LOGOS PLATFORM is being sold as Catholic
Comments
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Josh said:
Now, surely I'm not suggesting that Logos is proselytizing for the Catholic Church (in fact it's obvious that they reject many of the Catholic teachings), but I do think that their desire to capture the Catholic market share has caused them to produce products that has directly encouraged and endorsed the study of erroneous Catholic doctrine. I don't think they should be doing this for any denomination.
Josh, I think you have gotten drawn into this argument in a way you don't really mean. By your logic, the Lutherans should complain that Logos encourages and endorses the study of erroneous Calvinist doctrine. The Calvinist should complain that Logos encourages and endorses the study of erroneous Arminian doctrine. You are aware of the confessional aspect of Lutheran Bible Study? Should Logos not include Lutheran Bible Study.
[sorry I can't find my Lutheran image]
Or consider the Anglican 3-legged stool approach to Bible study. Should Logos not include Anglican Bible Study?
Or consider the Wesleyan quadrilateral approach? Should it be excluded?
There is nothing in Catholic Bible Study that is not also present in one or more of the above. As I keep saying, the issues of canon and method are not specifically "Roman Catholic" ... they represent 80% of Christendom. Verbum appeals to a broad range of Logos users even if Logos markets towards the largest market share i.e. Catholics. I am certain that the Practicum will meet the needs of a broad range of denominations ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dear Luigi: I have shared some interesting things from my own life with you in an effort to help you better understand the things of which you speak.
What I have been trying to help you see is that you do not understand, as yet, the things of which you speak.
Words have meaning.
You make it apparent you do not understand the meanings of many of the terms you are using. You make claims about others that you do not know, you make claims about the study habits of people/groups you know nothing about.
Quite frankly: you just don't know enough about the subject matter to be speaking to it.
You really need to take the time to study these things before commenting on them.
You don't like Logos having Verbum. Ok, noted, thank you for your opinion.
The rest of it is just simple ignorance on your part, that is apparent and, no one blames you for that, you are just saying the things someone has falsely told you.
However, choosing to remain in that state is to be "willingly" wrong, and that you are accountable for.
To say things like : catholics don't study as much, we use Liturgy to avoid study and the many other "jabs" you take, well, it's ludicrous . It shows your lack of education first, it shows your lack of study time second, and, by not taking any advice on the subject matter, shows you have an obstinate streak.
Luigi: Clergy in liturgical churches are often some of the best educated people in the communities in which they live. Most degrees are four year and more. Most have several degree's including: Psychology, Psychiatry , Sociology, Ancient History, Philosophy , Social Services, Counseling, Addiction Therapy, Mathematics , Biology, Microbiology, Medicine, Physics etc., etc., etc. Many have Doctorates in Ancient languages like Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Egyptian etc. Doctorates in Archeology and the list goes on and on.
Many clergy are taught at several different universities spanning the entire globe.
Any Word study you do in Logos is going to include the input from Catholic scholars because Protestant and Catholic Scholars work together on these resources and no Protestant Scholar would ever say: Catholics don't study the Word of God as much.
Why?
They know better, they are informed.
The average lay person sits under the teachings of very educated teachers who desire the laity to be well read, well educated in the gospel and encourages them all to study , read, contemplate the Word of God daily, hourly and for all their life.
Luigi: We read and hear Scripture in every service: Old Testament reading, a Psalm, An Epistle and the Gospel. 80 percent or more of the Liturgy itself is directly from Holy Writ.
Our Daily prayer structure is the same pattern and we do these prayers several times a day.
Again, my suggestion to you is to first educate yourself better, you are worth the effort, give yourself the opportunities to learn more than you have learned, there is much to see, much to learn. You only have so much time Luigi, use it well, read widely, study well, contemplate, meditate on all the things that are there to be studied of God's interaction with His people. Your Bright! Your just stuck in a cage someone else created for you, however, that cage is not locked, it was unlocked by Love a long time ago. Come out of that cage, use the resources you already have and know the incredible freedom you have and study, read, allow yourself to ask questions, see the beauty of "all" that God has been and is doing.
