Upgrading

I just checked out my personalized upgrade page and I can honestly say, I'm not too happy. $400 to upgrade to Gold which I already own! I'd love to have the new features of L5 but not at that cost and to be honest the books I'd get don't justify the price for me personally. Is it possible to get just an engine upgrade with the new features? Smile

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Rustamania

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413822#Comment_413822

It does seem to be a communication issue. I work for a technology company and have been reading the forums for about an hour. I am just now understanding why the upgrade costs so much extra (extra resources), what the "free engine" means, and what a "cross grade" could entail. I am wondering what the average guy who doesn't care as much as I do about technology and doesn't take the time to read through the forums is thinking. It takes way to long to figure out what all of this means, when it could easily be explained in a simple format. It is similar to how difficult it was for me to understand faithlife vs faithlife bible and how all of that fit together.

Gary Butner, Th.D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413829#Comment_413829

I am with you. This is a huge let down by the company.

Unfortunately I get the increasingly impression that the attitude exhibited on the forums, if not by Logos itself, is along the lines of 'tough, if you don't like it, don't buy it, no-one's holding a gun to your head, stop grouching and be grateful'. I hope that impression is mistaken, but certainly many of the company's defenders on here seem to approve of it.

I think what most of the complainers are missing is that Silver 4 is NOT Silver 5, Gold 4 is NOT Gold 5, Platinum 4 is NOT Platinum 5, and Portfolio 4 is NOT Portfolio 5. Logos is offering both upgrades and downgrades between all packages.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413811#Comment_413811

If I recall correctly Logo 4 was introduced the same way, with the new tools only available with upgrades. The only marketing mistake Logos made in my opinion was in using the same package names on most of the packages. How many would be complaining if they had been offered upgrades from Gold to Senator, Platinum to Majestic, etc?

I agree, hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure a naming shift would have created new questions, but it would have eliminated (in my opinion) much of the criticism about losing resources or repurchasing resources.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413858#Comment_413858

I think what most of the complainers are missing is that Silver 4 is NOT Silver 5, Gold 4 is NOT Gold 5, Platinum 4 is NOT Platinum 5, and Portfolio 4 is NOT Portfolio 5. Logos is offering both upgrades and downgrades between all packages.

Yes. And I still hold that changing the names altogether would have solved this dilema.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and I'm a consumer not a decision maker.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413361#Comment_413361

The minimal cross-grade and free engine upgrade should have been available from the start to allow users who decide they can't afford the package upgrade pricing to not feel left out, cheated or some of the more colourful expressions some users have chosen to display their frustration.

When a new movie comes out, I can only take a family of four to watch it at the theater. (3D movie, as much as $12.95 x 4, plus popcorn and snacks we'll probably buy. Easily $50-60.)

If I wait six months (often less!) I can rent that movie from the DVD kiosk machine for $1, and all four of us can watch it with 25 cents of home-made popcorn.

When you go to the movie theater, are you angry that on opening night there isn't a kiosk with $1 rental versions of the same film right next to the ticket line? Should it "have been available from the start to allow viewers who decide they can't afford the theater experience not feel left out"?

- Is this wrong, or just frustrating?

- If the $1 rental was available the first day, do you think the revenue would be enough to cover the cost of making the movie?

With that said, I get the frustration. I wish that our tools could be cheaper, and we're always working to make things affordable -- that's why we have things at all different price points, offer stuff like Community Pricing, try to reduce prices and move things into bundles over time, etc. (If you look at your "per title" costs on any upgrade, you'll find it's a great deal compared to buying the books separately.)

But I also know that we are delivering some great value, and putting a lot of time and money into what we're offering. The new databases are cool -- I wish we could get them out to everyone right away! -- but I know that we started several of them before Logos 4 shipped, and it's taken multiple people more than three years to create them. I know that some of them will even continue to get more work and be automatically updated/improved through free download. And I know they cost a lot to make!

Nothing pains me like people saying they feel cheated or let down. That's not our intention at all; we really do see what we're doing as a service, and we want to serve well. But it also pains me to see people turning "just another business" into some kind of insult. Business itself isn't evil; by operating as a business rather than a ministry we are held accountable: if we don't deliver value, we don't get paid. We must deliver value for your investment, and we're here because we have, for 21 years. We live that accountability every day. And, at the same time, we're constrained by the "laws of business" -- supply and demand; buy low, sell high; how marketing and sales work, etc. -- just as we're all constrained by the "law of gravity."

We have a different model than other software companies; the fact that we get paid only for content, and not for code, has forced us to keep building and expanding content offerings, and to try and bundle code and content together. We're also constrained by having a "pro" product. While more than a million people use the Logos platform, most of those are free mobile users reading the Bible. Our paying customer base is much, much smaller, and we're more like an exotic high-end engineering software package than we are like a mass-market consumer product. (And if you look at the upgrade price for high-end software -- or even mid-range stuff like Adobe's Creative Suite, I think you'll find we've a great deal!)

Expanding our customer base, though, is what will allow us to lower our costs, and that's why we do things like offer free mobile Bible reading apps and build out Faithlife -- some of those people join our "pro" user base and helps us spread development costs over a wider base.

Again, I'm sorry if anyone feels disappointed or let down. I hope that you'll think about the movie analogy, though, and give us a little time. Our long term goal -- of helping more people do more and better Bible study -- hasn't changed, and we'll keep trying to make the tools for that less expensive. It will just take some time to bring down the cost for each new tool.

