- I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
- You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
- Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
- Honor your father and your mother
- You shall not kill
- You shall not commit adultery
- You shall not steal
- You shall not bear false witness
- You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
- You shall not covet your neighbor's goods
Sync Feature via Email & Password Activation Insecurites
Ariyl
Member Posts: 24 ✭✭
I'm sure there are many circumstances that makes Logos 4 Sync Feature / Email & Password activation disrespectful of a buyer's security. For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. Not so in Logos 4. Email & Password loss or misuse is much more insecure than loss of a Key file. A Key logger for example needs only to see what you typed as opposed to hacking your machine and looking for a Key file that may not even be on that machine.
So if / when a computer or an easier Email & Password is stolen or misused, one can logon to Logos.com and buy up everything if you left a credit card on file. Also, does everyone have children or family they fully trust to NEVER find a reason to misuse your personal account Email & Password that activates Logos 4? So you may also easily lose years of work / markup settings for any unwanted install or misuse of your account info due to the online Sync Feature. I'm pretty sure I know the underlying reason why they "sold" this thought of installing Logos 4 on all of ones computers with a sync feature. I'll leave that for my in-depth blogs. Anyways, how is that share friendly when one can no longer install Logos 4 for his own child, because your own settings will be manipulated? Am I being manipulated / forced to spend thousands of dollars for my children to secure my own primary machine from being manipulated in what is supposed to be a share friendly / secure Sync Feature? Or maybe my CHILDREN are being forced to spend the thousands. Hmm...
Proposed Fix:
1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).
2. Have option to ALLOW sync feature across designated computers via separate shared User Name / Password(s)
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Comments
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The EULA (software license agreement) says you can put it on as many computers as you use personally, not your kids, and in reality, not even your wife, and definitely not your friends. So your post actually admits to breaking the EULA for 3, and asks Logos to change the password activation to make it easier for you to break the EULA for 4.
No you cannot share the program to your kids just because you bought it. You can't do it for any program you pay for - windows, games, music you buy.
You are being forced to spend money for your children to have their own copy, that is true, that is the way software sales work.
I think you better rethink your post, your admitting to breaking the law.
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So I got this by e-mail update on this thread, but then when I came to the thread it was already gone.(I deleted the sender)
Michael Birney: your admitting to breaking the law.
poster - Which law exactly.....?
Well, of the 10 commandments it would be 8, "You shall not steal."
Not sure where you live, but in the US, it would be called stealing, and when you are caught doing it to say microsoft, even if it was by mistake, they try and take a lot of your money from you.
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Regarding installing for wife and family, please see Bob's opinion at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265
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Michael,
that was me... I thought that you'd come on a bit strong and then I re-read the first post and realised that you were spot on and so I deleted my post.
The ability to quickly delete posts is a blessing as is the ability to edit them.
Given that I had deleted my post there was no need to reply to it....
(I really don't need to have the 10 commandments quoted to me - but, for your information, for Catholics and Lutherans, the commandment to not steal is no. 7)
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Michael Birney said:
You can't do it for any program you pay for - windows, games, music you buy.
Actually untrue. Microsoft's EULA is typically per machine and they even advertise Mom, Dad, the kids, etc. all having their own accounts on the one machine and being able to save their individual settings. There is something about only one person using the software at a time, but I'm not sure how that all works out in the nitty gritty. Bottom line is that they don't want their software installed on more than one machine unless the proper number of licenses have been purchased for it.
Also, as regards music, if that were true, then I wouldn't be able to let my kids listen to any of the CDs I've purchased over the years.
I'm merely correcting this because I don't want anyone to be misinformed and therefore worrying about being a thief needlessly.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Damian McGrath said:
(I really don't need to have the 10 commandments quoted to me - but, for your information, for Catholics and Lutherans, the commandment to not steal is no. 7)
Warning: Totally Off-Topic Post. But I just have to ask:
Damian,
Can you please enlighten me on what the 10 commandments are for Lutherans & Catholics. You can leave a "private message" on my forum profile page. Maybe you can direct me to a Logos resource or Vatican website. My interest is piqued. I will begin my quest
In all sincerity, Matthew
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Damian,
You are right, both times. I came on too strong, and then lectured you as I responded to your deleted post. It was stupid of me, I apologize.