God has a great deal for you to learn Luigi, you just have to be willing.
I pray this helps.
Blessings.
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Dear Josh: Logos has been doing this for years for Protestants, now, they are doing one for catholics.
Thats fair.
Again, as MJ has pointed out, the differences are not just labels and denominations ( I hate that word) , there are a lot of things in play here: different books, some tagging differences, resources etc.
Catholics need training on the software just like everyone else and that training needs to encompass the work we do.
You train everyone on excel, fine.
But the advertising dept. needs to be trained in Publishing software, you don't train them in Excel to accomplish that. I doubt anyone complains that "those Publishing people get their own Label", Microsoft should change that.
Just saying.
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Deleted by poster - having a formatting problemSaw this on the Beta Forum
tom:I am attempting to set the Verbum switch, but it is not working.Tom, I don't remember right now: do you own a Verbum package? Otherwise Logos won't recognize the command.
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Luigi Sam: Quote
Put simply Verbum = "the word" just like Logos does, and Catholics are aiming to separate itself from the other 'Christian denominations' and use "Verbum' as their software platform instead of integrating as ' one Christian denomination' using the Logos platform Label. End Quote
Historically it was not the Catholics that separated themselves from the other Christians. Starting with Martin Luther it was the other Christians that separated themselves from what was then the universal Christian church. They stayed the same. It was the others that changed. But this is a mute point.
MJ. Smith: Quote
Respect for Orthodoxy makes me say probably none since 1054 when two idiots ... okay, my opinion doesn't exactly toe the party line on either side of the schism. End Quote
The party line is wrong! Calling those two pig headed is an insult to pigs. Their pride was only surpassed by that of Lucifer. IMHO of course.
Also thanks for the “educational addendum:”
Josh: Quote discounted bundles of the Catholic variety. It appears that Logos is specially catering to Catholic needs in ways they do not do with other denominations End Quote
What about the discounted bundle labeled Portfolio? Said to be targeted for Evangelicals – why would a Catholic want that set?
Josh: Quote Can you imagine if Logos produced a video series called 'Jehovah Witness Practicum' and provided Jehovah Witnesses with important insights and tips concerning how to use Logos within a Jehovah Witness Scripture study methodology!! End Quote
Most likely will not happen. That group and the Mormons tend to buy inside their own and would not conceder a Logos product in numbers that would pay for the work.
Josh, I was going to say more but Fr. Charles R. Matheny and MJ Smith have said all that is needed
To both Josh and Luigi Sam: you have been answered, in Love, by those two.
Catholics are more than 50% of all that call on the name of Jesus. Logos is a company. A company MUST maximize sales. How many of your fellows have not yet bought Logos? Why? If they are not buying Logos in larger and larger numbers then where can Logos go to find new customers? If it upsets you that Logos had to start selling to the Largest Christian Group then perhaps your group had better set its plans to convert all of those Catholics to your way of thinking and then they will buy the vanilla version of Logos along with many copies of Portfolio. [[When that happens Logos will have no customers for Verbum Capstone]] Why did you not buy Verbum Capstone? (Rhetorical question) Because it offers you nothing that you want. That is what many Catholics say about Portfolio.
Or on the other hand maybe, just maybe, you should upgrade to Verbum Capstone and then compare what is said there to what you have been taught about the Catholic teachings. You have been lied to. All of the enemies of a group lie and twist the teachings that they don’t understand to present them in the worst possible light. [[Don’t worry about being lied to – your church fathers were only repeating what the Catholic church fathers started – twist the words of those others – brand the others as heretics – now we are just doing to the Catholics what they did to the Gnostics and others [I am not saying that the Gnostics were right just that not all that was said against them was true] – what happened to LOVE? Were we not told to love even our enemies?]
I repeat: To both Josh and Luigi Sam: you have been answered, in Love, by those two and others.
[[I could have replied to each in a separate post but am tiring to keep my post could down]
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Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:
Luigi: Clergy in liturgical churches are often some of the best educated people in the communities in which they live. Most degrees are four year and more. Most have several degree's including: Psychology, Psychiatry , Sociology, Ancient History, Philosophy , Social Services, Counseling, Addiction Therapy, Mathematics , Biology, Microbiology, Medicine, Physics etc., etc., etc. Many have Doctorates in Ancient languages like Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Egyptian etc. Doctorates in Archeology and the list goes on and on.
