Sync Feature via Email & Password Activation Insecurites
I'm sure there are many circumstances that makes Logos 4 Sync Feature / Email & Password activation disrespectful of a buyer's security. For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. Not so in Logos 4. Email & Password loss or misuse is much more insecure than loss of a Key file. A Key logger for example needs only to see what you typed as opposed to hacking your machine and looking for a Key file that may not even be on that machine.
So if / when a computer or an easier Email & Password is stolen or misused, one can logon to Logos.com and buy up everything if you left a credit card on file. Also, does everyone have children or family they fully trust to NEVER find a reason to misuse your personal account Email & Password that activates Logos 4? So you may also easily lose years of work / markup settings for any unwanted install or misuse of your account info due to the online Sync Feature. I'm pretty sure I know the underlying reason why they "sold" this thought of installing Logos 4 on all of ones computers with a sync feature. I'll leave that for my in-depth blogs. Anyways, how is that share friendly when one can no longer install Logos 4 for his own child, because your own settings will be manipulated? Am I being manipulated / forced to spend thousands of dollars for my children to secure my own primary machine from being manipulated in what is supposed to be a share friendly / secure Sync Feature? Or maybe my CHILDREN are being forced to spend the thousands. Hmm...
Proposed Fix:
1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).
2. Have option to ALLOW sync feature across designated computers via separate shared User Name / Password(s)
Comments
Regarding installing for wife and family, please see Bob's opinion at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265
Proposed Fix:
1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).
It is no hassle to force someone to work offline by NOT suppling the sign-in details. They just have to start L4 holding the Ctrl key. If there is no internet connection it will work off-line automatically. You can update off-line via occasional install DVD's or more regularly (a slight "hassle"), but this will avoid the sync issue.
Dave
===
Windows 11 & Android 13
Now, I might be getting somewhere. But initally, the Email/Password Account info must be entered in order to initially install the resources, right? From what I understand, it must connect to Logos servers to sync licensest? So how do you FORCE someone to remember to disable L4 from getting online with that command after the fact? Once L4 is initally installed and licences are synced, the Email/Password is stored, so it has free access to Sync everytime it runs (unless one FORCES another to remember that command when starting L4?). Even still, there is the problem with theft. Someone can still damage years of work. But do explain further if I've missed something concerning the activation.
The EULA (software license agreement) says you can put it on as many computers as you use personally, not your kids, and in reality, not even your wife, and definitely not your friends. So your post actually admits to breaking the EULA for 3, and asks Logos to change the password activation to make it easier for you to break the EULA for 4.
No you cannot share the program to your kids just because you bought it. You can't do it for any program you pay for - windows, games, music you buy.
You are being forced to spend money for your children to have their own copy, that is true, that is the way software sales work.
I think you better rethink your post, your admitting to breaking the law.
poster - Which law exactly.....?
Well, of the 10 commandments it would be 8, "You shall not steal."
Not sure where you live, but in the US, it would be called stealing, and when you are caught doing it to say microsoft, even if it was by mistake, they try and take a lot of your money from you.
Michael,
that was me... I thought that you'd come on a bit strong and then I re-read the first post and realised that you were spot on and so I deleted my post.
The ability to quickly delete posts is a blessing as is the ability to edit them.
Given that I had deleted my post there was no need to reply to it....
(I really don't need to have the 10 commandments quoted to me - but, for your information, for Catholics and Lutherans, the commandment to not steal is no. 7)
Warning: Totally Off-Topic Post. But I just have to ask:
Damian,
Can you please enlighten me on what the 10 commandments are for Lutherans & Catholics. You can leave a "private message" on my forum profile page. Maybe you can direct me to a Logos resource or Vatican website. My interest is piqued. I will begin my quest
In all sincerity, Matthew
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
Damian,
You are right, both times. I came on too strong, and then lectured you as I responded to your deleted post. It was stupid of me, I apologize.
Commandment 7? Really? Are 2 of them combined, or moved around or? I'm really asking, please don't read this any other way. Exodus 20 is where I found the list below (I'm guessing you know that, I had to look it up). Again, given my previous post, I want to make sure you understand, I am really asking, not being a jerk.
1 - 3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
2. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, ....
3. 7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
4. 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. 12“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
6 13 “You shall not murder.
7 14 “You shall not commit adultery.
8. 15“You shall not steal.