Commandment 7? Really? Are 2 of them combined, or moved around or? I'm really asking, please don't read this any other way. Exodus 20 is where I found the list below (I'm guessing you know that, I had to look it up). Again, given my previous post, I want to make sure you understand, I am really asking, not being a jerk.
1 - 3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
2. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, ....
3. 7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
4. 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. 12“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
6 13 “You shall not murder.
7 14 “You shall not commit adultery.
8. 15“You shall not steal.
9. 16“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. 17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife,
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ex 20:3-17). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
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Matt said:
Bottom line is that they don't want their software installed on more than one machine unless the proper number of licenses have been purchased for it.
Also, as regards music, if that were true, then I wouldn't be able to let my kids listen to any of the CDs I've purchased over the years.
The original post sounds like adult children are using a duplicate installation of ONE Logos license to avoid paying for their own. This is theft. No wonder the posting parent has concerns. If my kids were willing to use stolen software they might also misuse my credit card information. [:O]
Applying this same conduct to music would be like making copies of your CD collection and giving those copies to you family and friends so they can avoid purchasing their own, the whole time retaining the original so the artist loses a sale for every copy you made. Theft again.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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As I said above, I was too strong I apologize.
The point I was trying to make with windows was you put it on one computer, you can't then send the program to your kids to use on theirs. When you download a song from ITunes, you can't then send it to your kids to use on their computers (although the newer network sharing allows for limited ability to do this).
Sorry for being harsh in my posts.
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Michael,
No worries....
Michael and Matthew
I posted this on Matthew's user page:
Info can be found on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Catholic_and_Lutheran_Christianity
The Catholic Catechism on the commandments here: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/decalog.html
It's all based on Augustine...
Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments:
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Thank you very much Damian! Years ago I had a very vague encounter with this difference but had nobody to inquire of. I will read upon this. [*]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ariyl said:
Proposed Fix:
1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).
It is no hassle to force someone to work offline by NOT suppling the sign-in details. They just have to start L4 holding the Ctrl key. If there is no internet connection it will work off-line automatically. You can update off-line via occasional install DVD's or more regularly (a slight "hassle"), but this will avoid the sync issue.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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There was also a Bible Study Magazine article that covered the divisions of the Ten Commandments: http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/commandments/
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Bradley Grainger said:
There was also a Bible Study Magazine article that covered the divisions of the Ten Commandments: http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/commandments
Come on Bradley, you've got to use the marketing tools that we give you! Come on man, pretty pictures!
[:D]
Counting the Ten Commandments -- at BibleStudyMagazine.com
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Dan Pritchett said:
Come on man, pretty pictures!
he was probably thinking that is what his Avatar is for.
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Philip Spitzer said:Dan Pritchett said:
Come on man, pretty pictures!
he was probably thinking that is what his Avatar is for.
Phil!!!! Right now you can't talk about pretty Avatars!!
You'll probably put one up to make this post look ridiculous!!!
Chris
[:)]
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I think the original poster brings up a good point though. I have four children all under the age of 12 who are all being homeschooled. I had assumed that it would be no problem to let my oldest learn and use the software, just as I am letting him use and learn Mathematica, Britannica, Encarta, Rosetta Stone, OED, Office, etc. Even my six year old would enjoy being on the computer to use the software. In fact, the whole family is excited about it.
If I got the tone of Bob Pritchett's post right, and I have not simply morphed it for my own sinful profit, I don't think he would have a problem with my children accessing and using the software. However, if I am not a thief in doing so, because I need to sign in coupled with the fact that the software installs in the UserData\Local ?! folder, I run the risk of having my child ruin any settings, notes, etc, I have potentially spent many, many hours putting together.
Hmm, I just logged in under one of my children's accounts, and because Logos 4 is installed in the AppData for a given user as opposed to 'Program Files' where every other piece of software has been installed, the program cannot be accessed by my children, so Logos has essentially made this impossible with their installation scheme. This seems rather draconian. If I'm still within the Logos EULA as adumbrated by Bob Pritchett, I guess I could create a 'universal' account that all of us would need to use whenever we wanted to access Logos 4, but this is hardly tenable because now, in order to access the software, one would have to leave behind all of their current software that is up and running (where each program is tailored to the user's needs by virtue of the non-shared settings of each user account), in order to access Logos 4. i.e. I often come across people, places and things with which I am either unfamiliar or want more information on, and I usually have Encarta, Britannica, the Merriam Webster's dictionary, and the OED open so I can due some side research, and I've taught my children to do the same. It's certainly nice to be able to flip between these various resources.