-- Bob

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413892#Comment_413892

Again, I'm sorry if anyone feels disappointed or let down. I hope that you'll think about the movie analogy, though, and give us a little time. Our long term goal -- of helping more people do more and better Bible study -- hasn't changed, and we'll keep trying to make the tools for that less expensive. It will just take some time to bring down the cost for each new tool.

I think your biggest problem was so radically changing the packages. I was shocked when I saw my upgrade cost from Portfolio to Portfolio was $821.06. Despite the value of the content, it just does not feel right. In addition, upgrading previous collections and books without making it clear gave the impression that the upgrade calculator was not working correctly. In otherwords, you created a perfect storm!

With that said after examining the packages I probably go with the Platium or wait for a cross-grade. Those costs are more in line with my past expectations. I certainly don't feel reaped off, just confused.

Michael Hite

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413866#Comment_413866

I have read most of this entire thread (including the remarks from Bob) and I have to say I'm disappointed -

1. I am disappointed that some would suggest that Logos is going to receive some condemnation from God for being in the BUSINESS of selling a product.

2. I am disappointed that some keep making the same wrong arguments over and over and over. YOU ARE NOT PAYING AGAIN FOR THE SAME RESOURCES YOU PAID FOR BEFORE! These upgrades offer new resources. Books and tools you don't currently own. You pay for nothing twice. You lose nothing you already own. If the resources offered in the upgrade don't interest you then DON"T BUY! But you are not paying for anything twice. Nothing has been taken away from you - you have been cheated out of nothing.

3. Many sound like the little girl from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory - but I WANT IT NOW! We want cutting edge tools. We want new ways of searching and new databases that allow that searching. We want better integration, more, more, more and the general thought in the thread is - I want it for free or next to nothing and I want it now. No company can continue to innovate and then continue to give the product away for almost nothing - and LOGOS does give it away! Certainly they try to get you to buy more books to do that! That is how they pay to develop a product they make no money from.

4. I agree that I wish the cross grade was available now. I have looked at my upgrade resources and I am not that interested in the resources they have added. I could not care less what they call my package - I don't want to pay the price for the new resources right now. I would love the new datasets and features. I will wait for the cross grade - licking my lips the entire time. But even I understand the game - by putting paid upgrades out first, Logos may get people to evaluate their libraries, realize that they have some holes and PAY to fill those holes by upgrading now. If everyone is offered a no cost or low cost upgrade from the start they may not do that evaluation and may never pay to fill the holes in their library. In that event, Logos has paid tens of thousands of dollars if not hundreds of thousands and cannot recoup their costs. This is not deceptive or misleading, it is business.

5. "A laborer is worthy of his wages" - Luke 10:7.

6. I agree that at times communication from the company could be better. I am not happy that some features never made it into L4 that should have. But if this new tool will benefit you - then support it. If not. Keep using L4 and enjoy the power it brings to your study of God's word and the hundreds of books you already own.

GregW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413913#Comment_413913

I have read most of this entire thread (including the remarks from Bob) and I have to say I'm disappointed -

1. I am disappointed that some would suggest that Logos is going to receive some condemnation from God for being in the BUSINESS of selling a product.

2. I am disappointed that some keep making the same wrong arguments over and over and over. YOU ARE NOT PAYING AGAIN FOR THE SAME RESOURCES YOU PAID FOR BEFORE! These upgrades offer new resources. Books and tools you don't currently own. You pay for nothing twice. You lose nothing you already own. If the resources offered in the upgrade don't interest you then DON"T BUY! But you are not paying for anything twice. Nothing has been taken away from you - you have been cheated out of nothing.

3. Many sound like the little girl from Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory - but I WANT IT NOW! We want cutting edge tools. We want new ways of searching and new databases that allow that searching. We want better integration, more, more, more and the general thought in the thread is - I want it for free or next to nothing and I want it now. No company can continue to innovate and then continue to give the product away for almost nothing - and LOGOS does give it away! Certainly they try to get you to buy more books to do that! That is how they pay to develop a product they make no money from.

4. I agree that I wish the cross grade was available now. I have looked at my upgrade resources and I am not that interested in the resources they have added. I could not care less what they call my package - I don't want to pay the price for the new resources right now. I would love the new datasets and features. I will wait for the cross grade - licking my lips the entire time. But even I understand the game - by putting paid upgrades out first, Logos may get people to evaluate their libraries, realize that they have some holes and PAY to fill those holes by upgrading now. If everyone is offered a no cost or low cost upgrade from the start they may not do that evaluation and may never pay to fill the holes in their library. In that event, Logos has paid tens of thousands of dollars if not hundreds of thousands and cannot recoup their costs. This is not deceptive or misleading, it is business.

5. "A laborer is worthy of his wages" - Luke 10:7.

6. I agree that at times communication from the company could be better. I am not happy that some features never made it into L4 that should have. But if this new tool will benefit you - then support it. If not. Keep using L4 and enjoy the power it brings to your study of God's word and the hundreds of books you already own.

[Y][Y]

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413892#Comment_413892

When a new movie comes out, I can only take a family of four to watch it at the theater. (3D movie, as much as $12.95 x 4, plus popcorn and snacks we'll probably buy. Easily $50-60.)

If I wait six months (often less!) I can rent that movie from the DVD kiosk machine for $1, and all four of us can watch it with 25 cents of home-made popcorn.

