back to the comforts of home!

But there is light at the end of the tunnel and I cannot believe it is already November since it was just 1999 three days ago, so it will go fast and one day the little blue icon in my systray will tell me that the diagrams are coming!!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27357#Comment_27357

RM,

You get to do the "happy dance" now. Good news, yes? [:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27362#Comment_27362

joan, lol - yes - its good news that its on their radar....sounds like customer service needs to be aware of these plans instead of panicking peeps like me!!!

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27354#Comment_27354

R.M

Bradley told us last week during the Beta testing that all the new base package books that don't need 4.0 to function will be made available for L3, he said to give them a week or so to get them converted. I think it's been all hands on deck this week for the L4 launch and we'll probably see them next week.

Yes I saw the post also. It is not policy to keep the resources from your v3 range but a priority thing. The information of Customer Service might mean that really, strictly speaking, Logos 4 resources (with .logos 4 ending) will never work in v3. That's how I understand it.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27118#Comment_27118

To me prayer lists, full view interlinears, PBB, sentence diagramming, custom lectionaries, and others are regular features.

All of these are planned for restoration; I've just got to disagree that they're "regular features", though. They may be to you -- and I'm glad for that! I helped design them, and like to see them used! But our statistics module tells us that most of those are used by 10% or less of users, and a few by less than 1%.

The choice of what did/didn't make the cut for the first release was data driven, not a subjective call. I'm sorry that it frustrates our best and strongest users, like you, but if we'd held the release till they were done it wouldn't have made things any faster. You'd still get them at the same time, we'd just be deferring access to the features 90% of users use until then. That's why we went ahead with a release now.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27248#Comment_27248

The clincher for me is that Logos refuses to issue update scripts for 3.0 with the books you purchase under 4.0.

Whoa! "refuses" is a harsh word! And I think I'm the only person who gets to "refuse" on Logos behalf.

As I've posted previously, we actually PLAN to release an update script to put every book that will work with 3.x into your 3.x installation. We went out of our way to design and code for this scenario. I'm sorry you got the wrong answer from customer service -- I've already emailed the department supervisor to make sure they get the message right. (They're _really_ busy, and working very hard, and sometimes we haven't communicated the answer to every question to every person, despites attempts to improve communication.)

We don't want any one disappointed; if you're not happy, we want to give you a refund. But I hope you'll give us a few days (it's only Wednesday!) to work through some of these things, get the scripts online, etc.

Thanks!

-- Bob

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27378#Comment_27378

(They're _really_ busy, and working very hard, and sometimes we haven't communicated the answer to every question to every person, despites attempts to improve communication.)

We don't want any one disappointed; if you're not happy, we want to give you a refund. But I hope you'll give us a few days (it's only Wednesday!) to work through some of these things, get the scripts online, etc.

Thanks!

-- Bob

The keys to successfullly navigate the week for everyone, I think, is communication as you said it, Bob. Your communications go a very long way in "soothing our furrowed brows". Thanks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27391#Comment_27391

I said "keys" and I meant to add the other key, is patience. We already have heard it numerous times and we just need to be it.

Daniel Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27378#Comment_27378

The clincher for me is that Logos refuses to issue update scripts for 3.0 with the books you purchase under 4.0.

Whoa! "refuses" is a harsh word! And I think I'm the only person who gets to "refuse" on Logos behalf.

As I've posted previously, we actually PLAN to release an update script to put every book that will work with 3.x into your 3.x installation. We went out of our way to design and code for this scenario. I'm sorry you got the wrong answer from customer service -- I've already emailed the department supervisor to make sure they get the message right. (They're _really_ busy, and working very hard, and sometimes we haven't communicated the answer to every question to every person, despites attempts to improve communication.)

We don't want any one disappointed; if you're not happy, we want to give you a refund. But I hope you'll give us a few days (it's only Wednesday!) to work through some of these things, get the scripts online, etc.

Thanks!

-- Bob

Bob,

I want to thank you and all the Logos staff for your Christian attitude and courteousness during a very busy time. You've gotten a lot of flak over various things, and yet you've responded kindly and in detail, both on the forums and on the phone. I know the program is not perfect, but you all have done a ton of work and are working to resolve any issues.