It appears that even if I weren't violating the spirit of the EULA, Logos 4 has made it impossible for me to let my homeschooled children use the software because of their installation practice. I can't purchase each of them their own Logos Platinum due to the prohibitive cost (although, to be honest, I figured I'd use it like every other piece of software that my children can currently use with no EULA violation or technical problems whatsoever). Even though it would be a stretch, I guess I could purchase each of them their own Bible Study Library. As we share one computer with different login accounts, can I install Logos Platinum, Logos Bible Study Library, and another copy of Logos Bible Study Library together on one machine and have all the settings remain separate and unmolested to avoid the problem the poster was referring to in terms of corruption? It does look as though for at least some part of the install/uninstall, the installer and/or software proper access the HKLM node of the registry which is shared amongst all users. If that is so, it looks as though in order to have my children to be able to use Logos 4 with their own settings/preferences, I would need to have a separate computer for each one with each having their own licensed copy of Logos 4. In one sense, this makes Microsoft's EULA look like a fun time at the park. I am hoping this was simply an oversight and is all part of the launch pains of Logos 4.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Chris Elford said:
Phil!!!! Right now you can't talk about pretty Avatars!!
What you don't like puppies?
I don't mean this to be harsh but regarding the original post, if I go to the home page and click on my email address it takes me to a login screen. It doesn't automatically log me in. If I don't know the my password I can't access my account or post to a forum. Considering that most online stores use an email address we provide for identification I don't feel that this is an issue. After all, spammers have no problem finding our email addresses. The convenience of downloading resources when I need to reinstall is worth it to me, just like the convenience of being able to buy things over the internet. Some of the other forums mentioned an option to install Logos completely offline for people with slow of no internet access if this is a real concern.
If you have children old enough to use Logos accessing your computer then you have more things to worry about than Logos using your email address to identify you. I've cleaned up a number of computers for people after their teenagers downloaded malware. Not to mention that if they are sharing music you may recieve a letter from the RIAA.
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Matt said:
I had assumed that it would be no problem to let my oldest learn and use the software, just as I am letting him use and learn Mathematica, Britannica, Encarta, Rosetta Stone, OED, Office, etc. Even my six year old would enjoy being on the computer to use the software. In fact, the whole family is excited about it.
I think it is great that your children are interested in using logos. EULAs seem to differ quite a bit. Norton seems to sell several licenses at once with some software, our church software is "site-wide" and has no restrictions on how many computers or users there may be. I doubt that many of us would think that showing our children things on Logos and letting them have a go at using it would cause any actual legal action. [:D] But none of us wish to steal either.
So my question is; is Matt correct in his understanding of the restrictions on the use of Logos4 within a family?
Eddie
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just followed links to other posts on this topic and I think my question is answered.
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WARNING: still totally off-topic from the dismaying original post. [:$]
OK. As usual, Dan the Man is right on the money. Pretty pictures do sell.Dan Pritchett said:Come on Bradley, you've got to use the marketing tools that we give you! Come on man, pretty pictures!
Counting the Ten Commandments -- at BibleStudyMagazine.com
I subscribed to BSM the first year and enjoyed much (but not all) of the articles. I thought I had read each issue front to back. When I did not renew my subscription I was surprised to see the Nov/Dec issue arrive. Now that Bradley has directed me to the very interesting article I missed, I see that I really ought to re-subscribe. [And Thanks Damian for the links & education.]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matt said:
I think the original poster brings up a good point though. I have four children all under the age of 12 who are all being homeschooled. I had assumed that it would be no problem to let my oldest learn and use the software, just as I am letting him use and learn Mathematica, Britannica, Encarta, Rosetta Stone, OED, Office, etc. Even my six year old would enjoy being on the computer to use the software. In fact, the whole family is excited about it.