Many clergy are taught at several different universities spanning the entire globe.
Any Word study you do in Logos is going to include the input from Catholic scholars because Protestant and Catholic Scholars work together on these resources and no Protestant Scholar would ever say: Catholics don't study the Word of God as much.
Why?
They know better, they are informed.
The average lay person sits under the teachings of very educated teachers who desire the laity to be well read, well educated in the gospel and encourages them all to study , read, contemplate the Word of God daily, hourly and for all their life.
Luigi: We read and hear Scripture in every service: Old Testament reading, a Psalm, An Epistle and the Gospel. 80 percent or more of the Liturgy itself is directly from Holy Writ.
I can confirm what Fr. Matheny says from a non-Catholic, Anglican perspective. The liturgy revolves around the scriptures. I have heard more scripture in Episcopal services than I ever did when I grew up in a fundamentalist church. When I first came to the Episcopal Church since there was no Christian Reformed Church in the area I was then in [Note: The CRC was not the fundamentalist church I mentioned] in order to have my daughter baptised, I didn't really appreciate the liturgy, but it grows on you as you learn more about it. Take time to learn.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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FYI...The Universal church was split will before Martin Luther came along. The Great Schism happened during the eleventh century.David Ames said:Historically it was not the Catholics that separated themselves from the other Christians. Starting with Martin Luther it was the other Christians that separated themselves from what was then the universal Christian church. They stayed the same. It was the others that changed. But this is a mute point.
And Luther did not remove himself from the Roman Catholic Church - he was trying to reform the church when he was excommunicated from the church.
IMHO, no one can claim the high ground concerning Christian unity.
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David Ames said:
Historically it was not the Catholics that separated themselves from the other Christians. Starting with Martin Luther it was the other Christians that separated themselves from what was then the universal Christian church. They stayed the same. It was the others that changed. But this is a mute point.
We Lutherans will not concede that point. We claim that we were kicked out, largely for a fusion of Augustine's theology of Grace with Cyril of Alexandria's Christology. I could go on to argue the point, but that is off topic. For the official Lutheran position, please see Augsburg Confession, end of Part One and for how much we are willing to compromise, see Apology to the Augsburg Confession 14.
Speaking for myself, I find that in discussions I have to often defend Rome, because they also occupy much of the same ground as I wish to defend, as a Lutheran - in spite of our differences.
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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tom said:David Ames said:
Historically it was not the Catholics that separated themselves from the other Christians. Starting with Martin Luther it was the other Christians that separated themselves from what was then the universal Christian church. They stayed the same. It was the others that changed. But this is a mute point.
FYI...The Universal church was split will before Martin Luther came along. The Great Schism happened during the eleventh century.
And Luther did not remove himself from the Roman Catholic Church - he was trying to reform the church when he was excommunicated from the church.
IMHO, no one can claim the high ground concerning Christian unity.
You, are correct on all counts. I was being too general. True, the R C C removed Luther but those that followed him 'might' be said to have left. and Yes, there is no high ground. WE have all gone astray. And as for that other split I made a comment on it elsewhere.
The problem with this forum is that when we are 'speaking' to one intended person we trip up lots of others. We will teach the person that I meant to reach the rest of history over time after we resolve our current schism [fancy name for split] - then, when they are ready, if ever, we will get into the Great Schism. [[in some ways what happened then is just what is happening now - we / they were / are talking at and not to each other. And we use Jesus as a 'weapon' instead of as a guide and mentor]]
EDIT: Add that Ken McGuire is also correct - I was being too general and forgot that I was talking to thousands instead of just one
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Yes to Ken and Tom on some points, though we have to try hard to not get into theological discussions ( man! thats hard isn't it?) .