When you go to the movie theater, are you angry that on opening night there isn't a kiosk with $1 rental versions of the same film right next to the ticket line? Should it "have been available from the start to allow viewers who decide they can't afford the theater experience not feel left out"?

- Is this wrong, or just frustrating?

- If the $1 rental was available the first day, do you think the revenue would be enough to cover the cost of making the movie?

Bob, I love you. I love Logos. I love when I have to interact with Logos associates. I love the folks on this forum. I'm all-in on the software - I've placed 90+ orders in about 2 years. But (you knew that was coming , this is a horrible analogy.

Setting aside the "experience" of being in the theater, when I rent a DVD for $1, I get the exact same movie that was played on opening night. No one who simply wants to upgrade to the new version of the software is asking to get what everyone who is paying for "opening night" is getting at the "$1" price. I'm willing to pay an appropriate price immediately for the new features. None of the closest analogies I can come up with, Apple with its software+content or Amazon with its software+content, knowingly make someone who is willing to spend money today wait to be able to spend it.

One other comment on this... It would seem to me that it's in Logos' best interests to get the new software in the hands of as many of its loyal customers as possible immediately because of how heavily Logos depends on its user community to document new features and to provide a front line of support. You've basically stated you want to prioritize new customers at this point. We know from experience that new Logos users require a lot of hand-holding. But this business decision prevents numerous long-time users from running the updated software and learning it well enough to contribute to the community.

In another thread you mentioned being open to solutions... It would be a lot more palatable to me if I got to pick exactly which resources I purchased to effect the upgrade, versus having them pre-picked for me as part of one of the packages. Just tell me I need to spend $### on resources and I'm eligible, as an existing Platinum owner, to get L5 with all its new features.

Thank you very much for continuing to jump in on the forums with your perspective. I'm looking forward to getting L5 as soon as it makes sense.

Donnie

Yann Parodi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413913#Comment_413913

Thanks Michael,

I like very much your answer.

Yann

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413912#Comment_413912

I was shocked when I saw my upgrade cost from Portfolio to Portfolio was $821.06.

Hey Keith! Good to see you around. I've been off the grid awhile, I remember you from the early days of L4.

Gosh, I wish my Portfolio upgrade was a low as yours. that tells me you have been buying more than me!! Actually, I kind of expected any upgrade to cost quite a bit--especially at the Portfolio level because I perceive it as the Big Kahuna, so I expect a Big Kahuna price.

upgrading previous collections and books without making it clear gave the impression that the upgrade calculator was not working correctly.

that makes total sense. Perhaps Logos will make this more clear. My assumption was that it was an oversight--you work with something so long (as in the developers and marketers) you forget how the small changes--not explicitly stated--appear huge to the uninitiated. I hope Logos makes these things more explicit, as they have done so in the past.

Mitchell Borrows

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413892#Comment_413892

I dont know of any company that charges for there upgrades. Apple is a great example of this. The iphone 5 came out but the platform of ios6 was available to everyone free of charge. Granted if you had anything older then the iphone 3s the upgrade was not available. I have had logos for less then a year now and have done nothing but rave to everyone about it!! The only sad part for me is that i have had it less then a year and even though wouldn't have to purchase it all over again, would have to fork out cash to at least get the benefits of V5. That is what is sad for me considering that its been less then a year for me. Still love logos and how much it has helped me with sermon prep and teaching prep. Really hope a cross over happens i guess.

Mitchell

Michael Hite

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413942#Comment_413942

I dont know of any company that charges for there upgrades.

Apple may be an exception but MOST companies charge for upgrades. Microsoft Office products are not upgraded free when a new version is released. Apple's upgrade from Lion to Mountain Lion is a paid upgrade. Microsoft's Windows 8 is a paid upgrade. Adobe products (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, etc...) are not upgraded for free. Most major professional software tools charge for upgrades. Most may make some adjustments of you have bought within the last 30 days, but other than that you pay for new versions.

Jason Hauser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413892#Comment_413892

When a new movie comes out, I can only take a family of four to watch it at the theater. (3D movie, as much as $12.95 x 4, plus popcorn and snacks we'll probably buy. Easily $50-60.)

If I wait six months (often less!) I can rent that movie from the DVD kiosk machine for $1, and all four of us can watch it with 25 cents of home-made popcorn.

When you go to the movie theater, are you angry that on opening night there isn't a kiosk with $1 rental versions of the same film right next to the ticket line? Should it "have been available from the start to allow viewers who decide they can't afford the theater experience not feel left out"?

- Is this wrong, or just frustrating?

- If the $1 rental was available the first day, do you think the revenue would be enough to cover the cost of making the movie?

The problem with equating Logos software upgrades to the movie prices at a theater compared to a $1 kiosk is that we are not talking about a general audience with no level of commitment. To make this analogy accurate it would be like someone signing up for a Member Rewards program with a hefty sign up fee through a chain of theaters because they were promised you pay for the movies and we'll never charge you for the amenities of the theater and upgrades in technology (ie popcorn, snacks, use of arcades, 3d glasses, etc) because we have your commitment to buying movies from us. Then the movie theater starts telling members of their rewards program that they now have to pay for 3d glasses if it is the opening month of the movie because they have their own costs to sort through. This analogy breaks down though because in the movie scenario, you could simply do business elsewhere. However, for Logos customers, we have thousands of dollars invested in using our bought books only on their system, which maybe that was my first mistake...

