Evangelical Exegetical Commentary

Page 2 of 2 (33 items) < Previous 1 2
This post has 32 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 129
RGP | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 1:50 AM

Yes

Posts 10882
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 4:06 AM

Into Grace:
First they only sold as a complete set. Then they added the option to purchase individual volumes. Now they seemed to have changed their minds yet again.

As per Phil, that's the case. One the one hand, many "early adopters" complained about selling the commentaries individually so early, on the other hand, maybe Logos were looking into the situation after they had opened it. Speculation: Perhaps Logos optimists expected many sales and a certain amount of increase in the subscriptions to the series - those users who saw the value in one and wanted to have all of them. Maybe one or both of this expectations didn't realize. I can imagine the subcription rate dropping to zero, since due to the long-stretched delivery schedule and the small price of the individual volumes, people now thought they can add every single one of the commentaries (or e.g. only the NT ones, or only those for major books) to their libraries when it appears. Maybe it was even worse: subscribers claiming their money back, perhaps making a (pretended) argument about the delivery schedule of a certain volume, while secretly hoping to still get all of EEC they want but without the long-term committment. 

However, I am with those who question the success of a new commentary series which is not proliferated, which is not reviewed, cited in other commentaries and in books about commentaries and isn't on the recommended reading list of the seminaries.

Into Grace:
I want to purchase the James commentary of this set, but they are gone

Too bad. James is the one I have and I happen to think it's excellent. If you are desparate you may try find someone who bought it and now sells it  to you (there'll be a $20 transfer fee from Logos on top), if you really really need it and find no-one you may ask me...

However, I think of one three star reviewer on http://www.logos.com/product/7565/evangelical-exegetical-commentary who wrote "I don't like the idea of buying a whole series without having the chance to dig into at least one. Too bad that Logos chooses to publish it this way... " and got 'likes' for it. In light of Jayson Bradley's very convincing Logos Blog entry http://blog.logos.com/2011/02/how_to_check_out_a_collectionrisk-free/ I would urge Logos to open up the sale of at least one of the existing EEC volumes to allow people to test-drive and multipliers to review. This one volume should IMO be James: a relevant book, interesting because of the perceived discrepancies to Pauline letters, a commentary with some interesting theories, such as James was the first NT book written. It even has its page on BestCommentaries and collected some points to make it #19. Maybe let someone even make it into a Kindle format book and put it on Amazon. It's not so much about getting excellent reviews (which should happen nevertheless) but about getting the word out.

My 2c

Mick

 

 

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 1357
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 4:36 AM

Phil Gons:

After several internal discussions and carefully reviewing our prior marketing statements, we decided that we should not make individual EEC volumes available for purchase yet. We'll reevaluate this in the future as the set gets closer to completion. We're sorry for the frustration this may cause some of you.

Phil, as best I recall, most of the others that have commited to the set, like I have, have agreed that the EEC individual volumes should be made available to anyone as they become available.

The problem was that the marketing had made it clear that it was only going to be sold as a set. That seemed strange to everyone at the time. It was a motivation to commit to the set (sight unseen!) along with special pricing and financing.

The confusion came when the volumes began to appear individually in contradiction to the original marketing.

Those of us who originally purchased the set did experience a degree of frustration with changing statements from Logos about the set from when it was announced until today. We still got a better deal than anyone else will get (I assume!). It does not harm us for others to be able to buy the volumes as they become available. It should help expand the establishment of the series in the marketplace. 

The latest decision (not communicated to the Logos community until inquiries were made--again) just adds to the confusion.

For a company that is constantly communicating to its users and potential customers (to the point people complain about being innudated), Logos seems to come up short in communicating at critical times.  

Posts 2131
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 8:27 AM

I am often looking for the Both/And rather than the Either/Or solution.

I understood the early marketing to say "this will only be available as a set" and realize some purchasers committed to the whole set based upon the same understanding.

I also think a publisher should be able to revise its strategy.

Would an acceptable compromise be:

1. Early purchasers of the set lock in the price they committed to.

2. Current purchasers of the set pay 1.5x what those who took a risk and pre-ordered paid.

3. Current individual volumes are available at 3x the cost per volume of the early preorders.

4. As a sign of good faith for those who feel they have been misled (whether intentionally or not), Logos could offer individual volumes to those who pre-ordered the set at a rate of 1.25 times the per volume cost for those who wish to convert from a set to individual volume agreement.

I realize some individual volumes cost more to produce than others, so maybe the ratios I suggest could be guidelines rather than hard and fast pricing.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 11:27 AM

David Thomas:

I am often looking for the Both/And rather than the Either/Or solution.