I think the thing we all can do though is show support and encouragement to Luigi so that he can expand his studies and:
Support the good decisions Logos has made, which in the end, do help us all. Lets face it, the more software and Libraries Logos seeks, the more resources they can go after for all of us. The better Logos can deal with Publishers and Publishing issues, the more we all benefit. This too leads to being able to get more programmers, more folks on staff to do tagging work etc. More R&D will mean better software at some point.
I'm not the "fan boy" type ( Lord knows some of you have heard my railings on software issues) , but we do need to Appreciate what Logos, Accordance, Bibleworks provide for all of us and, urge them on to do better and better.
We need to understand that competition improves things for all of us, thus a breakthrough at Accordance or Bibleworks is also in our favor here, A breakthrough here, is a benefit there as well.
A Catholic Collection here, put pressure on the other Software makers, opened up publishing and publishers ( thanks Logos, you are appreciated) , more Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran resources are going to open up yet more possibilities everywhere. ( I can't wait -Bonhoeffer anyone?) It's all quite simply a "Win-Win" for everyone.
I have been writing and calling Biblical Software companies for ten years, asking for what Logos "has done" with these resources. Logos is the first one to do it. There have been publisher issues, financial issues and-Fear. ( Just telling it like it is ). Fear of backlash, fear of conversations like these.
Bob Pritchett and Logos deserves our heart felt : "Thank You All" for breaking through all those barriers to get us these titles, tools and moving/expanding the whole industry into wider and deeper areas.
We will soon have, quite literally, "Thousands" of new resources , titles, authors, and, tools to access them properly.
This is very, very exciting and is NOT just for any one group, but for all of us.
Soon, we will have at our disposal , at our fingertips, everything a really good research library has- ( and much of it in english), thats incredible!
I just hope and pray that Luigi and others can see that What Logos has done and, is doing, benefits us all, no matter what your background is.
I have a large physical library and still have some books ( Protestant and Catholic ) that are not available in software, but that situation is changing pretty fast. I have some rare books, out of publishing , but I can see the day coming when those too will be available to everyone again.
I say: Bravo Logos, Bravo indeed!
Thank you Logos, thanks for the risk, thanks for not letting fear control you, thanks for allowing us to choose, thanks for being pioneers and going where others would not or could not. History will tell the whole story, I think Logos will do well there. Logos decision surely improves it's chances of living long into the digital age.
I for one appreciate all the work and risk and, as Steve Jobs would say: "I voted with my wallet".
Blessings all.
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Ken McGuire said:
We Lutherans will not concede that point.
"We" as in you and Tom, then, because this Lutheran is not going to let Luther off the hook that easily, and would prefer not to have opinions ascribed to her.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:Ken McGuire said:
We Lutherans will not concede that point.
"We" as in you and Tom, then, because this Lutheran is not going to let Luther off the hook that easily, and would prefer not to have opinions ascribed to her.
Am i the cause of a Schism in the Lutheran Church? [I hope not] I was wrong, I was too general.
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Luigi Sam said:MJ. Smith said:
Logos has chosen to use "Logos" to refer to the shorter canon / non-liturgical base and "Verbum" to refer to the longer canon / liturgical base. Many of us hope to see "Devar" to refer to a Jewish oriented version.
Hi MJ,I respectfully think you are trying to minimize the issue.
Put simply Verbum = "the word" just like Logos does, and Catholics are aiming to separate itself from the other 'Christian denominations' and use "Verbum' as their software platform instead of integrating as ' one Christian denomination' using the Logos platform Label.
Actually, M.J. couldn't get this issue minimized enough. LOGOS is a business. Like any other business- if you bring enough customers who want a particular setup the business will deliver it. LOGOS is no different. If you read the threads you will have read many posts where someone commented that some (often many) resources were of little or no interest to them. If enough people ask for a new set LOGOS will deliver. Verbum simple delivers this set for a particular group of people who want this particular slant on their resources and is large enough to make it cost-effective . No more, no less.
