Upgrading

Richard DeRuiter said:

David Ogg said:

it's been said by everyone but Logos. Is this an assumption based on the way we upgraded to v4? This has been handled nothing like that time.

It has been said by folks at Logos to us MVP's.

Here's a direct quote from Phil Gons from that communication to the forum MVP's:

Minimal Crossgrade and Free Engine

We do not plan to release the
minimal crossgrade or the free engine until the end of the launch
promotion. The only way to get the Logos 5 engine during the launch
period is to buy or upgrade to a base package.

This is a very poor decision from Logos.  For me personally I've got no issues with what it will cost me if i choose to upgrade path to match my existing base package.  I think the discounted upgrade price is very reasonable if I choose to go down that path, and generally I'm happy with the new resources I would get.  But it's more than I had planned on spending right now, particularly because I had no knowledge of the release until now.  And this is why it is such a poor decision and why I understand some users even see it as manipulative marketing.  

The minimal cross-grade and free engine upgrade should have been available from the start to allow users who decide they can't afford the package upgrade pricing to not feel left out, cheated or some of the more colourful expressions some users have chosen to display their frustration.   It's just another example of how out of touch Logos marketing is with their customer base when they make decisions like this which are clearly going to alienate and upset their customers - if they were in touch they would not make such poor marketing decisions in the first place.

I get the upgrade process, I know I am not paying for anything twice, etc, I've been around Logos a long time, but I will always think first like a customer, I'll never make excuses for what Logos do simply because they are Logos (as good as they are 99.9% of the time),  and I get why people are expressing such strong emotions over the marketing of this upgrade.  It's a real shame all the hard work put in by the developers etc in putting together Logos 5 is being lost in this sea of emotion because of marketing decisions that show a lack of respect for customer base.

I'm really ashamed to be a part of the Logos community right now. I see a lot of complaining and griping and almost no thankfulness. I understand we are all concerned about getting the best bang for our buck. Let's do it! However, let's not allow our feelings to overwhelm the forums. It might be best practice to give someone a call at Logos and vent your frustrations and actually get somewhere, instead of coming onto the forums and stirring up discontentment and strife.

Let's remember we spend an insane amount of money on studying and soaking the Bible. We need to take a step back every-once-in-awhile and think about how amazingly blessed we are to be able to drop that kind of money into Bible study. When you think about it, it's unbelievable. We've got believers all around the world that are scraping by to provide for their families and we are complaining about Bible software. it really makes my stomach turn. God forgive us.

With love,
CL

Hi Mark Smith,

You've mentioned that we can run L5 without adding the new databases for free. Others have been saying that getting L5 will cost (as I understand them). Is a free L5 something we have to wait for? Also, for how long can we run L4 before we can't buy books for it anymore? I'm a student (therefore with money for text books only) and I have another 6 years to go.

Mike Binks said:

David Beth-El said:

You've mentioned that we can run L5 without adding the new databases for free.

Yes but not yet. There will be a delay before the free engine is released.

David Beth-El said:

Others have been saying that getting L5 will cost (as I understand them.

To make L5 really worth the money you need to get in at about the Gold Level. That unlocks a lot of the power of L5 for serious and detailed study. For that there will be some charge.

David Beth-El said:

Also, for how long can we run L4 before we can't buy books for it anymore?

At the moment that is indefinitely (which I guess and this is only a guess actually means when the proportion of L4 users drops to less than 5% and it becomes financially viable for Logos to make them an offer they can't refuse.) Look to a decade of so.

Thank you Mike, and thank you for getting back to me so quickly.

MJ. Smith said:

Mark Stevens said:

Yes I did but why should I have to downgrade to get a cross grade

It's not a down grade - you lose absolutely nothing. It is a renaming - two or three old base packages didn't even get their names continued forward.

This is a very good point, and seems to be a sticky one for many here. It would be just as true and far more clear to call it either renaming or adding a package.

Rick King said:

I did have a look at Silver...  272 dollars.  One thing that is bugging me is that the new to you feature on there is WRONG.  I HAVE the New American Commentary and another one they say I don't have. 

Scott Carson said:

I have noticed that the new to you is wrong as well.  I have found at least 5 items I already own.

Mark Smith said:

Gary Butner said:

"BRAGGING RIGHTS." 

Important to some, I guess. How about substituting size of library which is what the old paper books on a shelf standard was? (Well I have over 1,000 books just on the Holy Spirit!, or some such nonsense like that.)

