Upgrading
Comments
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James Macleod said:
I think everyone needs to settle down and stop using emotionally charged language. Logos isn’t extorting us or throwing us under the bus. They are trying to get an upgrade out the door and want to make a bit of money for their labours. They have families to feed just like the rest of us and they are doing an excellent job on their product. I’m sure they are all putting in long hours tonight.
Logos will provide a cross grade option. They always have and they will again. No one will die tonight if they don’t get the upgrade. Take a deep breath and enjoy the ride.
Logos charges more than any other by far.
They could certainly be more reasonable and make plenty of profit for their good work and families. They actually encourage 'offer' everyone to use credit if you can't afford their pricing!
It's all good to enjoy a good upgrade, but there is no way around it: they really stick the bill to ya, and Bob is not moved by our years of complaint. He continues to explain and justify the costs and yet every single person I know who uses their software, including Logos employees off record, agree that they simply charge too much.
Now that Logos 5 has arrived, I'm ready to pay to become a beta tester once again!
I'd gladly move to Olive Tree or Accordance, but I can't escape the great public domain resources all in one place. I haven't a choice but to pay these prices, as these other guys don't have the library. They are all faster too! It's certainly a love hate relationship with these guys..
I'm obviously not alone in these thoughts. It's my hope that Bob will read some of these threads and prayerfully consider changing all the pricing curves, especially on public domain resources.
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Bob Pritchett said:Jacques said:
He feels they should be ashamed for this kind of profit-margin, it's not reasonable.
What would a reasonable profit margin be? What profit margin does your friend think Logos has?
For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.
Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.
But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.
So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)
I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)
I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.
(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)
-- Bob
Bob, all of that aside could someone form Logos please address our actual concerns. i for one never meant my questions, anger or frustration personally. nevertheless I think I have a right to feel that way given the lack of information.
Grace and peace.
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Jacques said:
It's my hope that Bob will read some of these threads and prayerfully consider changing all the pricing curves
He has already responded to you! 413124.aspx
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Dan DeVilder said:
kind of a Spinal Tap approach: "ours go to eleven!"
Doesn't everyone's amp go to eleven? [;)] Gimme Portfolio 4/5 and then some! And crank the amp to 11.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Bob, I really appreciate your willingness to respond.
I'm your customer, no doubt. I'm still hoping for better pricing on old out of print materials, in the meantime I still stand with you and am glad Logos exists!
By the way, I'll show my friend your response.0 -
Well, I did a quick perusal of the upgrade on platinum package I own based only on the books not already in my library. 446 volumes @ upgrade price of $637.36. Works out to $1.43 per volume. And that doesn't include the various maps, photo, illustrations, etc. sets nor the data sets nor 111 issues of a theological journal. Count each of those as a "volume" so works out to 574 volumes or $1.11 per title.
[:D] Hmm, $1.11 per title. Sounds like price gouging to me. [H]
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Reasons I've changed my mind on waiting for the crossgrade, going ahead with an upgrade:
- I appreciate Bob's response, more or less addresses some of my annoyances.
- I really want Henry Alford's Greek New Testament and this provides a good excuse and opportunity. Get it, along with lots of other stuff, much of which I don't care for but some of which I do (and the things I do add up to well over the upgrade cost).
- So, here's hoping the Logos rep I just emailed gets to work early so this Central Time fellow doesn't have to wait for you left coast people to start your normal business hours to process my Platinum upgrade.
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Also a bit confused.. I remember paying $440 for L3 scholars, then $820 or so for L4 Platinum, and another $2670 for other "stuff" I still have L4 platinum since Porfolio seemed too much of a reach.
To get L5 plat, they want $595??? I guess I'm at a loss, what do I get for $595? I'd pay $100, maybe $200, but $600?? Not sure..
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Travis, welcome.
On the Logos Upgrade page there is a filter "New to You" that will list all the new volumes you will receive through the upgrade. Note that is will identify a multi-volume resource you own part of as part of your upgrade. It only counts the books you don't have toward the cost.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Travis Walter said:
I guess I'm at a loss, what do I get for $595? I'd pay $100, maybe $200, but $600?? Not sure..
Travis the upgrade page has a "new to you" feature that will show you what is new in the Platinum package. At that point you can consider the importance of those resources, or perhaps pick out just the ones you want and obtain them separately. But the upgrade page will answer your questions.
Mind you, it's not just the books that are included in the L5 upgrade. There are new databases with tons of information as well that were built for L5.