I purchased Logos years ago over Accordance and Bible Works because I wanted the variety of resources and loved the idea of always having free upgrades for what I had purchased. I think that philosophy is a wonderful selling point over the many other options of digital suppliers. The only reason I might buy a book at Logos instead of Amazon (where books are often cheaper) is because I know I have a solid Logos platform which is CONTINUALLY UP TO DATE and will give me more from my books than a simplified kindle app.

However, when you take loyal customers who have invested hundreds and often thousands of dollars in your products and platform who were sold with the promise of free software, you just pay for the resources and then you start to change that promise to, well sometime in the future we will give you new updates for free, people start to feel swindled. Especially when this goes on amongst Christians who have high standards for doing what is right and have the same biblical expectations of a Christian business.

I don't doubt that profit margins aren't as big as you would like, it's a tough economy and tough being in business against other book distributer giants like Amazon, Apple, and even new independent apps on devices that are releasing theological bundles for sale. While I love using logos software, my biggest gripe is that I constantly feel like you guys are trying to get more money from me. As people need books they will get books, don't rearrange bundles, or group bundles with the promised free software and then tell loyal customers that they are making demands for movie kiosk pricing, when in reality they long ago bought into the theater membership plan being promised that they were investing in a system where they wouldn't be charged for the platform or have to wait to view their resources in the new theater/software platform.

Logos is going to lose a whole lot of favor with their currently loyal customers if they continue to not hold up their end of the commitment to the packaged promise they have sold over the years to their many loyal members.

As I look at the upgrades for 5 here is my honest analysis: How bad do I need a timeline, faithlife integration, some extra searching functionality, and a few other features? Do I need it bad enough to justify spending a few hundred dollars, certainly not. And now here I am a loyal customer who has invested well over $1,000 (find another book retailer I have given that much business to) because of the promise of the continually improving system which is FREE, and now I'm told I have to WAIT and am demanding too much.

I have sold multiple seminary friends on Logos because "you pay for the resources and the software which is continually improving is free" and now I am eating my words as my friends are asking me, why does it look like I have to pay for this first big upgrade?

My simple suggested solution: Offer new promotions and book bundles to buy. Just also offer the free upgrade for those who are not currently interested in buying more books and have been loyal to this system because of the promise they would not have to pay for the software. If I knew from the beginning that the promise for free software really meant that I was simply guaranteed "some software that would just run logos but not necessarily new or current" I would not have invested in Logos like I have.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413952#Comment_413952

MOST companies charge for upgrades

In none of your examples do the companies say, "We'll let you buy the upgrade, but not yet. We're only selling the new version to new customers or to existing customers who are willing to buy a bunch of other products from us." I can't speak for everyone here, but I want to pay for an upgrade. I fully acknowledge that the new features and the new databases which those features require are additional value and worth spending my money on. I just don't want to pay for resources as part of the upgrade.

Donnie

Mitchell Borrows

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413952#Comment_413952

I do agree that you have to pay a very very small fee. Mountain lion was $20 for all the features. Microsoft 8 apparently (dont quote me on this) is going to be $50. I would be onboard to pay up to $100 dollars for the upgrade with logos. I just feel really bad for those who would be paying in the $1000's just for some new features.

Jason Hauser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413972#Comment_413972

Except the problem with this is Logos's value in the minds of those that would buy books from them instead of Amazon, Accordance, or anywhere else where digital books are sold, is that they provide a wonderful free platform to run such resources. Bob Pritchett has said from the beginning, pay for the resources, not the software. For them to start adding even small incremental charges for an upgrade alone, 1) goes against their original promise to those who have invested thousands of dollars in this once promised "free" system and 2) makes the whole package less enticing.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413922#Comment_413922

It would be a lot more palatable to me if I got to pick exactly which resources I purchased to effect the upgrade, versus having them pre-picked for me as part of one of the packages. Just tell me I need to spend $### on resources and I'm eligible, as an existing Platinum owner, to get L5 with all its new features.

I'd like this too, except the math doesn't work. Example: A cable TV bundle costs $50 or more per month and comes with 400 channels, most of which I don't care about. They pay $4 /month for ESPN (which I don't watch) and $0.22 /month for History Channel, which I liked. (Or did, when it actually showed history...)

(See http://allthingsd.com/20100308/hate-paying-for-cable-heres-the-reason-why/ if you're curious!)

Why can't I pay $2/month for the 4 channels I watch? Turns out that 40% (!) of their content fees go to sports, and I don't watch any.

Because everybody would pay a different $2-8, and nobody would pay $50, and overall revenue would drop 80-90%, and the whole infrastructure would be unsustainable.

You can buy our books one at a time -- at close to retail prices. The only way we're able to put them in bundles where they're discounted as much as 90% is because we can assure the publisher / rights-holder we'll sell more than 10 times as many copies in a bundle as stand-alone.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414000#Comment_414000

Why can't I pay $2/month for the 4 channels I watch? Turns out that 40% (!) of their content fees go to sports, and I don't watch any.

Because everybody would pay a different $2-8, and nobody would pay $50, and overall revenue would drop 80-90%, and the whole infrastructure would be unsustainable.

I'm well aware of the cable / satellite bundling effect. I still don't get your argument.

