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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 8:49 PM

Ariyl:
There are MANY scenarios, but apparently no one wants to see or think of them

I guess each of us has a personal responsibility to deal with the situation God has put us in.  I have to provide lots of food to feed my large family. You may have to provide two insurance policies to cover your personal property. 

I would not put a $10,000 diamond necklace on my 12 year old, nor a loaded shotgun in my 10 year old's hands. Not to deny them something but BECAUSE I do love them.  Maybe a cheaper license of Logos would suffice. Do your minor children really need The Ugaritic Library or Baker Exegetical Commentary or HALOT/BDAG? Will your child's first car be a $40,000 SUV?

Dr. Art Robinson (Robinson's Self-Teaching Curriculum) recommends children not use computers until they are about 16 years of age. His kids have been offered full scholarships at Yale, Harvard & others following their father's advice.

Logos does not exist to meet every scenario.

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Ariyl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 8:51 PM

MJ. Smith:

Ariyl:
But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.

This is commendable. However, it also carries the responsibility to not purchase a product for which you are unwilling to accept the conditions of that purchase.  It becomes the equivalent of "stealing" just as using pirated copies of DVD, CD, books, etc. is stealing. True, you could correctly claim that there is no indication that the concept of intellectual property at the time the 10 Commandments were delivered. But then again, there is little evidence of personal property (in contrast to family property) at that time.

To accept a product and not agree to accept the conditions for that purchase becomes the equvalent of stealing? What kind of boat did that fall off? That makes no sense.Sir, Roman law does not even hold one accountable for anything ILLEGALLY written in a contract. Anything that is illegal in it would be dismissed and what is binding will stand. EXAMPLE (try to think of other examples): How would you like a man to make a contract to take your children for X amount of years for a price, because you ended up a desperate fool? Do you suppose he can go to court and demand them or certain behavior from them? I don't know what book y'all read from, but it sure doesn't have anything to do with believing in all Scriptural Truth.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 8:56 PM

Ariyl:
Why would you try to convince me to resort to a limited freeware to educate my children, while I have Logos 4? How wicked a thought! Show yourself. I'm amused now

Would you shoplift prime rib from the grocery store so your children don't have to eat ramen noodles? I cannot believe I am hearing someone advocate rebellion to government authority & blatant disregard of the 10 commandments.

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J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 8:58 PM

Ariyl... I think a good fresh dose of Proverbs is in order....

*Kicking-Self Indifferent

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Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 9:03 PM

So when Jesus says "   Luke 20:24–25 (ESV)  24 “Show me a denarius. Whose likeness and inscription does it have?” They said, “Caesar’s.” 25 He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”  He was not talking about obeying the ROMAN law?  He was.

Or when the Word says, Proverbs 18:1 (GDNT) 1 "People who do not get along with others are interested only in themselves; they will disagree with what everyone else knows is right."  You don't think this is speaking directly about you?   It is.

Remember you were the one who asked about using multiple copies of Logos in the first place.   You got a bunch of counsel, which you have decided to argue with by twisting scripture so you can justify stealing from Logos.   You answer to God for your choices.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 9:09 PM

Ariyl:
To accept a product and not agree to accept the conditions for that purchase becomes the equvalent of stealing? What kind of boat did that fall off? That makes no sense

When you install Logos you gave your word to follow the EULA. If you don't you have lied. (it's in your Bible)

Ariyl:
Sir, Roman law does not even hold one accountable for anything ILLEGALLY written in a contract. Anything that is illegal in it would be dismissed and what is binding will stand

 The Logos EULA is legal. What's more, if you don't like it you have a 30 day money back guarantee. (You only get money back if you paid for it.)

Ariyl:
How would you like a man to make a contract to take your children for X amount of years for a price, because you ended up a desperate fool? Do you suppose he can go to court and demand them or certain behavior from them?

This is precisely what the prophet dealt with in the OT. He had the widow sell the oil & PAY off the debt. That is acknowledgement the debt was valid.

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Ariyl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 9:16 PM

It is amazing how much energy is put into disuading another for doing the utmost for their children...very sad. Oppressive generation.