9. 16“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. 17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife,
Actually untrue. Microsoft's EULA is typically per machine and they even advertise Mom, Dad, the kids, etc. all having their own accounts on the one machine and being able to save their individual settings. There is something about only one person using the software at a time, but I'm not sure how that all works out in the nitty gritty. Bottom line is that they don't want their software installed on more than one machine unless the proper number of licenses have been purchased for it.
Also, as regards music, if that were true, then I wouldn't be able to let my kids listen to any of the CDs I've purchased over the years.
I'm merely correcting this because I don't want anyone to be misinformed and therefore worrying about being a thief needlessly.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed
The original post sounds like adult children are using a duplicate installation of ONE Logos license to avoid paying for their own. This is theft. No wonder the posting parent has concerns. If my kids were willing to use stolen software they might also misuse my credit card information. [:O]
Applying this same conduct to music would be like making copies of your CD collection and giving those copies to you family and friends so they can avoid purchasing their own, the whole time retaining the original so the artist loses a sale for every copy you made. Theft again.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
Michael,
No worries....
Michael and Matthew
I posted this on Matthew's user page:
Info can be found on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Catholic_and_Lutheran_Christianity
The Catholic Catechism on the commandments here: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/decalog.html
It's all based on Augustine...
Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments:
How did you come to the conclusin that I have adult children? Please explain your logic to us all why you would go there. For your information, I have two minor children and one that barely made adulthood. Let's not make assumptiions that may cause one to be swayed or not grasp the concern. The concern is for those with children and without, since there is also a theft issue. You should read everything carefully.
Sir, iTunes promotes HOME FILE SHARING. Have you ever heard of the gift of SHARING? Are you a captialist? Has it ever dawned on you that the Devil hates the concept of shariing with your family, because it promotes unity and eases oppression? Its called BRAINWASHING one to think Stealing and Sharing are synonymous. Most EULA are wirtten due to what others (government, persons, vendors, companies etc) that are being dealt with want. One man did not write L4, nor owns all the L4's Books. Many others holding various licenses are involved. It's like making a deal with the Devil. The Devil is greedy for money, but your focus is getting the Word of Yahweh out by any means.You are not going to hear a company publicly tell you they permit what is not in their EULA. They would lose contracts, money, and that ultimate opportunity to get their production out. It is a compromised EULA. It is not the last word. We should all know Who has the last word, so read on and understand what the Last Word is in Truth. Stand up for your true rights and children.
As I said above, I was too strong I apologize.
The point I was trying to make with windows was you put it on one computer, you can't then send the program to your kids to use on theirs. When you download a song from ITunes, you can't then send it to your kids to use on their computers (although the newer network sharing allows for limited ability to do this).
Sorry for being harsh in my posts.
Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.
You aren't serious, are you?
If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.
I'm glad you love your children and want them to get a full grasp of the Truth found in the Scriptures. But there's no reason to attack a brother in the Lord like this, comparing him to an "Adversary" (your capital), suggesting 'the adversary' namely Satan. That, brother, is also disrespecting the teaching of Scripture (Ephesians 4:29-32, e.g.).
The Logos EULA, which you had to agree to when you installed the software, specifically states that you may have it for one user. Bob, in a statement he made here (see discussion cited by Bradly above) says that he doesn't mind if spouses and young children share a copy, under the right circumstances. And in fact, what you're asking about probably fits within those guidelines.
As for what it is you're wanting. I think you need to understand that if you're using software in a way other than it was intended, you're going to have problems. Sometimes these are big, sometimes they're small.
EDIT: I reread your original post. You speak of 'sending' keys and such via email. If you are sending these to adult children outside your home, you are in violation of the EULA, no matter how loosely it may be construed.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
No, but the whole DRM thing is slipperier than that. I can go to a bookstore accompanied by my child, pick out and pay for a Bible and leave. When I am standing outside the store, I fully expect to be able to hand my child that Bible without the store manager coming out and accusing me of wrongdoing.
Similarly, I also have a largish print library in my house. My children have access to and the right to use any of those books. However, the concept of one-book-one license-one user cuts right across that normal practice.
I don't advocate violating the EULA, and Bob's postings on this seem to allow some freedom of conscience for occasional family use. Many things such as movies, CDs, books, etc. are legitimately bought for family use. I believe that in the long term, the push for stricter per-user licensing, even in the family setting is going to create a backlash.