The Platinum Upgrade price for me is ~$500. For that I'll get somewhere around 50 new resources. If I spent $500 on one resource, which is obviously trivially easy to do, I'd think Logos' margin would be significantly higher. Is your point that even if this is true, allowing such exceptions cuts into sales volumes at the macro level?

Thanks again for replying,

Donnie

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413942#Comment_413942

I dont know of any company that charges for there upgrades.

Mountain Lion is an upgraded OS from Lion, and you had to pay for it.

Windows 8 is an upgrade from 7, and you have to pay for it.

I could go on and on and on listing new versions. This is very standard. Everyone does this. We're not talking about incremental updates. Logos does offer those for free, just like most other companies. But like other companies, Logos charges for version upgrades. You don't know anyone who does this? I don't know anyone who *doesn't* do this. You mention iOS 6, but that's something of a different beast. Apple isn't trying to sell iOS (so you never pay for iOS to begin with), they are trying to sell iPhones and such. That's one reason new versions offer new features that only work on the new hardware: like the shiny new features of iOS 6 but it won't work on your device? It must be time to upgrade your device!

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413964#Comment_413964

However, when you take loyal customers who have invested hundreds and often thousands of dollars in your products and platform who were sold with the promise of free software, you just pay for the resources and then you start to change that promise to, well sometime in the future we will give you new updates for free, people start to feel swindled.

I don't think we ever promised "free updates on first day forever". (Though we've delivered close to that!) We released Logos 4 three years ago, and have added substantial functionality at no charge for three years. (Not everything added was 'promised' -- much of it was new value.) You can see the free upgrades here:

http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4_Release_Notes

With Logos 5 (as with Logos 4), we're simply delaying release of a free engine update for a while, and offering a non-compulsory, optional bundle of new features and new content. If you don't want any new content, there's no problem and no broken promise. (The promise was you'd never have to pay to upgrade your software to read the books you'd already bought, and that's still true.) We're even updating Logos 4.x -- we shipped a release Monday and will probably ship a few more updates / improvements.

Just also offer the free upgrade for those who are not currently interested in buying more books and have been loyal to this system because of the promise they would not have to pay for the software. If I knew from the beginning that the promise for free software really meant that I was simply guaranteed "some software that would just run logos but not necessarily new or current" I would not have invested in Logos like I have.

I'm sorry you misunderstood the promise, or that we miscommunicated it. It is all too easy to shorthand it to "the software is free, you just pay for books," though it's more specific than that. None-the-less, we have effectively delivered that -- and even that shorthand statement doesn't say "the free software updates will be available on day one."

The fundamental issue is that we've been offering free software updates (and free telephone support) since 1995. We actually do have a surprising number of those 1995 users who are still with us, having upgraded many times over the years.

It costs a lot to keep updating the software, and it costs a lot to answer the phone and provide support on each new release.

Despite that, we have offered the software free for every new release, and even for new hardware platforms (mobile, etc.). Sometimes we just delay that free release -- and the free support that will go with those free upgrades -- until after we've had a chance to sell people who want new content with the new software an "upgrade bundle."

This also helps ensure, during the upgrade cycle, that people who do buy the new content -- and thus keep us funded and in business to support the people who need no new content, and just get free engine upgrades -- can get through on the support lines, reach technical support, etc.

This isn't a broken promise or a breach of faith. It's a short delay for very practical reasons. Can you agree with me that it's not 'unfair' to keep our servers, free phone support, and overall staffing capacity available first for the people who DO buy new content, before using all those shared resources to support free downloads that don't fund ongoing operations?

We will also take this feedback to heart, and be much more careful about how we describe the "free software" engine. We can make a web page for potential customer that explains that free major engine updates (unlike the 50+ free updates to 4.x over three years) will be available only after a short delay, following the launch of reconfigured bundles.

Again, I'm sorry for the confusion and frustration.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414028#Comment_414028

The Platinum Upgrade price for me is ~$500.

I'm sorry for the confusion that comes from re-using some package names. The Platinum Upgrade isn't what you have to get; the new Platinum happens to be a very different collection than the current Platinum, so that's the cost of the different resources. You could upgrade to the new Gold and get all the cool new data sets, the new engine, etc. at a price much lower.

(I don't know the exact number, because it's specific to what you own -- we calculate a custom price for everyone to give credit for what you already invested in.)

You could upgrade to new Silver for even less, I expect, and get all but one of the new databases, as I recall.

I can't answer on the margin question -- it's very complicated, and different for each resource depending on the contract with the publisher, the cost to produce, etc. My point was simply that nobody wants everything in a bundle -- that's why it's a bundle. :-) Because people will spend more on bundles -- even with useless things like ESPN (<smile>) -- than they'd spend purchasing ala carte.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414042#Comment_414042

Again, I'm sorry for the confusion and frustration.

Bob,

In that post, you jump straight from those buying new content to free downloads. I'm confident that many here believe there is a middle ground, the "minimal crossgrade" which requires a purchase to account for the cost of the new features and databases, etc., but which includes no new resources. The belief is that this middle ground will be available after a "short delay".

I just got off the phone with a Logos sales rep. He told me that the sales staff has been told that there will never be a "minimal crossgrade" for L5 and that they have been telling customers that for the last 2 days. If that's true, that obviously does not square with what has been communicated in the forums (rightly or wrongly).

Can you confirm or deny whether there will eventually be a "minimal crossgrade"?

Thanks again,

Donnie

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414054#Comment_414054

Oh my.