It goes without saying, and idiotic for somebody to think that any software exists to meet every scenario. So that sounds like a statement tailored for a dumb person to accept as a "justifiable" reason to deny another something. It is a serious flaw that virtually all software is free of. In fact, I know not ONE.

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Ariyl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 9:28 PM

I'm sorry, I gave you too much credit. I must be speaking to a minor child with these infantile responses. Do you have your parents permission? I say this, because your analogy is pathetically immature. I hope you are a child, because your perverted analogy assumes I never paid for what I have and would rather steal what I could not buy. That makes you like an Accuser. Please refrain.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 9:41 PM

Ariyl:
It is amazing how much energy is put into disuading another for doing the utmost for their children...very sad. Oppressive generation.

In 1995 I tried to give my children the best of everything. I worked 7 days a week, 16 hour days. I bought a 4 story mansion with 214 windows (former US Senator's home.) I spent $100K on "things" that year. I never went to church and seldom saw my children. I now live in a cramped old house with twice as many kids. I have to look up to see the poverty level. I talk to, hug, tease, discipline and see my children all day long, every day. The example of an honest, hard working self-sacrificing father is the best thing I will ever give them.

In 2 Samuel 12:9-12:10 King David was a thief. Twelve chapters later in 2 Samuel 24:24 we see King David has matured spiritually.

Love of mammon hurts. I'd rather pay twice or do without all-together. Go read the Bible to them or give them your Logos license. It isn't doing you much good.

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Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 21 2009 11:17 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I do suspect having the Microsoft Certified Partner haunting the halls of Logos HQ could be related.

Ultimately, I'll find some way to work around it, but the engineer in me is compelled to clarify.  My company is a MCP as well, and I've been programming windows at the kernel and service level for well over a decade, so I can definitely attest that what they have done is highly non-standard and deviates widely from the separation of binary and data paradigm inherent in the Windows application architecture.  There must have been some good reason for it, but I'm scratching my head as to what it is.  The security problems introduced with Vista are fairly easy to sidestep if the Windows security model is understood, so it must not have been security related.  If it was due to only wanting a single user on a computer maintain their settings, then that could have been achieved in a much more standardized fashion, so, again, that must not be it.  Oh well.

Matt

Specs:

  • Windows 7 x64
  • Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
  • 16GB RAM
  • Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
  • Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed
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    Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 12:16 AM

    Matt:
    If it was due to only wanting a single user on a computer maintain their settings, then that could have been achieved in a much more standardized fashion, so, again, that must not be it. 

    My understanding, of what you're discussing here (having backtracked through the discussion), and I'm not sure where I remember reading this, is that one reason for putting the program and data in the app data subdirectory is that it solves some problems related to private users installing on some large networks (as in educational institutions). There was another reason mentioned, but I'm not entirely sure what that was, and I may be leaving out some critical detail on what I am remembering. I'm not an IT person, so most of what was said didn't mean much at the time. The discussion was quite early on in the beta process and it's almost impossible to search old discussions in this forum software.

     

     Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

    Posts 687
    Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:09 AM

    Hi Matt,

    I guess you probably already thought of this, but....

    You could just install Logos4 for each user and then for the kids set Use Internet to No so that it doesn't sync with your stuff. If hard drive space is an issue you could copy the data directory to somewhere public (eg C:\Logos4\Data), and then make a link within each installation. (ie run an elevated command prompt and run mklink /d Data C:\Logos4\Data in each of the user's Logos4 directories.

    If you're feeling like a challenge -and I see you've got plenty of computer experience- a more elegant solution, if you can get it to work, would be to install the program once to a public location and then put the user specific stuff in their appdata directories. I mostly succeeded in doing this by doing the following:

    1. Backing up the Data and Documents directories and then uninstalling, deleting all files related to the previous installation, and reinstalling to C:\Logos4 (mimicking method 2 from these instructions for installing to multiple computers without having to redownload and index.)