Bob - 17" MBP quad 2.3GHz 4GB and iMAC
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David Ames said:
Am i the cause of a Schism in the Lutheran Church? [I hope not]
Don't worry. Lutherans don't need any help to create schisms. Just a few days ago I found out I've been excommunicated. By the 3rd largest Lutheran church in the world, the Mekane Yesus Church in Ethiopia. Not that they know who I am, of course. I share the honour with the largest Lutheran church in the world, my own, as well as the fifth largest, the ELCA. Good thing I'm not planning any trip to Ethiopia.
The irony is that the Mekane Yesus church has its roots in Swedish missionary work. We have at least one missionary family there even now. I still haven't heard what's going to happen with them.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Taken from LOGOS' Product Page
Christian Group
- Evangelicals (1662)
- Reformed (385)
- Catholic (339)
- Baptist (133)
- Lutheran (127)
- Pentecostal (116)
- Puritan (115)
- Fundamentalist (89)
- Presbyterian (84)
- Arminian-Wesleyan (69)
- Anabaptist (29)
- Methodist (19)
- Anglican (19)
- Ecumenical Work (16)
- Orthodox (11)
- Episcopalian (8)
- Plymouth Brethren (2)
- Seventh-day Adventist (1)
- Fewer
Will LOGOS' pandering to special interest groups never end? [;)]
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tom said:
he was trying to reform the church when he was excommunicated from the church.
Warning: theological warning. Being ex-communicated means that he was unable to receive communion (and other sacraments) until he repented ... We don't have an unbaptizing rite to remove him from the catholic church. And many of his reforms did go forward in the Church eventually.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
We don't have an unbaptizing rite to remove him from the catholic church.
"I unbaptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
Heavenly Father, we thank you that by water and the Holy Spirit you have bestowed uponthese your servants the retention of sin, and have returned them to the old life of condemnation. Harden them, O Lord, in your Holy Spirit. Give them an inquiring and discouraged heart, the fear to will and to persevere, a spirit to know and to oppose you, and the gift of sorrow and reject all your works.
Amen.
[:P] [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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[:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Actually, Catholics don't even really understand
the concept of denomination - they simply think of themselves as
members of the universal church (add the typical Jesus, Holy Spirit,
apostolic faith bit). The same is true of the Orthodox and the Church of
the East ... and for many Anglo-Catholics ... and for a whole bunch of
other people.MJ. Smith said:No universal (ecumenical) council was strictly RC. Catechisms are available in Lutheran, Baptist, Unitarian .... flavors. I also have Catholic catechisms that are not Roman - Byzantine and Ruthenian to be precise.
Hi MJ, thanks for taking the time to reply.
basically, what I meant by the topic of Catholics when I replied to Charles ( my re-quote below) is that in my experience I have heard Catholics say 'but im not Roman Catholic'. When Catholics say this to non-Catholics ( protestants that have no ties to Catholicism), the protestant immediately thinks:
- they are not in full harmonious communion with the pope,
- they are do not accept the pope's authority,
- and they do not accept the mandatory universal teaching beliefs that the pope & related councils have obliged all Catholics to believe, ( ie an anathema from the pope applies to them because of not abiding by those mandatory universal doctrines.)
- additionally the catholic them selves seems to say it when they also disagree with an obligatory belief (ie the catholic says "im not Roman Catholic" in the sense of "I can disagree with this mandatory belief because I am not Roman Catholic"), and the protestant thinks what just happened? this sort of Catholic church doesn't believe the mandatory teachings that are universally applied by the pope.
Im not trying to point the finger to anyone, but it seems that often when a lay catholic is asked a question, their first reply is that they are not Roman Catholic therefore your question does not apply to them.
So my point was that the word catholic is not properly understood even by lay Catholics, or alternatively, some Catholics presume at least one of the above applies to them, and that they are not obliged to agree with all the mandatory universal doctrines. The other alternative is that sometimes the catholic church itself prefers people to think that 'but im not Roman Catholic' is a preferable response for catholic to say to a non catholic in order to avoid a conversation about the faith. ( and I'm not saying this in a rude way - this is my experience, and the only possible conclusions that I can think of.
And relating it back to Charles post, my point was that the word catholic is often mixed up with the denomination catholic (that is all catholic churches which have the word 'catholic' in their title (IE not Orthodox churches etc) which are in full communion with the pope are are obliged to believe all universal teachings as handed down by the pope and related councils.