If I got the tone of Bob Pritchett's post right, and I have not simply morphed it for my own sinful profit, I don't think he would have a problem with my children accessing and using the software. However, if I am not a thief in doing so, because I need to sign in coupled with the fact that the software installs in the UserData\Local ?! folder, I run the risk of having my child ruin any settings, notes, etc, I have potentially spent many, many hours putting together.
Matt,
You have made me see the original poster's concern more clearly. I guard my computer diligently because in the past my young 'uns have caused it much damage and loss of data. I even have cracker crumbs inside my laptop keyboard causing many typos. IF that is what the original poster was talking about, I apologize for, once again, over-reacting. BobP has made it clear how HE feels the EULA should be applied. The one thing it clearly forbids is a bunch of adults with individual computers having simultaneously availble installations of Logos running. Hopefully the original post is about little children living at home....
Would it be a bad idea to maintain a second laptop with Version 3 (which can easily be backed up & restored) available for the kiddos? That would insulate the notes & online backups involved in Version 4 from possible demise. When Gregg Harris taught the Homeschooling Workshop he suggested treating junk mail with the reverence we treat fine books. Our children would learn to properly respect our Logos 4 computer if we taught them to respect the Version 3 install.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Would it be a bad idea to maintain a second laptop with Version 3 (which can easily be backed up & restored) available for the kiddos? That would insulate the notes & online backups involved in Version 4 from possible demise.
That is a good way to prevent accidental loss.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Would it be a bad idea to maintain a second laptop with Version 3 (which can easily be backed up & restored) available for the kiddos? That would insulate the notes & online backups involved in Version 4 from possible demise. When Gregg Harris taught the Homeschooling Workshop he suggested treating junk mail with the reverence we treat fine books. Our children would learn to properly respect our Logos 4 computer if we taught them to respect the Version 3 install.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply! Hmm, I don't have a second computer in the home. Even if I did, then that would mean just in order to be able to use Logos, I would need to install all of the apps onto another computer, which would violate the EULA of most of the software that is currently working fine and legally on my current single computer! It seems that the single/dual *computer* model which (I believe) existed for Logos 3, was much better (not to mention it was installed where it's supposed to be, i.e. 'Program Files'). Even Adobe has more relaxed restrictions than Logos 4 does (and that's saying something!). A wonderful solution would be to:
1) Install the software in the directory intended for a software installation, namely "Program Files"
2) Store individual user's settings in the individual's AppData (with WinXP and earlier it's a different location) folder, thereby maintaining user settings integrity. It's still amazing software, but I think the existing paradigm followed by the major software vendors is much more friendly to a family sharing a computer. Maybe for one user (i.e. a user designated as the 'Administrator') the settings could be synchronized, and for everybody else, their settings would simply be stored locally. If necessary, I'd be more than willing to forego the sychronization option so I could have the software function as most other software does.
As an experiment, I just utlized the 'Switch User' functionality within Windows 7 (also exists in Vista) to log on with two other accounts simultaneously with my current logon. Within each, I was able to start Photoshop CS4 and have each instance load a different workspace and file. The other accounts were not members of the Administrator's group on the computer. Although all 3 users would not be able to use their running instances simultaneously, it does demonstrate that even for very heavily pirated software such as Adobe Photoshop CS4, multiple users (on a single machine) can utlize the software alongside other users with each having their own 'sandbox' to play in. I also did the same experiment with Britannica with no problems. This is the way software is supposed to function! But again, if this is the way Logos wants to do it, then that's their prerogative, although it has definitely chosen a road that is inimical to end users with a family.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.
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George Allakhverdyan said:Matthew C Jones said:
Would it be a bad idea to maintain a second laptop with Version 3 (which can easily be backed up & restored) available for the kiddos? That would insulate the notes & online backups involved in Version 4 from possible demise.
That is a good way to prevent accidental loss.
That "sounds" like a good idea, except my conscience would not at all be at ease knowing I've given my children second rated learning material or tools etc, while I enjoy the best. I live to give my children a BETTER or at least EQUAL opportunity than what I have or had growing up. Sorry, but I would want no one to convict me of that.