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413858#Comment_413858

I think what most of the complainers are missing is that Silver 4 is NOT Silver 5, Gold 4 is NOT Gold 5, Platinum 4 is NOT Platinum 5, and Portfolio 4 is NOT Portfolio 5. Logos is offering both upgrades and downgrades between all packages.

Your post illustrates the kind of polemical tone that is troubling me: referring to fellow Christians as "complainers"; no, they are unhappy customers. Probably in part because they aren't understanding everything as well as they could (or perhaps because things are not communicated as well as they should). I find it a worrying trend if a company (Christian or not) takes this kind of attitude--if there are wide-spread misconceptions, then it's down to the company to communicate better--if they want to improve customer relations, which I'm sure (and hope) every company wants.

Paul Buckhiester

This is sad.[:(]

Michael Hite

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413972#Comment_413972

In none of your examples do the companies say, "We'll let you buy the upgrade, but not yet.

That is true - but people that offer packed software do. I may not use Microsoft Access but it is cheaper to upgrade the entire Office suite than just the products I use regularly.

Jacques

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/413327#Comment_413327

Hi Jacques

I noticed that the data sets are available for purchase apart from bundles.

I don't see this - where did you find this?

Graham

I became concerned about this last night as I saw folks within these forums trying to figure out how far up they have to upgrade their bundles to get ALL of the data sets. I'm glad what was feared doesn't appear to be the whole picture...!

As I went to my own upgrade charts to see What's New for Me, I noticed which data sets were included or omitted various bundles. I thought, wow - I have to spend THAT much to get ALL the data sets? That's what it looks like at first glance.

However, as I scrolled over the indicators of the data sets (as it does with any book or set on the list), I saw more details - including 'Individual prices if purchased separately'. This certainly indicates to me, that if we are missing certain data sets that we'd like to use - we can purchase those data sets one by one! They aren't terribly expensive, like $10-$20 in most cases.

So for those of us that are upgrading from Scholar's to Bronze, or even downgrading to something less expensive, it will not mean that we'll miss out on the desired data sets. Even if we don't upgrade at all, and just use the new Logos 5 engine, we can apparently pick and choose which data sets to buy and make use of!

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414051#Comment_414051

The Platinum Upgrade isn't what you have to get; the new Platinum happens to be a very different collection than the current Platinum, so that's the cost of the different resources. You could upgrade to the new Gold and get all the cool new data sets, the new engine, etc. at a price much lower

But that is probably a reason for a lot of the upset; many of us have been loyal customers and have upgraded ourselves to gold or platinum, and now all of a sudden we aren't gold Logos users anymore, and we have to pay out another large percentage of a thousand bucks. I had assumed (wrongly, as it now turns out), that the packages upgrade with the product, and that my investment would remain current, with minor upgrade costs, not heavy re-investments.

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414073#Comment_414073

now all of a sudden we aren't gold Logos users anymore

No one is a gold user, though some users own some version or another of the gold package. You still own the gold package, just not the same gold package currently offered. It is not new for Logos to rearrange their packages: remove this resource, add that resource, etc. But if you check the Upgrade page at http://www.logos.com/upgrade it will show what package you own - it will (should) still say gold.

Resources cost money, and I imagine whenever a user gets resources, the publishers get a check. Logos cannot automatically upgrade you to all the resources of the latest gold package without paying publishers the royalties they are due for the resources. Either Logos has to take a (massive) hit and quickly sink as a business, or they have to charge users for the resources, recouping their development cost and being able to pay royalties to the publishers.

Kent Hendricks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414068#Comment_414068

Hi Jacques

I noticed that the data sets are available for purchase apart from bundles.

I don't see this - where did you find this?

Graham

I became concerned about this last night as I saw folks within these forums trying to figure out how far up they have to upgrade their bundles to get ALL of the data sets. I'm glad what was feared doesn't appear to be the whole picture...!

As I went to my own upgrade charts to see What's New for Me, I noticed which data sets were included or omitted various bundles. I thought, wow - I have to spend THAT much to get ALL the data sets? That's what it looks like at first glance.

However, as I scrolled over the indicators of the data sets (as it does with any book or set on the list), I saw more details - including 'Individual prices if purchased separately'. This certainly indicates to me, that if we are missing certain data sets that we'd like to use - we can purchase those data sets one by one! They aren't terribly expensive, like $10-$20 in most cases.

So for those of us that are upgrading from Scholar's to Bronze, or even downgrading to something less expensive, it will not mean that we'll miss out on the desired data sets. Even if we don't upgrade at all, and just use the new Logos 5 engine, we can apparently pick and choose which data sets to buy and make use of!

The data sets will not be available individually. The only way to get the data sets is with a Logos 5 base package. We'll get the website corrected as soon as we can. Sorry for the confusion.

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414094#Comment_414094

The data sets will not be available individually. The only way to get the data sets is with a Logos 5 base package. We'll get the website corrected as soon as we can. Sorry for the confusion.

To be specific, that means no minimal crossgrade?