And a few points to remember:
1. You will always own the books you own right now.
2. If you own a package like GOLD JG, you will ALWAYS own that package unless you upgrade to something else.
3. Even if you "downgrade" to the Starter Library, you will STILL and ALWAYS own all the books you own right now.
4. Scholars Gold JG is Just plain different than Gold L5. Lots of different books and let's not forget the new databases. Perhaps it was a negative idea to re-use names. But what's in a name?
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
When you look at your custom upgrade page click on the "new to you" & note the symbol. You will only see what's new (i.e. what's not already in your library). See my post a couple of posts above yours for my cost per title.
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Yeah I see the new stuff, it just appears my $2670 in other purchases, most of them are not in the new packages, so I'm not getting as much credit. Is $600 for L5 platinum about normal or is it all over the place based on what you own??
It does seem after reading this threads, facebook threads etc there is a lot of people not too happy with paying this much for an upgrade.
And thanks for the welcome, been using Logos for 4 years, forum lurker, finally posted.
I am getting about 110ish new resources, if I counted correctly for $600.. Thats $5.45 each..
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james e snow said:
Well, I did a quick perusal of the upgrade on platinum package I own based only on the books not already in my library. 446 volumes @ upgrade price of $637.36. Works out to $1.43 per volume. And that doesn't include the various maps, photo, illustrations, etc. sets nor the data sets nor 111 issues of a theological journal. Count each of those as a "volume" so works out to 574 volumes or $1.11 per title.
Hmm, $1.11 per title. Sounds like price gouging to me. 
Ha! Agreed!
I'm more than happy to pay this and support Logos business. Just blessed to have people who are willing to make a fantastic software, one that I use everyday.
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As a South African with a conversion of R8.60 to $1 the upgrade costs are prohibitively expensive. Was really looking forward to this upgrade. Will have to wait for the featureless minimal cross-grade option.
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
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Travis Walter said:
Is $600 for L5 platinum about normal or is it all over the place based on what you own??
That's in line with the price I was quoted ($581.76). The price is good for what it gives you - lots of resources plus the databases which would otherwise cost a lot more. The question is whether the resources are worth the cost or whether it would be better to wait until Logos offers the minimum crossgrade.
Look at what the upgrade gives you that you don't already have, determine what of those resources you actually want, how much the upgrade would save you, and decide from there if the price is worth it at this time.
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Travis Walter said:
Is $600 for L5 platinum about normal or is it all over the place based on what you own??
That would be high for me. I will get 231 resources for about $1.25 each. I suppose the difference might be which resources but it seems high. (I counted every volume in a multivolume work as a separate resource to come up with 231. Did you do the same?)
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Looks like a deal to me. :-)Travis Walter said:I am getting about 110ish new resources, if I counted correctly for $600.. Thats $5.45 each..
Now that we know you're here, we expect you to keep posting. We're mean like that. [;)]Travis Walter said:And thanks for the welcome, been using Logos for 4 years, forum lurker, finally posted.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
james e snow said:
446 volumes @ upgrade price of $637.36. Works out to $1.43 per volume.
Only if you truly want all those 446 volumes. If what you really want is 6 out of those 446 volumes, you get some really expensive volumes, and you lose out on the far more interesting volumes you could have bought for that money.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
If what you really want is 6 out of those 446 volumes, you get some really expensive volumes, and you lose out on the far more interesting volumes you could have bought for that money.
Yep. You can only spend that dollar once. No need for cheap books you don't want.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Travis Walter said:
Is $600 for L5 platinum about normal or is it all over the place based on what you own??
Welcome [:D]
My customized Logos 5 Platinum upgrade price is a bit lower, but my order history has more resources that are now included in the new packages.
Noticed Logos 5 Portfolio upgrade includes a number of items in my resource wish list.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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One more thing I'll throw into this conversation...
Bob mentioned something about "subscriptions" (hypothetically speaking of course). I personally like the idea. If I could get all access or even fractional access to many of the books in the Logos Store at a subscription level that was affordable enough (Even about $20 or slightly more/month would be worth it to me), I'd personally go for it.
They're doing it with Proclaim. No more spending $400-800+ every so often upgrading church presentation software. Small monthly/yearly fees, and Logos is always upgrading Proclaim and making it better.
Maybe it's time to "rethink Bible software". Instead of paying steep upgrade fees every so many years, we could subscribe to a service and have access to our resources everywhere, tight integration with Faithlife, continually updated software and databases (like the L5 databases and the FSB), etc.
Isn't it time we think about "Bible Software for the Post-PC era"?
It would take some heavy convincing and miracles with the publishers to pull it off, but there could be a way to make it work...