    2. After logging into Logos4, and placing the data and documents subdirectories under the new <random> directory, I removed the document directory entirely from C:\Logos4 and created a Logos4 directory in each users' AppData\Roaming directory and copied it there.

    3.  I created the following batch file and created a task in Task Scheduler to run it with elevated privileges at login for each user. The mklink command would require each user to have admin privileges; although you could get rid of the mklink command and just copy the folder across instead.

    rmdir C:\Logos4\Documents /Q
    cd C:\Logos4
    mklink /d Documents %APPDATA%\Logos4\Documents

    4. Login to the kids' account, login to Logos 4 and set Use Internet to No to stop theres' from syncing.

    As I said at the start, I mostly got this to work. As I logged into each user the symbolic link to Documents in C:\Logos4 correctly redirected to the documents folder in that users' AppData directory. I also exported the Current User->Software->Logos4 keys from the user I installed with and imported it into the other users, though I don't know in the end if this was actually necessary. After setting Use Internet to No, changing settings in one user did not affect other users. It messed up my reading plan and for some reason Biblical People/Places/Things stopped working... go figure; I'm sure you could probably iron out the kinks.

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    Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:31 AM

    Richard DeRuiter:
    My understanding, of what you're discussing here (having backtracked through the discussion), and I'm not sure where I remember reading this, is that one reason for putting the program and data in the app data subdirectory is that it solves some problems related to private users installing on some large networks (as in educational institutions).

    I don't think so, Rich. If Corporates want to block installations it is very simple to do so. In any case, the large downloads of L4 can also be blocked (limited). There is also nothing special about the user AppData folder as it has the same access (Full Control) as the top-level <user name> folder due to inheritance.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 10 & Android 8

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    Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 8:37 AM

    Dave Hooton:
    There is also nothing special about the user AppData folder as it has the same access (Full Control) as the top-level <user name> folder due to inheritance.

    Yes true. But if you're going to have to put it under the User folder, what better place than AppData. If I remember right from the discussion, this is an emerging strategy for other programs as well. This isn't about getting around security concerns, but working with established LAN strategies for managing personal work stations.

    But I'm way out of my league here. I have a hard enough time connecting my shared printer to other computers through my home wireless router.

     Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

    Posts 116
    Matt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 11:10 AM

    Hi Jon,  first off, thanks so much for your detailed and thoughtful post!  I have copied out your instructions and when/if I decide to tackle this, I'll give it a go.  I wish Logos would recognize what a mess they've made of a simple software install for user's with families who all share a computer with no discernable benefit to a single user.  Anyway, I'm sure Logos has made note of this issue and they'll either address it or they won't.

    Matt

    Specs:

  • Windows 7 x64
  • Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
  • 16GB RAM
  • Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
  • Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed
    Posts 24
    Ariyl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 11:32 AM

    Matthew C Jones:

    Ariyl:
    How would you like a man to make a contract to take your children for X amount of years for a price, because you ended up a desperate fool? Do you suppose he can go to court and demand them or certain behavior from them?

    This is precisely what the prophet dealt with in the OT. He had the widow sell the oil & PAY off the debt. That is acknowledgement the debt was valid.

    At least you could think of the Scriptural story I had in mind. However, it flew over your head. I'm about done speaking with you, because you show your level of comprehension. You don't read well, as you ignored half the sentence.

    Concerning a refund, that is not possible with all. You really should try to give more than 5 seconds of thought before making statements like this. If a person buys this software and 31, 41, 51+ days down the line realizes it has this or other no disclosed unwanted flaws, can they demand a refund?  And IF so, how much hassle and money do you think he will spend fighting for it? Because you see, not everyone is going to realize this or other problems until much later. There are even people here that are having trouble comprehending what the problem is.