[edit] re: backlash; I was referring to this in the context of any digital content, not just Logos. Just wanted to make that clear.
my $.02
Larry
AKA WillyBurger
Sir, you err in your analagy. You are comparing a literal TAKING of two tangible objects from OUT OF a store (OUT OF another's POSSESSION). I'm talking about the USE OF what I have bought and now have IN MY OWN POSSESSION. We are talking about the Lawful USE OF a software and not the acquiring OWNERSHIP of a separate tangible object. You not only hastily jumped in this, but your "analogy" calls me a thief. Children weren't ALLOWED to enter the Temple freely to TAKE/STEAL any tangible thing OUT OF it. But they benefitted freely from its USE. But never mind trying to comprehend that point. Hopefully you will see the other dangerous and underlying problems before you pay dearly down the road with this software.
Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions? Can your mind comprehend the circumstances of many people having minor children that don't live with them and thus have the need to email them info for various reasons? Can you grasp the problem of having minor children who could no longer use this software without the risks that are being spoken of here? If you can grasp how one's child cannot use this software without said risks, why in the world are you throwing these outlandish and irrelevant assumptions in here?! Because not once have you spoken up for the children in this predicament. So I now question your motives here. TRY TO FOCUS ON THAT instead of irrelevant assumptions. So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply. I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
This is commendable. However, it also carries the responsibility to not purchase a product for which you are unwilling to accept the conditions of that purchase. It becomes the equivalent of "stealing" just as using pirated copies of DVD, CD, books, etc. is stealing. True, you could correctly claim that there is no indication that the concept of intellectual property at the time the 10 Commandments were delivered. But then again, there is little evidence of personal property (in contrast to family property) at that time.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
To accept a product and not agree to accept the conditions for that purchase becomes the equvalent of stealing? What kind of boat did that fall off? That makes no sense.Sir, Roman law does not even hold one accountable for anything ILLEGALLY written in a contract. Anything that is illegal in it would be dismissed and what is binding will stand. EXAMPLE (try to think of other examples): How would you like a man to make a contract to take your children for X amount of years for a price, because you ended up a desperate fool? Do you suppose he can go to court and demand them or certain behavior from them? I don't know what book y'all read from, but it sure doesn't have anything to do with believing in all Scriptural Truth.
When you install Logos you gave your word to follow the EULA. If you don't you have lied. (it's in your Bible)
The Logos EULA is legal. What's more, if you don't like it you have a 30 day money back guarantee. (You only get money back if you paid for it.)
This is precisely what the prophet dealt with in the OT. He had the widow sell the oil & PAY off the debt. That is acknowledgement the debt was valid.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
At least you could think of the Scriptural story I had in mind. However, it flew over your head. I'm about done speaking with you, because you show your level of comprehension. You don't read well, as you ignored half the sentence.
Concerning a refund, that is not possible with all. You really should try to give more than 5 seconds of thought before making statements like this. If a person buys this software and 31, 41, 51+ days down the line realizes it has this or other no disclosed unwanted flaws, can they demand a refund? And IF so, how much hassle and money do you think he will spend fighting for it? Because you see, not everyone is going to realize this or other problems until much later. There are even people here that are having trouble comprehending what the problem is.
Concerning terms of an agreement: Everyone must be a thief and hypocrite when you go into a store and purchase something on sale with a limit of ONE PER PERSON, but then turns around and shares it with family. Or a sale of LIMIT TWO PER HOUSEHOLD, but then takes one or both and gives it as a gift to another household, because theoretically it can be easily manipulated as 4, 6, 8 etc. Or how many lying, thieving hypocrites go 1, 2, 10, 20 mph over the speed LIMIT daily breaking their Agreement to USE a vehicle that can kill. So don't call someone a thief until you can admit that you're one, because there are an innumerable amount of ways a person is guilty of stealing and breaking Lawfully BINDING agreements etc You even buy unLawful property. Or maybe that car that goes 120 mph is Lawfully safe, when the law says the speed Limit is 60mph?. Did you sacrifice and buy that moped or electric car that only goes 60mph so you can live according to what is Lawful? Or did everyone read the EULAs that literally limit a person installing software on ONE machine. That is, when it breaks or gets stolen you literally are supposed to BUY another copy. Maybe everyone ignored that part, or deceived themselves in believing they didn't see it. Or like most, didn't read it, because their conscience knows much of it is not righteous. Or else that would make everyone liars, thieves and hypocrites in every sense of the words. And more importantly, it makes everyone an "i am holier than thou" Accuser.