So if you have 1;000 Holy Spirit books to my 500, then you have more of the Spirit, correct? I suspect that should be spirit, with a small s.  

I was very disappointed to see that I would have to spend $1,500 to upgrade my Platinum package to L5 Platinum. The disappointment comes from not actually wanting the additional books. I already have over 3,000 books in my Logos library. I only add the titles I really want. And I do so pretty often. But if I have to spend $1,500 to upgrade, I cannot purchase the books that I truly want to have. 

My disappointment abates a bit on two points. One, the video about the upgrade tells me that it is not something I truly need anyway. I already do the things it does (the one I care about anyway: topic guide) in ways that L4 already does but does in other ways. Two, perhaps later, I can cheaply upgrade to the functionality without the unwanted volumes. I gather this is called "crossgrade." It would have to be pretty inexpensive though for the little it would offer me. $29 would buy a good book (or two) on pre-pub or community pricing. That is far more valuable to me than what an L5 upgrade or crossgrade appears to offer.  

So, disappointed? Yes. But not as much as I first thought.  

Gary Butner said:

David Housholder said:

The suggestion of a crossgrade eventually being available with no new books but the version 5 tools: That sounds good except that the new tools are not all available unless you go to the highest upgrade. Even a one or two step upgrade now does not include all the new tools. 

I currently have the Platinum 4 package, and 5,446 resources. My upgrade cost is $550, but that also adds several commentary sets, tools, etc. I could step down to the Silver 5 package, and gain the new tools for $132.59. What have I lost by choosing Silver can be summed up in two words, "BRAGGING RIGHTS." 

With respect, it appears that silver offers fewer features than Platinum.  It is not clear, which is part of the problem.

Site says re Silver - "Powerful, precise tools for knowing the Bible. Logos 5 Silver includes everything from Bronze, plus new visual filters and the highly specific Clause Search. You’ll also access the Timeline, Sermon Starter, and a library of more than 690 books—a library worth over $13,000 in print."

So this offers the same features as bronze, plus some, but fewer than gold?  So perhaps it is maybe at least slightly possible that it is more than a concern than bragging rights?   

Mark E. Ryman said:

Now it says my personalized upgrade would be about $600. Still...no. Just wanted to clarify the previously stated price.

Mark if you just want the new features (clause search, sermon starter guide) which require specific datasets (which were not free to create, for the clause search they had the Bible manually tagged to allow search for a person to include for example where they are referred to by a pronoun). Because of the cost they cannot offer those for free. After the product launch period (when the servers are not being taxed by upgrade downloads with massive resources) you can purchase the minimal crossgrade with the new features and datasets. Or just get the free software engine.

Roger,

We're trying to take up the proverbial slack on this. (We being the volunteer MVP's) [:D]

Josh Hunt said:

Mark E. Ryman said:

I was very disappointed to see that I would have to spend $1,500 to upgrade my Platinum package to L5 Platinum. The disappointment comes from not actually wanting the additional books. I already have over 3,000 books in my Logos library. I only add the titles I really want. And I do so pretty often. But if I have to spend $1,500 to upgrade, I cannot purchase the books that I truly want to have. 

 

I agree. one more voice: I want to be able to upgrade the program at some reasonable price. Wordsearch upgrades in recent years have been less than $100

You can crossgrade for a minimal price (last time under $100) you just won't get new books. This will be available after the L5 product launch so the servers will be not be shut down. You don't have to upgrade, just wait, get the crossgrade (like they had available for L4) and then purchase the books you want.

John Murphy said:

BINGO!! This is a HUGE marketing blunder. I find it humorous that it's the forum MVPs who have to explain Logos' poor communication/manipulative marketing. 

If I recall correctly Logo 4 was introduced the same way, with the new tools only available with upgrades. The only marketing mistake Logos made in my opinion was in using the same package names on most of the packages. How many would be complaining if they had been offered upgrades from Gold to Senator, Platinum to Majestic, etc?

Nathaniel Stamper said:

I am with you. This is a huge let down by the company.

Unfortunately I get the increasingly impression that the attitude exhibited on the forums, if not by Logos itself, is along the lines of 'tough, if you don't like it, don't buy it, no-one's holding a gun to your head, stop grouching and be grateful'. I hope that impression is mistaken, but certainly many of the company's defenders on here seem to approve of it.

Bob had mentioned that with at the current prices they are operating at a .38% profit margin (note the decimal point).

They spent a couple of years working on this (apparently about 300 families), AND they are willing to give it away for free (in a couple months, I heard around christmas, but only Logos knows).

How can I complain about that?