I understood the early marketing to say "this will only be available as a set" and realize some purchasers committed to the whole set based upon the same understanding.

I also think a publisher should be able to revise its strategy.

Would an acceptable compromise be:

1. Early purchasers of the set lock in the price they committed to.

2. Current purchasers of the set pay 1.5x what those who took a risk and pre-ordered paid.

3. Current individual volumes are available at 3x the cost per volume of the early preorders.

4. As a sign of good faith for those who feel they have been misled (whether intentionally or not), Logos could offer individual volumes to those who pre-ordered the set at a rate of 1.25 times the per volume cost for those who wish to convert from a set to individual volume agreement.

I realize some individual volumes cost more to produce than others, so maybe the ratios I suggest could be guidelines rather than hard and fast pricing.

 

 

I choose to approach the issue from an ethical angle

I have nothing against more users getting access to EEC volumes as it can only be beneficial for the whole series and similar projects from Logos in the future.

However, I do not think that a publisher’s "freedom to revise a strategy" extends to going back on previous marketing statements(which are nothing short of commitments) before they have fulfilled their part of the contract  no more than they are free to substantially change the format of the series after marketing it a certain way.

There is no middle ground, either past commitments are kept or they are not. It is a matter of principles and with the amount of money I have invested over the years, I hold this company to high standards. If I cannot trust them to honor all commitments about the EEC, why should I trust them for other things?

After the EEC incident, I vowed never again to trust Logos for similar projects since they seemingly had the freedom to adjust commitments as they saw fit.

With the more recent developments I am pleased to see that Logos values its previous marketing commitments more than profits. This goes a long way into restoring my confidence in Logos’ and opens the door for me to future purchases of the same kind.

 

Posts 10744
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 11:34 AM

NB.Mick:
Speculation: Perhaps Logos 

The post immediately after yours reveals the reason Logos withdrew the individual volume sale.

Edwin Bowden:
The problem was that the marketing had made it clear that it was only going to be sold as a set.

As a very early subscriber to the entire set, I believe Logos—and the community—would be better served by offering individual volumes. No matter which way they go, someone will whine.

Alain Maashe:
However, I do not think that a publisher’s "freedom to revise a strategy" extends to going back on previous marketing statements

That is why they have locked themselves into withdrawing the individual volumes. Like you, I applaud Logos for putting principle above profit in this matter. But I still would like to see them offer individual volumes. Unfortunately, we cannot have it both ways.

Posts 10882
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 12:22 PM

Jack Caviness:

NB.Mick:
Speculation: Perhaps Logos 

The post immediately after yours reveals the reason Logos withdrew the individual volume sale.

No, I don't think so. Only Logos can do this, but typically they don't disclose this type of information. Phil choose to tell us that they re-evaluated their decision to offer individual volumes, but not why they choose to overthrow it. 

Jack Caviness:
I believe Logos—and the community—would be better served by offering individual volumes.
Perhaps. I'm not even sure. Logos and the community are best served when they accomplish this project and really create a top-tier commentary set, which includes following through with the schedule and producing top qualitity. This requires - among other things - financial resources. We don't know if the all-or-nothing subscription provides more of these than individual volumes. However, I'd be better if we had seen a marketing picture with Bob and Dan shaking the hands of the 1'000th subscriber.

Jack Caviness:
I applaud Logos for putting principle above profit in this matter. But I still would like to see them offer individual volumes. Unfortunately, we cannot have it both ways
I still believe this set needs more content on the road to place it visibly into the marketplace. If they don't sell the available volumes, they should think about one book making the showcase for it. 

 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 101
jtondee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 13 2012 12:22 PM
I m extremely disappointed in this decision. I understand why some were upset, regarding the marketing, but for those who couldn't afford to preorder the complete set, the sale of these individual commentaries was much welcomed. One of my major disappointments concerning logos is the lack of availability of individual volumes of commentaries. This problem, keeps me attached, to lesser bible study programs who offer the availability to buy the volumes that I need. I know buying sets is cheaper per book in the long run, but some of us that are starting out in the ministry with small churches cannot afford 1000 dollar sets of commentaries, even with payment plans. (I would love with all my heart to jump in on the back to school sale on the NICNT/OT, but I cannot justify making my family sacrifice so greatly for me to have a new set, so I've been content to purchase the volumes I need when I need in in another Bible software companies platform.) I'm glad for some of you who have had your faith restored in Logos and there principle before profit decision. But some of us , who had no hope of getting in on the pre-sale, will not benefit from what seems to be a fine commentary set. I'm sorry if this vent comes across poorly, I love Logos, I am heavily invested in it, I just await the day when it can be my only Bible software and quit wasting money with other Bible software
Posts 10744
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 2:15 AM

jtondee:
I'm glad for some of you who have had your faith restored in Logos and there principle before profit decision. But some of us , who had no hope of getting in on the pre-sale, will not benefit from what seems to be a fine commentary set.