Bruce Roth

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414094#Comment_414094

Ok,

Here is my 2 cents:

It would have been better if Logos made it clear, (maybe on the upgrade page) that this is a special opportunity for you to upgrade from L4 to L5 and get a deal on some new resources that you don't currently have that are now part of the newly defined package. Or you can upgrade to a different package. Also indicate that in the near future you will have the ability to do a cross upgrade (and explain what that is) if you want to wait a few weeks or so and don't want to spend the money on the resources.
Explain in a market sense what the new packages are and what their equivalent was in the past.
Explain that you don't loose anything of your original investment if you don't upgrade
Make sure that folks understand that they need to have Gold in order to have all the new datasets

I understand the desire to not want to wait to get the latest and greatest. It is like Bob's movie analogy or maybe like a book coming out in hardback. I can rush out and get it now or wait till the paperback comes out. (not quite the best analogy as the price does drop, but it does fit the waiting game idea).

I do hope that when the cross upgrade is announced that it is not after the special promotion ends as I think Bob seems to indicate in his post. I would like to be able to make a decision at that point and decide on doing the cross upgrade or upgrade the package based on the cost of the cross upgrade vs the cost of the package upgrade.

Michael Hite

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414099#Comment_414099

To be specific, that means no minimal crossgrade?

I am sorry but it means you cannot buy individual datasets - it does NOT mean they will not be offering a minimal crossgrade in the future. A number of posts from Bob Prichett have stated that a minimal crossgrade will be offered after a period of time.

Wes Saad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414110#Comment_414110

I am sorry but it means you cannot buy individual datasets - it does NOT mean they will not be offering a minimal crossgrade in the future. A number of posts from Bob Prichett have stated that a minimal crossgrade will be offered after a period of time.

That's what I originally understood and have told people, but all Bob has said is the engine will be available, not the datasets, and Kent's word was the datasets will only be available in the base packages. The minimal crossgrade is not a base package. Would appreciate something specific from Logos letting users know what to expect.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414110#Comment_414110

A number of posts from Bob Prichett have stated that a minimal crossgrade will be offered after a period of time.

Can you point to the specific verbiage in such a post? I'm not stating that you're wrong, but his most recent post in this thread only alludes to the "free engine" being available after a "short delay". And as I've mentioned in this thread and another, the Logos sales staff believes that there will never be a minimal crossgrade; and they have been telling customers that for the past 2 days. And references to a crossgrade which were there yesterday have apparently been removed from the www.logos.com/faq page.

I'm trying to find official word from Logos management.

Donnie

Mitchell Borrows

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414054#Comment_414054

Just got off with logos and they said the same thing to me as well.

Jason Saling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414110#Comment_414110

Seems like vanity to me, for those that don't want many new resources, but want the new features, but are almost crying over losing a "status" from Platinum, to Gold, or oh my, even lower, Silver. Do you really *feel* more superior or of a higher class just because your package has a specific name? Is it because it feels better to boast to others? Sounds carnal to me. I have Logos 4 Platinum, but if I decide to buy the Logos 5 Silver, it is not hurting my *status.* I'll still have all the resources from Logos 4 Platinum even if I no longer have the *name.* Besides, it's likely that no one else you're around is going to be more excited for you based on what name your package is called. This bantering has just been humorous to me. [:D]

Joshua Coady

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414042#Comment_414042

Despite that, we have offered the software free for every new release, and even for new hardware platforms (mobile, etc.). Sometimes we just delay that free release -- and the free support that will go with those free upgrades -- until after we've had a chance to sell people who want new content with the new software an "upgrade bundle."

This also helps ensure, during the upgrade cycle, that people who do buy the new content -- and thus keep us funded and in business to support the people who need no new content, and just get free engine upgrades -- can get through on the support lines, reach technical support, etc.

This isn't a broken promise or a breach of faith. It's a short delay for very practical reasons. Can you agree with me that it's not 'unfair' to keep our servers, free phone support, and overall staffing capacity available first for the people who DO buy new content, before using all those shared resources to support free downloads that don't fund ongoing operations?

I find this very reasonable. My only problem is that it wasnt communicated and I had to search deep into the 12th page of a forum post to find it. My path started at FB where it was posted that Logos 5 was available. I was a bit surprised to see it, but I dont read every email you send and could have missed a "Logos 5 is coming soon" one. I clicked thru to check it out and see what my upgrade options are.

On the homepage, in the slider I see a big heading for Logos 5 with a learn more button underneath, so I click that button. It just reloads the page. SO I go for the Upgrade button. This gives me my personalized upgrade comparison. My particular L4 package doesnt seem to have an equivalent L5 package, so I find the one that is the least cost to upgrade and use that for comparison. I'm not interested in new resources, but I'm willing to a pay to upgrade the engine and features, so I wanted to see what $100 or so would get me.

This is where it breaks down for me. What features does my current package have that my new one will not and what features does my current one not have that I am getting for that $100? i.e. what is the net gain?

At this point I'm confused as to what I'll be gaining/losing (I know I wont lose any books). I mainly want to pay for an upgrade to the L5 feature set. If that is not available at this time, but coming later, why not provide that information so I can make an informed decision?

Currently, the only info readily available is that to upgrade to L5 requires a resource purchase. I can empathize with those who dont find out that there will be another option later until they have already purchase additional resources they didnt really want/need because they thought that was the only option only to find out in a month or two or whatever that there is another option and they had spent more money than they needed to. I'm glad I saved myself from that heartache by finding this thread, but I feel for those who dont and would understand if they felt it was a bit "shady" of logos not to have provided that info upfront.

Mitchell Borrows

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414127#Comment_414127

I like how you mentioned both your statuses.....Just sayin

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414133#Comment_414133

This is where it breaks down for me. What features does my current package have that my new one will not and what features does my current one not have that I am getting for that $100? i.e. what is the net gain?