It's crazy because Logos 5 just shipped, but I'd love to sit down with Bob right now if I had the chance and tell him some plans and suggestions for "Logos 6". :-)
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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I understand and hear what you are saying. I feel the same. I looked at my total spent and it is close to 4000. I have a lot invested in Accordance as well as this. I looked at all the options to get to the new 5. Currently, there is no option to just download the software. I got myself to the Platinum level and pretty much have more than I can use now. There are always goodies you can't say no to on sale but overall, I have way more stuff than I will ever be able to read. I have thousands of dead tree books in my house (yes, thousands) that reading all of them will be impossible too.
I recall a conversation I had when I first got started with Logos a while back. I had a simple Libronix package I picked up from CBD for a song. The crossgrade was available for a cheap deal and I went with it. I remember that conversation well. I was pretty much told with great disdain that I had a very tiny amount of resources so indexing wouldn't take long.... or something to that effect. So, I am thinking to myself... I'm sitting at Platinum so when I call in, I'm somebody. If I go with their "upgrade" and just get the starter package for 48 bucks, now when I call in... I am nobody again. Now I am just the cheap slob with the Starter package... don't waste any time on this one.
Sure you have all of your resources, that doesn't change. From what I am gathering, there are some new features here that won't work with the old resources? I would imagine they would work the same as they do now. This is all very confusing and upsetting and frustrating. I find out about this upgrade at 10, an hour after they closed their extended hours. So, there is nobody to call tonight, obviously.
I guess I will poke about and see what I can find out on my own. If I choose to just sell everything I have and get out, where do I go about doing that? I'm not quite there yet but I am certainly going to consider it as an option. Also, I am wondering if it is even possible to sell what I have as a Platinum 4 package or will I be forced to pay to ransom my way out? If someone bought all my resources, they would be rather orphaned out if they couldn't download the actual software to access them.0 -
I have had a helpful reply from Bob. As I told him, I don't expect to cross grade for nothing. I am more than happy to pay for new features. Just not for features I don't need. I can't even downgrade from l4 Gold to L5 Silver, it doesn't give me the data sets I would like!
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h From what I gather, what you have is always yours no matter what. Even when you upgrade the resources from your previous base package are still yours
.Also they do have a transfer of ownership option I think its 20$. But we aren't supposed to talk about selling logos on the logos forums.
You can download the 5 engine already, but that doesn't include the new databases (still has the old ones though). there is a link to it on the forum - but there again, I don't think they want people downloading and installing it just yet (though many have).
You'll be the cheap slob that spent 4000$ with them still, even if you've only got the 50$ package. I don't think all of the databases come with the 50$ package though, for that you need gold, which is something like 400$ for me. No idea what that would cost for someone with a much more extensive library.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Mark Stevens said:
Yes I did but why should I have to downgrade to get a cross grade
It's not a down grade - you lose absolutely nothing. It is a renaming - two or three old base packages didn't even get their names continued forward.[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rick King said:
If I go with their "upgrade" and just get the starter package for 48 bucks
Why would you want to do that? Wait for the crossgrade or the free engine intead. See http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58017/413273.aspx#413273.
Rick King said:From what I am gathering, there are some new features here that won't work with the old resources? I would imagine they would work the same as they do now.
"New features" means they don't exist in L4.
Rick King said:If someone bought all my resources, they would be rather orphaned out if they couldn't download the actual software to access them.
The L4 engine is still available. As is L3. And L5 will be.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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I had the scholars Library in L4, that is one of the libraries which were not continued. I think they want students to go with gold or silver now...
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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James Brown said:
It seems this companies true heart of commerce is showing.
You don't need to upgrade to Logos 5 Portfolio. What is your cost for the minimal package that contains the new datasets?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rick King said:
From what I am gathering, there are some new features here that won't work with the old resources?
Logos 5 has a number of new features that need new content for effective use: e.g. Bible Sense Lexicon and root words. Noticed Silver 5 and above includes Reported Speech Visual Filter that shows who is speaking.
Logos has a customized upgrade page => http://www.logos.com/upgrade that has a list of Data Sets and Feature Distribution along with showing which Logos 5 base packages include new content. Also have option to "down-grade" package while keeping resource licenses from previous purchases.
Noticed Logos 5 Gold includes all the new Logos 5 content, while Silver 5 lacks one: Bible Sense Lexicon. For features, Platinum 5 has them all while Gold 5 lacks one for Bible Word Study: Septuagint Translation. Silver 5 lacks Bible Word Study for Senses feature (since not have new Bible Sense Lexicon)
Rick King said:If I choose to just sell everything I have and get out, where do I go about doing that?