You need to realize that it is a Criminal Act in Scripture to sell someone something with the impression that it works as intended, but later turns out otherwise. I am lenient. I do not personally charge Logos for a refund on the grounds that they are selling a half COMPLETE software that is essentially a Beta at full value. Many of their features don't work and titles are corrupt etc. Do you think I or anyone agreed to all that? Every seller of software first falls in violation of Law, since it is a LIE that every software does everything that it is advertised to do. Moreover, it breaks another Law of disclosure amongst many other things. So tell me, which came First: The undisclosed lie/deceptive sell, or the purchase of it? So, is everyone truly agreeing to purchase and accept undisclosed, flawed property? Because IF EVERYTHING were honest and Lawful in the product and agreement, then by Law you cannot even complain when it doesn't work! So all these people reporting Legitimate problems are lying hypocrites as well? Or better yet, show me a righteous man in all Scripture that returned or complained about something he bought, and I'll show you a DECEIVED/CHEATED man. And I hardly believe they had written "warranties", because it goes without saying due to Scriptural Law protecting a person against EVER being deceived/cheated. Your Roman logic is absurd. Period.
Ariyl,
I'm sorry I'm so late to this thread.
First of all, we care about great customer service. Your statement that "a refund is not possible with all" isn't true; our return policy is limited in days for technical reasons of legal liability, but from a practical point of view, we've offered refunds three years later. If you're unhappy with the software, we don't want to be holding onto your money.
Your concerns about "auto log in" security are valid, but I think overblown with regards to Bible software. I think that if someone steals your laptop, messing with your Logos 4 notes and settings is probably not their intention. We aren't storing financial records. Yes, they could purchase things using your account, (though I'm not sure how they'd get your password out of the software), but all they can buy is Bible study materials, and we'd happily refund any false charges you identified.
Moreover, proper security involves creating a user account on your system and putting a password on it. If you are security conscious, then anyone stealing your laptop would have the hardware, but would not be logged into your account, and thus unable to mess with your Logos settings.
The issue of children messing with settings is difficult. I _do_ leave my machine logged into my account at home, because it's easier for me. And I find many "kid-induced" annoyances -- like unsaved homework assignments open on the screen in Microsoft Word. The kids have separate accounts (and now, separate computers), but I still suffer some inconveniences. (A friend of my daughter likes to put "<name> was here" on a 3d screensaver every time she encounters an unlocked machine.) It's a small price to pay for the convenience of not locking my machine every time I step away. (Which I do do at work.)
I suppose we could build sophisticated master/dependent account management with separate document and setting management into the software. But it would introduce lots of complexity and, I fear, tempt many people to use it not for their kids, but rather to share accounts between independent adults. And since the "99% case" of our users are individuals who use it alone, we'd add a lot of complexity for little value, and possibly introduce lots of headaches. (What if you kept separate sub-accounts yourself, to manage different settings on different laptops, but then wanted to move a document from one account to another. Now we need UI, revision tracking, data merging, and lots more overhead.)
I think of our user account like a cell phone. You can buy one for everyone in your family, or share one in a couple, or even for the whole family. If you share it -- and if you pass your phone to the kids in the backseat to play games while you drive, you'll find your wallpaper image changed and may have speed dial settings for other kids, and silly text messages in your message history. Buying each kid a phone costs more, though. But either way, we're all pretty glad our cell phones aren't complicated with a log in and profile management system we have to deal with!
-- Bob
There are comments elsewhere in regard to getting L4 to work in different user accounts as independent installations, but the central issue is the download burden with multiple installations and/or re-installations because of hardware failure. It would be a simple matter for the installer to request a local resource path and have only to download what is missing or needs an update. I would think the advantages to both user and Logos are quite obvious, as well as benefiting the load on the internet as a whole!
Dave
===
Windows 11 & Android 13
I'm amazed at the number of unofficial Logos spokespersons, armchair lawyers, armchair DRM/copyright law experts, and judges of men's hearts that have popped up in this thread.
I don't mind being called names, or responding to criticism, but it would help if I could figure out what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say I am keeping the Word from you, your family and the world by pointing out that you are breaking the law by sharing Logos, I don't think that holds much water - there is at least one free bible program available (the sword), download that and share it all you want.
You criticizing my faith or my love of my Lord or scripture because you want to justify stealing seems kind of hypocritical.
From where have you deceived yourself into believing that you have ponted out that I am breaking the law by sharing Logos? Are you going to cite man's roman law to me and demand that I have faith in it? That would be foolish. You sure aren't going to cite the Truth.
Why would you try to convince me to resort to a limited freeware to educate my children, while I have Logos 4? How wicked a thought! Show yourself. I'm amused now. Oh, I see who you have love for...