Luigi Sam said:Additionally you fail to mention:
there is Roman Catholicism, and Catholic churches which say they are
not Roman Catholics. They define themselves as separate, but in actual
fact they are still apart of the Roman Catholic Church ( That is they
are: in full harmonious communion with it, and accept the pope and the
teaching thereof).If I am wrong tell me this in a brief summary:
1. when did the 'catholic churches' ( that entitle themselves
'catholic' and whose priests wear the catholic white collar etc) define
themselves as not RC?2. what RC catechisms and decrees remain as adopted by the catholic
("but not RC") church (and what year did they stop being accepted )?3. Do they both have any councils and catechisms in common today?
4. what decrees does the 'catholic but not RC' differ in each council & catechism?
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Luigi Sam,
I was raised in the Stone-Campbell tradition in a very rural community - our class of 10 was the largest ever for our 3 room 8 grade school. "Town" claimed a population of 125 which I always claimed included the dogs and Grandma's goats. The ignorance you attribute to non-Catholics does not match my experience - although when a Greek order of nuns set up in the Simcoe mountains, people had to ask and listen to fit them into the religious landscape. I have offered to provide a reading list on church history and liturgical theology. It's your decision as to what you wish to know and the accuracy you require of yourself.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi Charles,
Thanks for noting your observations as nice as you can.
Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:Quite frankly: you just don't know enough about the subject matter to be speaking to it.
(1) Most churches (denominations) that I have encountered that are protestant say that there is danger and often deviation from what the bible clearly teaches in any of Church (whether classed as Christian, or cult like JW ( watch-tower magazine) & Mormonism (book of Mormon), or Like Judaism with their oral law) when they use 'additional teachings' that are not apart of the Bible, but in addition to the bible and have equal authority to the Bible.
They teach that it is a sure sign that there is error in that 'church', and insist on educating people by comparing and weighing these additional works to the Bible.
(2) To say that I know very little of the subject, is misrepresenting one of us.
If we present the Bible as a set, and we have an Intersection of the knowledge that we both should know and base our faith on, then this better represents my area of expertise in comparison to yours. By this, I can easily make reference to what I know, when I hear something that might, or might not be in that set. You are saying in effect that I need a masters in Catholicism, or that If I don't know every minute definition or protocol of Catholicism then I cant make statements of what I have verified as true & learned of Catholicism, and experienced by talking to lay Catholics. Therefore, while you observations are noted, I believe your condescension is invalid.
In fact I would say that If one were to master the Bible set better than any other 'set' in the 'Universal Set' that you propose* then they will always be better off.
* (Universal Set: meaning that you believe the Christian faith has includes extra equally authoritative doctrines ( even if they are disjoint from the bible set, or in opposition to the bible set of authoritative doctrines)
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MJ. Smith said:
Luigi Sam,
I was raised in the Stone-Campbell tradition in a very rural community - our class of 10 was the largest ever for our 3 room 8 grade school. "Town" claimed a population of 125 which I always claimed included the dogs and Grandma's goats. The ignorance you attribute to non-Catholics does not match my experience - although when a Greek order of nuns set up in the Simcoe mountains, people had to ask and listen to fit them into the religious landscape. I have offered to provide a reading list on church history and liturgical theology. It's your decision as to what you wish to know and the accuracy you require of yourself.
Hi MJ,
I haven't made any statements that were not personal experiences with lay Catholics first hand, and I have not raised any Catholic concerns except those that I verified from Catholic documents*.
* as far as I can remember anyway, at the time of writing this.
Thanks for sharing your experience too. ( And if you would like to post a list of stuff you believe will also be useful, could you post it on a new thread, and link to it here? thanks MJ)
Regards
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Lest anyone wonders: in terms of doctrinal position I am most definitely mainline Protestant.
However, the series of threads started by L.S. beginning with "Warning labels", is so seriously jarring and obstinate that for a moment I even entertained the thought he could be a troll with pro-Catholic inclinations.