    Concerning terms of an agreement: Everyone must be a thief and hypocrite when you go into a store and purchase something on sale with a limit of ONE PER PERSON, but then turns around and shares it with family. Or a sale of LIMIT TWO PER HOUSEHOLD, but then takes one or both and gives it as a gift to another household, because theoretically it can be easily manipulated as 4, 6, 8 etc. Or how many lying, thieving hypocrites go 1, 2, 10, 20 mph over the speed LIMIT daily breaking their Agreement to USE a vehicle that can kill. So don't call someone a thief until you can admit that you're one, because there are an innumerable amount of ways a person is guilty of stealing and breaking Lawfully BINDING agreements etc You even buy unLawful property. Or maybe that car that goes 120 mph is Lawfully safe, when the law says the speed Limit is 60mph?. Did you sacrifice and buy that moped or electric car that only goes 60mph so you can live according to what is Lawful? Or did everyone read the EULAs that literally limit a person installing software on ONE machine. That is, when it breaks or gets stolen you literally are supposed to BUY another copy. Maybe everyone ignored that part, or deceived themselves in believing they didn't see it. Or like most, didn't read it, because their conscience knows much of it is not righteous. Or else that would make everyone liars, thieves and hypocrites in every sense of the words. And more importantly, it makes everyone an "i am holier than thou" Accuser.

    You need to realize that it is a Criminal Act in Scripture to sell someone something with the impression that it works as intended, but later turns out otherwise. I am lenient. I do not personally charge Logos for a refund on the grounds that they are selling a half COMPLETE software that is essentially a Beta at full value. Many of their features don't work and titles are corrupt etc. Do you think I or anyone agreed to all that? Every seller of software first falls in violation of Law, since it is a LIE that every software does everything that it is advertised to do. Moreover, it breaks another Law of disclosure amongst many other things. So tell me, which came First: The undisclosed lie/deceptive sell, or the purchase of it? So, is everyone truly agreeing to purchase and accept undisclosed, flawed property? Because IF EVERYTHING were honest and Lawful in the product and agreement, then by Law you cannot even complain when it doesn't work! So all these people reporting Legitimate problems are lying hypocrites as well? Or better yet, show me a righteous man in all Scripture that returned or complained about something he bought, and I'll show you a DECEIVED/CHEATED man. And I hardly believe they had written "warranties", because it goes without saying due to Scriptural Law protecting a person against EVER being deceived/cheated. Your Roman logic is absurd. Period.

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    Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 2:55 PM

    Ariyl:
    At least you could think of the Scriptural story I had in mind. However, it flew over your head. I'm about done speaking with you, because you show your level of comprehension. You don't read well, as you ignored half the sentence.

    After ripping the rug out from under your whole argument I didn't feel it neccessary. Your premise is wrong.

    Ariyl:
    Concerning a refund, that is not possible with all. You really should try to give more than 5 seconds of thought before making statements like this. If a person buys this software and 31, 41, 51+ days down the line realizes it has this or other no disclosed unwanted flaws,

    What "flaws" are you referring to? The features that prevent piracy? Since Logos Version 4 has not been out 30 days yet everybody who does not want to get caught pirating can get their money back. They can thank you for the red flags.

    Ariyl:
    There are even people here that are having trouble comprehending what the problem is.

     Yeah? Black helicopters? Maybe the premise is wrong. (Oh, I already said that.)

    Ariyl:
    Or maybe that car that goes 120 mph is Lawfully safe, when the law says the speed Limit is 60mph?. Did you sacrifice and buy that moped or electric car that only goes 60mph so you can live according to what is Lawful?

    If you have no self-control, you should get a pair of roller skates.  If you had a moped that goes over 60mph I think the Highway Patrolman who arrests you is your best friend. A co-worker of mine put a Corvette engine on a motorcycle. Just because it can be done does not make it wise, expedient or lawful.

    Ariyl:
    Or like most, didn't read it, because their conscience knows much of it is not righteous.

    Reminds me of Johnny Carson's The Great Karnack. How are you going to know what the EULA contains if you don't read it? Part of the EULA you agree to before installing the program says you read it. If the user lies about reading it why should he complain? Jeffrey Dahmer's conscience let him do lots of unlawfull things.

    Ariyl:
    Do you think I or anyone agreed to all that?

    If you didn't lie when you read and installed the Logos Version 4 software, you did in fact agree to it. We live in a fallen world. Babies die,  crops fail, cancer kills, banks fail, seedless watermelons have seeds! 