Even though I applaud Logos for remaining faithful to former marketing hype, I also wish there was some way to release individual volumes. I was one of the early subscribers who were not upset that Logos was offering individual volumes. I still believe it was a wise move.

Posts 10744
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 2:20 AM

NB.Mick:

Jack Caviness:
The post immediately after yours reveals the reason Logos withdrew the individual volume sale.

No, I don't think so. Only Logos can do this, but typically they don't disclose this type of information. Phil choose to tell us that they re-evaluated their decision to offer individual volumes, but not why they choose to overthrow it. 

I think you misread Phil.

Phil Gons:
After several internal discussions and carefully reviewing our prior marketing statements, we decided that we should not make individual EEC volumes available for purchase yet

His post only makes sense if the internal discussion revealed that Logos had indeed previously stated that this commentary would only be available as a set. I also had an email discussion with someone above Phil in the chain of command.

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 5:03 AM

I am one that also committed to ECC from the start. Its a heap of cash for something that I wont see many volumes for years yet.

I commited to it for various reasons, including that it seemed to need the support before Logos was even going to do the project. Otherwise it was going to die, or so it seemed.

I was deeply upset and felt ripped off and lied to when I discovered the single books on sale. So the reversal addresses that concern, as I expect Logos reviewed what had been posted and emailed by them to us customers.

I see value to single volume sales, but the sales pitch and commitments made some big claims and I'm pleased Logos has stood behind what they said and what a fair reading of it would them expect from such a company.

I have begun reading the James volume. So far I'm still exploring the ideas about James rather than Peter being the head of the Christian Church.

Posts 11187
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 6:38 AM

I'd say it's simple 'cash' (in addition to keeping commitments too). Single volume sales completely destroys their business model. There's almost no upfront cash to pay the authors. Indeed it's even worse than the translations they're doing now, since everything's from scratch for the commentary. Also wouldn't be surprised if the single-volume idea was a test that failed (low interest).

Actually this whole thing suggests there's a bigger issue involved. On-going viability.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 2844
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 14 2012 7:25 AM

NB.Mick:

Into Grace:
First they only sold as a complete set. Then they added the option to purchase individual volumes. Now they seemed to have changed their minds yet again.

As per Phil, that's the case. One the one hand, many "early adopters" complained about selling the commentaries individually so early, on the other hand, maybe Logos were looking into the situation after they had opened it. Speculation: Perhaps Logos optimists expected many sales and a certain amount of increase in the subscriptions to the series - those users who saw the value in one and wanted to have all of them. Maybe one or both of this expectations didn't realize. I can imagine the subcription rate dropping to zero, since due to the long-stretched delivery schedule and the small price of the individual volumes, people now thought they can add every single one of the commentaries (or e.g. only the NT ones, or only those for major books) to their libraries when it appears. Maybe it was even worse: subscribers claiming their money back, perhaps making a (pretended) argument about the delivery schedule of a certain volume, while secretly hoping to still get all of EEC they want but without the long-term committment. 

However, I am with those who question the success of a new commentary series which is not proliferated, which is not reviewed, cited in other commentaries and in books about commentaries and isn't on the recommended reading list of the seminaries.

Into Grace:
I want to purchase the James commentary of this set, but they are gone

Too bad. James is the one I have and I happen to think it's excellent. If you are desparate you may try find someone who bought it and now sells it  to you (there'll be a $20 transfer fee from Logos on top), if you really really need it and find no-one you may ask me...

However, I think of one three star reviewer on http://www.logos.com/product/7565/evangelical-exegetical-commentary who wrote "I don't like the idea of buying a whole series without having the chance to dig into at least one. Too bad that Logos chooses to publish it this way... " and got 'likes' for it. In light of Jayson Bradley's very convincing Logos Blog entry http://blog.logos.com/2011/02/how_to_check_out_a_collectionrisk-free/ I would urge Logos to open up the sale of at least one of the existing EEC volumes to allow people to test-drive and multipliers to review. This one volume should IMO be James: a relevant book, interesting because of the perceived discrepancies to Pauline letters, a commentary with some interesting theories, such as James was the first NT book written. It even has its page on BestCommentaries and collected some points to make it #19. Maybe let someone even make it into a Kindle format book and put it on Amazon. It's not so much about getting excellent reviews (which should happen nevertheless) but about getting the word out.

My 2c

Mick

Yes  Well said.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Page 2 of 2 (33 items) < Previous 1 2 | RSS