Logos charges $ 20 to transfer resource license(s) to a different user. Logos forum guidelines preclude using Logos forums to seek a buyer.
Rick King said:Currently, there is no option to just download the software.
Bob Pritchett (CEO) posted => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58003/413101.aspx#413101
A free upgrade for Logos 5 software is planned, but not know when.
Likewise a minimal crossgrade option should be available soon.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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MJ. Smith said:Mark Stevens said:
Yes I did but why should I have to downgrade to get a cross grade
It's not a down grade - you lose absolutely nothing. It is a renaming - two or three old base packages didn't even get their names continued forward.
tomato/tomartoe - [:P]
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I guess I am just not understanding all of the new features yet. I found the old one to be hopelessly complicated and probably only use a small portion of that it is capable of. I have not yet attained the ability of understanding how to read Greek or Hebrew but i am trying to learn what I can. Graphical interfaces have always confused me. Pictograms just don't work for me.... those things they use on appliances for power on and off ... I always got them backwards in my head... LOL You can only imagine what problems THAT has caused over the years... :-) Essentially to get to Gold is 566 and Platinum is 686. Diamond is what they recommend for me. But, of course. That is 1600. I almost poured a full Mt. Dew in my lap when I read that one. If there are new features I am only going to get with a full and proper upgrade then I am guess they have me over a barrel. I feel like a steer they just brought into the slaughter house and hit in the head with a sledge hammer. I don't quite understand what it is that I am going to miss if I just wait for the free engine upgrade. I try to understand but in the end, I just end up writing a check and hoping for the best. At this point, I am trying to figure out whether to do nothing and hope for the best, bail out or quit whining and write the check for 6 or 7 hundred and go back to my corner. :-)
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I want to add my concerns. Of course Logos needs to be able to find the funds to develop, but the cheapest way of upgrading for me is the starter package at GBP 102. This gives me the Logos 5 engine plus several new resources I do not want. OK, the crossgrade may come - but there seems uncertainlty. I don't mind paying a reasonable amount for the crossgrade, but I do object to having to pay this level of price for stuff I don't want and will never use. I have been with Logos since v 2 and have built up the collection I want. Let us have the Logos 5 engine alone at a reasonable price.
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John Grayston said:
I want to add my concerns. Of course Logos needs to be able to find the funds to develop, but the cheapest way of upgrading for me is the starter package at GBP 102. This gives me the Logos 5 engine plus several new resources I do not want. OK, the crossgrade may come - but there seems uncertainlty. I don't mind paying a reasonable amount for the crossgrade, but I do object to having to pay this level of price for stuff I don't want and will never use. I have been with Logos since v 2 and have built up the collection I want. Let us have the Logos 5 engine alone at a reasonable price.
There is not uncertainty...the crossgrade will come after the launch period is over. I'm not sure it is in this thread, but the info came from Phil Gons and Bob has also stated that a crossgrade option will be released.
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Rick King said:
I guess I am just not understanding all of the new features yet.
Then wait until we get a bit more of the features on the wiki so that you can see whether or not they are really of use to you. My rundown:
- it's a small thing but I like having the outlines found and in their own section rather than my searching my commentaries and handbooks for them
- If you life the topics sections of your Guides but find that the auto-generated entries are big clutter, the curated theme elements would be of use
- If you used L3's topic search alot, you'll like the new Topic Guide
- if you want to find specific items like when Jesus spoke to Peter or when Peter healed someone ... you'll like the new clausal search. It's not perfect but it really increases what one can easily look for
- Bible events and tags showing who is speaking really excited some tester ... I personally figure I can do this for myself
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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@ Oddly enough, the cost for both is going to be about the same...
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Why Gold minimum? Silver has most
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Yeah, here's the thing. Spent over 6k since 2009. I wish I had bought a baser package and spent more money directly on resources I want. My bad, I was sold on a higher package - lesson learned. I want the features without having to purchase more books. Do not give Portfolio more features and force people to buy more books they do not want to get the features. If I am wrong here, correct me -
Do I, or do I not have to purchase more books to get all the features Logos 5 offers? (Assuming I am gold right now)
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I did have a look at Silver... 272 dollars. One thing that is bugging me is that the new to you feature on there is WRONG. I HAVE the New American Commentary and another one they say I don't have. I got it in a package along the way, I think it went with the Platinum upgrade. I suppose if there was somebody I could call and ask, that might help but I get the feeling that they are going to probably going to overload me with so much info that my head is going to implode. I'm about there now. So, the new to you is wrong, I am not sure just how wrong but I've found at least two things now that I have they say I don't. Head. Desk. At this point, I am sorry I got into this mess in the first place.