Please, could the moderators lock these threads before they slide even further? Or delete them? I think the extended campaign by one individual to flog one issue does no good on these forums.
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Luigi Sam said:
when they use 'additional teachings' that are not apart of the Bible,
Not, all are in agreement of what books make up the Bible nor what books are a part of the greater canon! Also, let's not forget that some think of the 27 books of the NT as 'additional teachings' that are not part of the canon. (This I think is one of the reasons for the Verbum package. The normal passage guide ignores books in the Catholic and Orthodox canons.)
- The Jewish Canon: Tanakh (Hebrew Bible 24books) also of great importance the Mishna, Talmuds, Mishneh Torah and Shulchan Aruch
- Catholic: OT (46 books) and NT (27 books)
- Orthodox: OT (51 books) and NT (27 books usually)
- Protestant Canon: OT (39 books) and NT (27 books)
Also, check out this cool and informative chart:
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Lee said:
Lest anyone wonders: in terms of doctrinal position I am most definitely mainline Protestant.
However, the series of threads started by L.S. beginning with "Warning labels", is so seriously jarring and obstinate that for a moment I even entertained the thought he could be a troll with pro-Catholic inclinations.
Please, could the moderators lock these threads before they slide even further? Or delete them? I think the extended campaign by one individual to flog one issue does no good on these forums.
To put this back on track, please lets only reply if it regards the Original Post of this thread.
It was not my intention to raise issues that were outside of being relevant to the Logos Bible Software.
(Some of the posts now are getting 'doctrinal'.
Some times making some statements are required in order to make a valid case that the Logos Bible Software should support being denomination-ally neutral ( and thus validate the concern as serious, however since we might disagree on them ( which is the point) then we should keep in mind that they were only to validate that Logos Bible Software should be doing something to correct it as a vendor to us all. ) so please remember that the point is not to continue discussing that particular doctrine - it only points out that there is a difference - there is no need to go on about it beyond this.
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No, straw man again.
It is not so much that posters are going off track in your threads, Luigi. (Besides, you meander off admirably enough when it suits your purpose.)
It is simply this: your threads are off track in this forum. Your campaign has been turned down by Logos, ignored, gently rebutted, yet you persist. And it is meandering dangerously close to another one of those Protestant-Catholic "discussions".
To the admin: Please LOCK or DELETE.
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Lee said:
No, straw man again.
It is not so much that posters are going off track in your threads, Luigi. (Besides, you meander off admirably when it suits your purpose too.)
It is simply this: your threads are off track in this forum.
I cant stop others going off topic, and if I reply on occasion to make sure that others don't presume to try to take authority* away from, or minimize my concerns.
If you don't like this thread, feel free not to read it.
if you aren't going to reply to the OP, then please don't compound the issue of off topic posts.
Edit *[authority as in: try to undermine me, or my post as being a valid concern, or my reasons that add validity to my concern]
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additionally, I am battling to keep my posts on topic for the most part.
I wouldn't be surprised if others are posting on purpose about off topic issue's just so that my valid concerns are ["DELETED"].
and just so that if or when I reply, they might say 'look LS is just posting 'straw' and then ask Logos to delete my OP, which is valid.
( Im not accusing anyone by name tho )
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Luigi Sam said:
I cant stop others going off topic, and if I reply on occasion to make sure that others don't presume to try to take authority away from, or minimize my concerns.
Authority? Minimize your concern? [8-)]
Luigi Sam said:If you don't like this thread, feel free not to read it.
Obviously, that would be to "minimize your concern". But that is avoided by spewing threads all over, no?
Luigi Sam said:if you aren't going to reply to the OP, then please don't compound the issue of off topic posts.
Again: your threads are themselves off-topic. Your "concern" has been addressed by other users and even Bob Pritchett. Move on. In one of your posts you raise the spectre of Logos potentially being "hijacked" by one particular denomination. I only see one Forum hijacked by a poster with an insatiable desire to redress a particular grievance.
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BKMitchell said:
Hi BKMichell,
thanks heaps!
I hope that we can all now move on, and just try to keep this thread on what the OP says.
Thanks again.