    Ariyl:
    So all these people reporting Legitimate problems are lying hypocrites as well?

     You know you have the right under Mosaic law to stone your teenager for rebellion? I sure hope you don't exercise your right. Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery. You can't find it in yourself to help Logos become even better? Where is the ministry of reconciliation? Where is the forgiving 70x7? Where is the covering of a multitude of sins? Almost everyone who posts "problems" in the forums loves Logos software and wants to help make the BEST even better.

     

     

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    Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 22 2009 3:56 PM

    Matthew C Jones:
    The example of an honest, hard working self-sacrificing father is the best thing I will ever give them.

    My statement yesterday is incorrect.

    .The utmost for our children is only found in the person of Jesus Christ.  You can call Him יהוה , אלוהים
        or यीशु, Иисус, พระเยซูคริสต์,  イエス・キリスト, Gesù, 耶穌,  예수,  ......even  λογος
    Just introduce your children to Him.

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    Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 24 2009 9:30 PM

    Matt:
    I work with VMs all day long, so other than the performance impact, it would be doable, but hardly ideal, and I think this unnecessarily complicate the computing and learning experience for my wife and kids.

     

    Wait a minute Matt!    I just read your specs:
    Windows 7 x64
    Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
    16GB RAM
    Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
    Logos 4 Platinum, SR-7, indexed   

    With that system all you need is 4x 1.5TB hard disk drives in a stripe/mirror RAID array and your family will never see the little hourglass again.  IF ONLY I had this for my homeschooling computer...  Devil

    ("Thou shalt not covet, Thou shalt not covet, Thou shalt not.."  Matthew mumbles as he exits.)

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    Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 25 2009 5:56 PM

    Ariyl,

    I'm sorry I'm so late to this thread.

    First of all, we care about great customer service. Your statement that "a refund is not possible with all" isn't true; our return policy is limited in days for technical reasons of legal liability, but from a practical point of view, we've offered refunds three years later. If you're unhappy with the software, we don't want to be holding onto your money.

    Your concerns about "auto log in" security are valid, but I think overblown with regards to Bible software. I think that if someone steals your laptop, messing with your Logos 4 notes and settings is probably not their intention. We aren't storing financial records. Yes, they could purchase things using your account, (though I'm not sure how they'd get your password out of the software), but all they can buy is Bible study materials, and we'd happily refund any false charges you identified.

    Moreover, proper security involves creating a user account on your system and putting a password on it. If you are security conscious, then anyone stealing your laptop would have the hardware, but would not be logged into your account, and thus unable to mess with your Logos settings.

    The issue of children messing with settings is difficult. I _do_ leave my machine logged into my account at home, because it's easier for me. And I find many "kid-induced" annoyances -- like unsaved homework assignments open on the screen in Microsoft Word. The kids have separate accounts (and now, separate computers), but I still suffer some inconveniences. (A friend of my daughter likes to put "<name> was here" on a 3d screensaver every time she encounters an unlocked machine.) It's a small price to pay for the convenience of not locking my machine every time I step away. (Which I do do at work.)

    I suppose we could build sophisticated master/dependent account management with separate document and setting management into the software. But it would introduce lots of complexity and, I fear, tempt many people to use it not for their kids, but rather to share accounts between independent adults. And since the "99% case" of our users are individuals who use it alone, we'd add a lot of complexity for little value, and possibly introduce lots of headaches. (What if you kept separate sub-accounts yourself, to manage different settings on different laptops, but then wanted to move a document from one account to another. Now we need UI, revision tracking, data merging, and lots more overhead.)

    I think of our user account like a cell phone. You can buy one for everyone in your family, or share one in a couple, or even for the whole family. If you share it -- and if you pass your phone to the kids in the backseat to play games while you drive, you'll find your wallpaper image changed and may have speed dial settings for other kids, and silly text messages in your message history. Buying each kid a phone costs more, though. But either way, we're all pretty glad our cell phones aren't complicated with a log in and profile management system we have to deal with!

    -- Bob

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