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I have noticed that the new to you is wrong as well. I have found at least 5 items I already own. I will give them time to work out all of the bugs because the upgrade with L4 was wrong as well and when I called them it became cheaper.
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Austin Preik said:
Do I, or do I not have to purchase more books to get all the features Logos 5 offers? (Assuming I am gold right now)
No, you just have to wait until the crossgrade is released and purchase the less expensive minimal crossgrade (just like with L4). I can understand users frustration at having to wait. But if you noticed what happened with the Logos servers today with just the paid upgrades just imagine what would have happened if everyone downloaded.
It also makes sense for them to try to recoup the cost of developing Logos 5. Just to give you an idea of on the of the new features check out the new Clause Search feature video. Logos made it possible to search for things even when the surface text doesn't identify it. For example you can search for Jesus, and the it will show you the result that include pronouns. Or if you search for Jerusalem it will show you when it is referred to as the "holy city" in the temptation narratives. Those are not things that could all be searched for. Logos had to pay people who know biblical languages well enough to go in and manually tag the entire Bible. That takes a lot of time and money.
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I understand that I can keep gold level, but I want to know if Platinum, etc. . . have features included that are not included in gold. I want the full feature set without being forced to buy books. So, Assuming I have Logos 5 Gold, will I be missing features in the higher packages where I would also have to purchase books to get those features?Philana Crouch said:Austin Preik said:Do I, or do I not have to purchase more books to get all the features Logos 5 offers? (Assuming I am gold right now)
No, you just have to wait until the crossgrade is released and purchase the less expensive minimal crossgrade (just like with L4). I can understand users frustration at having to wait. But if you noticed what happened with the Logos servers today with just the paid upgrades just imagine what would have happened if everyone downloaded.
It also makes sense for them to try to recoup the cost of developing Logos 5. Just to give you an idea of on the of the new features check out the new Clause Search feature video. Logos made it possible to search for things even when the surface text doesn't identify it. For example you can search for Jesus, and the it will show you the result that include pronouns. Or if you search for Jerusalem it will show you when it is referred to as the "holy city" in the temptation narratives. Those are not things that could all be searched for. Logos had to pay people who know biblical languages well enough to go in and manually tag the entire Bible. That takes a lot of time and money.
(Edit: Watching videos is too much of a time commitment on slow African internet
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I noticed that the data sets are available for purchase apart from bundles.
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Mark, I have Portfolio Edition 4 and I added a certain number of resources to it. Some of my additional resources were now integrated in L5 Portfolio upgrade. Is the personalized upgrade price excluding these resources or am I going to pay a second time for those resources?
I am also shocked by the upgrade strategy introduced. I bought the Portfolio Edition 4 two months ago.
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Hi Sandro
Sandro Polenta said:Mark, I have Portfolio Edition 4 and I added a certain number of resources to it. Some of my additional resources were now integrated in L5 Portfolio upgrade. Is the personalized upgrade price excluding these resources or am I going to pay a second time for those resources?
Your personalised upgrade price should take into account the additional resources you have purchased - you shouldn't have to pay for them again
Graham
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Hi Jacques
Jacques said:I noticed that the data sets are available for purchase apart from bundles.
I don't see this - where did you find this?
Graham
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Thanks Graham [:)]
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Graham Criddle said:
Hi Jacques
Jacques said:I noticed that the data sets are available for purchase apart from bundles.
I don't see this - where did you find this?
Graham
Graham, If you go to your upgrade page on logos.com and then hover your cursor over the Data Sets (or any other resource) you'll get a pop up window detailing the individual price and a description with picture.
I discovered this by accident myself... I added up the data set prices and it's about $145 for all of them.... I cannot find them for individual purchase though.
Logos 5, Windows & Android perfect together....
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I will have to talk to them about this data sets thing. If that is all you need to make it all work, then 145 bucks isn't so bad a price to pay to make it all good. If I have to buy into the new packaging system, for me the most bang for the buck and the best discount happens where I am now, Platinum. It's 120 dollars more than Gold and Gold is where you get all the data sets. You will have to start where you are for any future updates you might want to do and if you have not bought into the new structure, you will probably have to pay full dollar to get in later. I am seriously going to give up on this for the night. I was thinking of just staying up all night and waiting for them to open in the morning but there is much to do tomorrow past that.
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