When I called to upgrade, I got through quickly (possibly because I waited to call until Monday evening, though I did get a sales question answered earlier in the day without any trouble), my questions were answered thoroughly, and now 4.0 is running quickly and smoothly on both my computers. Thank you for a great release, and I look forward to watching the training videos and learning more about the new or improved features.

For me, it was well worth the time and the money to upgrade. I haven't been using Logos as long as many here, as I just got a base package in June (though I had some resources from back in the 2.1 days), so I'm not as tied in to certain of the 3.0 features that haven't migrated yet. I'm just thankful for the thousands of resources that are now accessible nearly instantaneously. God has certainly blessed us as Christians today to have so much - hopefully we will be as wise stewards of it as people in the old days were with a single copy of the Bible.

- Dan

Kenneth Morris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27375#Comment_27375

To me prayer lists, full view interlinears, PBB, sentence diagramming, custom lectionaries, and others are regular features.

All of these are planned for restoration; I've just got to disagree that they're "regular features", though. They may be to you -- and I'm glad for that! I helped design them, and like to see them used! But our statistics module tells us that most of those are used by 10% or less of users, and a few by less than 1%.

Bob,

Even though you might not see them as "regular features", we did pay for some of them at one point. I did purchase the sentence diagrammer for a reason. I know it can be used in V.3, but as with any resource that has been purchased, the functionality should be ported to the upgrade. I know you are working on these "features, but please consider that some of these features were purchased. They were not just extras thrown in with the program that are expendable. I know you are fending off the onslought of "we never did it that way" from the initial shock of new users. I know you are probably very tired. But please don't diminish our concern over the investment we made.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27400#Comment_27400

I think we Beta Testers were harder on Logos the first week than I have seen here. Bob reassured us that while many things were going to be different, only two things were going away - Remote Library Search (Easier to do via the web) and Graphical Queries (New search syntax was to be easy enough that this isn't needed). Everything else is in the Logos 4 plan.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27378#Comment_27378

Thanks for the reply Bob. I have thousands of dollars and years invested in the system - that's why I don't waste my time making idle threats about switching to a better system (there isn't one) - of course I will be patient for a few days, maybe by then my books will be all indexed and I can use them, lol

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27400#Comment_27400

Thanks for the reply Bob.

But I for one would rather wait and get a complete product with at least the features I am used to being there. I frankly have never heard of releasing a product where paid-for features are not included, and new features are. It creates a point of confusion now having to run two versions of the same product, and all the worries about which resource work for which, which version to I go for, for which feature, etc. I can't see Microsoft releasing a verison of Word like this, and like it or not it's what we are used to.

But at least for me, I'd rather do without the features I don't yet know so I can keep the features I do use. Just like new users won't miss things they never knew, I won't miss features I don't yet know either. I know full well that new functionality may take a release or two to get right, but to lose features I rely on, that's a step back.

I know software development and I know that Logos betas have gone quite a bit longer than originally anticipated, which again is fine with new features and the fact that betas were open to many. But it makes me wonder if Q2, 2010 could in fact become Q4, 2010. It wouldn't be unprecedented.

I hope given this confusion that the upgrade pricing will stay until a time at which what we have can be replaced fully by the new version. If by the time version 4 has the version 3 features I care about, the upgrade pricing has gone up to a higher level, that might price me out forever. I can't see buying a product and using it half time or less, given the cost of upgrade. But that's your call of course.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27349#Comment_27349

What if Word was released in a new version missing features from the prior version that users worked with? Would the industry accept "run 2 versions for 6-8 months" as a reasonable approach? I think not - Microsoft, Oracle, Intuit, or any other major vendor would be panned, and panned hard.

And it's not that we "miss it" - We use it. Big difference.

I am sure the priorities were good choices - the release came out too early, I don't argue with the priorities.

William Norman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27212#Comment_27212

I'm quite disappointed. My past experience with logos convinced me it would be a great program. We've lost all control of the program. If the servers are down we lose functionality in the program. So far everyone is trying to convice themselves that we have a prince. It looks more like a toad to me. I feel that I've wasted my money.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27625#Comment_27625

If the servers are down we lose functionality in the program.