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Matt said:Matthew C Jones said:
As an experiment, I just utlized the 'Switch User' functionality within Windows 7 (also exists in Vista) to log on with two other accounts simultaneously with my current logon. Within each, I was able to start Photoshop CS4 and have each instance load a different workspace and file. The other accounts were not members of the Administrator's group on the computer. Although all 3 users would not be able to use their running instances simultaneously, it does demonstrate that even for very heavily pirated software such as Adobe Photoshop CS4, multiple users (on a single machine) can utlize the software alongside other users with each having their own 'sandbox' to play in. I also did the same experiment with Britannica with no problems. This is the way software is supposed to function! But again, if this is the way Logos wants to do it, then that's their prerogative, although it has definitely chosen a road that is inimical to end users with a family.
Matt
I really don't think Adobe has placed theft as a primary focus in designing their software, since it is futile and would cause many problems to the consumer if trying to implement obtrusive ways to combat it. For that reason, I do believe they are respectfully conscious of such circumstances as I've mentioned. None of the dozens of software titles I have prevent equal or unbound use as this new L4. Even my PS3 allows my games to be downloaded on FIVE different machines (which by the way is allowed in their personalized EULA). (by the way, they don't forcefully police that number - obviously there are people with more than 4 children) So I don't have to pay three more times for 99% of their PS3 titles for my children. PRAISE YAHWEH, they actually give a flip about the CHILDREN (despite what some grown fool might do). And my children don't have to have my email and password info to my PS3 account. The games can also be played online simultaneously as well. This works perfectly, since my youngest son doesn't live with me. Companies are not that stupid. Again, it is a shame that Logos 4 has now locked the CHILDREN out from having seperate, unbound use. I can't even install it on their machine, since it will affect everything I do. The only software I can think of that would forcibly prevent such simultaneous, unbound use as this L4 is a Microsoft OS. But there is obviously some logic to that. If there are any others, they are rare. And quite frankly, I would hate to invest in such a thoughtless company. Because they are acting ls if we can take this software with us to heaven forever after we die. And snce our lives are like the wind and sofware is also, it seems to be nothing short of blasphemous to also put obtrusive restrictions on its use against all who are not even promised tomorrow, for the sake of trying to preserve a dollar. Over 3 years, I've spent nearly 10 thousand dollars on this software. I cannot afford to pay this 3 times over, so my children can hear and learn the Word of Yahweh freely!
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Matt said:Matthew C Jones said:
Thanks for your thoughtful reply! Hmm, I don't have a second computer in the home. Even if I did, then that would mean just in order to be able to use Logos, I would need to install all of the apps onto another computer, which would violate the EULA of most of the software that is currently working fine and legally on my current single computer! It seems that the single/dual *computer* model which (I believe) existed for Logos 3, was much better (not to mention it was installed where it's supposed to be, i.e. 'Program Files'). Even Adobe has more relaxed restrictions than Logos 4 does (and that's saying something!). A wonderful solution would be to:
Matt
Installing Logos 4 on multiple computers does NOT violate the EULA. It is encraged and promoted due to its SYNC feature. They've even expanded it to iPods/iPhones. I suppose when a scenario such as having one of your computers stolen or accessed and all of your life's settings, markups, notes etc are INSTANTLY ruined, then maybe everyone will understand all my concerns more fully. I would think that people would be thankful for bringing it to their attention and sparing them the loss of what could be YEARS of work. There is a simple fix: Add serparate User Name / Passwords for the Sync feature. This will also give the master Password Account holder the ability to delete or deactivate any User Name or Sync ability in case of theft or unwanted use etc. Kind of how the iTunes Home Sharing Network feature works. They now encourage network FILE SHARING for up to 5 Users (except they don't remotely store the files for you like L4).
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[:S]
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Now, I might be getting somewhere. But initally, the Email/Password Account info must be entered in order to initially install the resources, right? From what I understand, it must connect to Logos servers to sync licensest? So how do you FORCE someone to remember to disable L4 from getting online with that command after the fact? Once L4 is initally installed and licences are synced, the Email/Password is stored, so it has free access to Sync everytime it runs (unless one FORCES another to remember that command when starting L4?). Even still, there is the problem with theft. Someone can still damage years of work. But do explain further if I've missed something concerning the activation.
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