Joshua, I missed what package you have. does it come earlier in this thread? would you mind repeating it? and what is the package you are "getting for 100"? The short answer is that Gold gives you full features, Silver, all but one, the "Bible Sense" database. If you go to http://www.logos.com/comparison and scroll down to "feature comparison", you will be able to see what you can get, or not. Even Bronze gets you some new things. check it out if you can, I'd be glad to hear your feedback.

Randy Murphy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414138#Comment_414138

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414169#Comment_414169

I think that expresses how I'm beginning to feel...

Joshua Coady

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414165#Comment_414165

I'm not that far up. The upgrade page tells me "You own Bible Study Library (JG)". My option that isnt hundreds of dollars is the starter package for $67. It is described as "bare-bones" which concerns me which is why I went looking for a feature comparison, but there is nothing there in the features section (or even in any of the other resources sections) that states what I already have. I dont know the name of every feature I use.

Does L5 (any level) have the same feature set as L4 (any level) and L5 is just a superset of L4? With the understanding that some features require data to work and that data is not provided at every feature level. If I have the L4 data will I be able to use the feature that data goes with in L5?

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414169#Comment_414169

love it, Randy!

Rick King

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414073#Comment_414073

I am also an Accordance user. They just did a huge upgrade to version 10. All the packaging changed. You could remain in limbo land, so to speak, with all of your old resources still working just fine, for a charge of about 50 dollars for the new program. You could buy your way into the setup, which I did by purchasing into one of the new packages. I wish they would have done it that way at Logos. Give the bundles NEW NAMES and offer the engine upgrade for a fair and reasonable price. If that means 100 dollars to be fair to them, that would be fine with me. Somebody mentioned somewhere back there that they were ashamed to be part of the Logos community because we are all a bunch of sniveling whiners that are so ungrateful. I just want to take the time to say a big THANK YOU to Logos for all their hard work. It IS appreciated, however, I do think this upgrade could have been presented in a better way. I just got off the phone with Logos and to get the full functionality in Logos, you have to be at least Gold. They have pricing structured to give you larger discounts to get you at or above the same level you are now in the old system. Your mileage may vary, but you will probably find that you will get your best deal to remain at your current position. If you are Gold, Gold will be your best pricing point, etc. With tax, I am looking at 750 dollars. I will be adding a whole lot of cool new resources as well as the engine but I wasn't quite prepared for such a high cost. At this point, there is no way to just purchase the new engine and the data sets. There may never be such an option as it will make upgrading far more difficult in the future. I suppose they could categorize you as a hybrid 4 user with a 4 package and base the pricing of all future upgrades on that. That is a lot more headaches for accounting, marketing and the web site designers. It would be far easier for them to just get everyone into the new system at one of the new levels that is going to be using 5. I think that many people will continue to use the 4 system for some time to come as having a full featured older system is better than having a new system that is missing features. The calculations you see on the website are correct. They have used some advance pricing algorithm gizmo that only makes sense to the programmer locked in the broom closet in the basement and it is correctly applying discounts. Things like the New American Commentary have had volumes added and others have been revised in some way.
What you see is what you pay if you wish to step up. If you want all the features, you have to pay for Gold. They might give out the engine for free download later but it will not have all the features. Data sets, at least currently, only have a price on them so as to reflect their value contribution to a bundle. So, if you don't want to pay for Gold or higher and you are happy with 4, carry on. Your resources are yours and will continue to work as they have been.

David Dewberry

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414123#Comment_414123

Just got off with logos and they said the same thing to me as well.

For what it's worth, I just got off the phone with sales and I was told that a cross-grade would be available that includes the datasets.

Mitchell Borrows

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414225#Comment_414225

weird. I guess theres some confusion from customers and from staff.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414199#Comment_414199

I'm not that far up. The upgrade page tells me "You own Bible Study Library (JG)". My option that isnt hundreds of dollars is the starter package for $67. It is described as "bare-bones" which concerns me which is why I went looking for a feature comparison, but there is nothing there in the features section (or even in any of the other resources sections) that states what I already have. I dont know the name of every feature I use.

check this out, and see if it helps. it is something you can see as well, i think. I misspoke, too. I meant "look at datasets". feature distribution is also relevant, but not what I was talking about. I don't think you will lose any "feature" you have in L4 going to L5, you just may not gain them all (new databases, eg), depending on your basepackage.

the stuff in L5 that is new--see "datasets"--that you may want, but will need to upgrade, are specially designed data that help you do, for example, more powerful searches using "fuzzy logic" in a sense. Instead of just searching for "love" or "love NEAR Jesus", you can search for items that refer, for example, to God, but don't mention Him by name. This is all pretty new to me, so my explanation may be a little simple and off, but I hope it gives you an idea. Take a little time on the Logos website to watch their training videos or read about features and that should help you--and if you have questions after viewing those, check back on the forums, or this thread.

Kent Hendricks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414099#Comment_414099

The data sets will not be available individually. The only way to get the data sets is with a Logos 5 base package. We'll get the website corrected as soon as we can. Sorry for the confusion.

To be specific, that means no minimal crossgrade?

Chris, for now, there is no minimal crossgrade. We will likely make a minimal crossgrade option available in the future.

(My post was meant to simply clarify that there will not be a way to buy one data set individually, like the comparison chart incorrectly stated.)