How so? L4 can run complete off-line indefinitely until the servers are backup. Very few features require a connect and I don't think these are "have or die" features. The only one that comes to mind is reading lists.I love the feature...but I think I could live without it for a bit.

So far everyone is trying to convice themselves that we have a prince.

Not at all. I have been using L4 for 2 months. I dread when I have to open L3 (yes, some of those features are a must for me), I love to open L4. I have felt this way since at least beta 3 (betas come out once a week). Back then there were even more serious hick-ups then you are seeing now. You are free to feel like you are kissing a toad. But my opinion of the product is not a self-delusion and has been proven with time.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27620#Comment_27620

What if Word was released in a new version missing features from the prior version that users worked with? Would the industry accept "run 2 versions for 6-8 months" as a reasonable approach?

You can make the case that if we do anything different in the existing app, we're taking something away. (Your investment in learning the old way, for example.) That's what people said when Microsoft changed the UI to Word by introducing the ribbon UI.

I had a car that remembered two seat positions for both the driver and passenger. I liked the car so much I bought a newer model. For some inexplicable reason, the new model (which adds a GPS! cool!) only has the two-person seat memory on the driver's side.

Did they take it away? No, they introduced a new, upgraded model. I chose to use it.

We haven't taken away Logos 3. It's still there. Everything you paid for is still there.

You could make the case that you bought an eternal stream of updates. And, in fact, we pretty much act that way, though it's not really what we ever sold you: we said you'd get free updates to the technology to ensure it wouldn't stop working. Our total, ground-up rewrite of Logos 4, that runs apart from Logos 3, which is getting maintenance "as we speak", doesn't break that promise. As long as Logos 3 runs, we're keeping that promise.

That we let you "transfer" the promise to Logos 4 is a benefit. And, of course, it's our hope. But I think we should be on the hook to keep everything-exactly-as-it-was. (Though we're keeping it as familiar as possible.)

Because if we do, we'll eventually die. Microsoft Word is cool, and it's great that it still works and reads old documents. But its (necessary) slavish attention to support everything it did in the past holds it back. It makes you and i happy, but it also means it's too old fashioned, too slow, too big, and too expensive for my 15 year old son. He wants everything in the cloud, uses Google Docs (which is inconceivable to me), and accesses school papers from my home desktop machine, his laptop, and the computer at school, interchangeably.

Word may have enough of us old guys to lumber on into the future for years; but it's over as the cutting edge. You need reinvention to stay fresh, and that's what we're doing -- WITHOUT breaking our promise about you not having to repurchase your content.

Hope this helps explain the thinking...

(One last thing -- how can it be out too early? If I delayed it six months to get all those features in, you'd have it in six months. If you just keep using 3.0 and ignore all the Logos 4 noise, then upgrade in six months with all those features, how is it any different?)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27723#Comment_27723

Thanks Bob for the reply.

Two quick points - I think you are looking at it as a change in how something works, like the seat position example. I am looking at it as functionality removed - like if Word removed spell checking. You are right things have to move forward, but we are talking about things that I used to be able to do with the product that I can no longer do.

Re: "(One last thing -- how can it be out too early? If I delayed it six
months to get all those features in, you'd have it in six months. If
you just keep using 3.0 and ignore all the Logos 4 noise, then upgrade
in six months with all those features, how is it any different?)" - I guess that is what I was thinking too. It would be nice to get the upgrade when it came out, I think Logos would want me to do that too. But the big question there is, how long do the upgrade prices stay the same?

William Norman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27642#Comment_27642

I know I can be opinionated. But it appears to me that this is just a transition to being web based software. When that happens then we will see how much we are affected by a bad connection or by a faulty server.

Time proven? How much time?

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/27620#Comment_27620

What if Word was released in a new version missing features from the prior version that users worked with? Would the industry accept "run 2 versions for 6-8 months" as a reasonable approach? I think not - Microsoft, Oracle, Intuit, or any other major vendor would be panned, and panned hard.

And it's not that we "miss it" - We use it. Big difference.

I am sure the priorities were good choices - the release came out too early, I don't argue with the priorities.

In that case, MS would call it Office 2008 for Mac!

Jack