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Lee said:
Again: your threads are themselves off-topic. Your "concern" has been addressed by other users and even Bob Pritchett. Move on.
well, Bradley from Logos is the man in regards to who will update Bob Pritchett on this concern, and this is pending reply atm.
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:That is, you believe it should
not be the case that one denomination is treated specially in the Logos
product lineup, especially with a custom-branded product. If that is
indeed the case, I can make sure Bob is aware of this the next time I
see him.
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Bob has already replied in categorical terms.
I think all users see that Logos will not grant your reprieve.
Move on.
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You opinion does not change the fact that a Logos Rep said he will update Bob on this.
Your posts do not invalidate this.
Please don't post anymore on this thread, unless you want to address the OP.
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Please be reminded that your space and "authority" on these threads is subject to the space and authority of Logos and the community of users on this Forum.
Please be reminded that by posting on this Forum you agree to general etiquette and specific Forum guidelines.
Please be reminded that correctness of one opinion or position is neither validated/invalidated by observers, nor validated/invalidated by one's obstinacy.
You have tenaciously pushed your opinion on this Forum. Be prepared to accept criticism.
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Lee said:
To the admin: Please LOCK or DELETE.
One way to send a message to the Logos Forum administrators is click More, then Report Abuse, which opens an email form so can fill in subject and message.
Thankful for Logos forum administrators response to Abuse Reports, which can include leaving thread unlocked for a forum reputation, which is publicly searchable. Thankful for a number of threads outside Logos forum guidelines being deleted. Seem to remember some forum users being Thankful for Logos administrators respecting original poster request for thread deletion.
Thankful for Logos 5 and Verbum introductory discounts with dynamic upgrade pricing plus payment plan. Thankful for Logos expanding digital library business.
Thankful for Bob Pritchett, CEO, participating in many forum discussions and posting => Answer the Logos User Survey!
Thankful for many friendly forum discussions about using Logos Bibles Software: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Just half an hour ago, I already did that Report Abuse thingy. Thanks for the reminder though!
I am also thankful for the usefulness of this Forum. Amazed that customer service reps, even the Prez himself, can make occasional appearances and clarifications!
I am also thankful that any valid grievance can always be privately and directly communicated to Logos staffers, and even the Prez himself, by email. Such a wonderful channel of communication is open to us, that was not available in the pre-internet age.
So, we should all help maintain the original reference and spirit of the Forum.
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Luigi Sam,
Logos5 re-branded and modified is being sold as a non-denominational Catholic product just as the standard Logos5 base products are being sold as nondenominational Protestant product. In Protestant world there are many denominations, and in the Catholic world there are many rites, orders, and sects. There was a demand for a Catholic product or at least to make Logos more catholic friendly.
The standard Logos base packages were/are highly biased in favor of the protestant canon, meaning that Catholic/Orthodox Christians running normal searches, PG, EG, TG, and BWS might not be able to get information relevant to all of their canon. The normal base products are also weak in catholic resources. Sure, Logos could could have radically changed their normal basepackage offerings and GUI to make it more Catholic/Orthodox friendly but this too may have angered or confused some of their users. So, they created the Verbum line, Verbum website, and Verbum blog for Catholics.
I am sure other groups, denominations, and so on could have their own line, too if: there was enough demand and if Logos deemed it a profitable venture.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Hi BKMitchell,
BKMitchell said:Logos5 re-branded and modified is being sold as a non-denominational Catholic product just as the standard Logos5 base products are being sold as nondenominational Protestant product. In Protestant world there are many denominations, and in the Catholic world there are many rites, orders, and sects. There was a demand for a Catholic product or at least to make Logos more catholic friendly.
I've replied many times that Verbum is sold as Catholic (that is One Denomination by name).
As I understand your post, you are saying that Verbum is being sold as 'Catholic' in terms of a non-denominational Catholic product.
Whereas, the fact is that in the Catholic denomination whose head is the Pope, there are many rites (I mean Catholic Chruches who are not Roman Catholic Churches). But the fact is that all of these rites of Catholicism are still subject to the Universal mandatory decrees of the Pope and relevant Councils. Thus to a protestant, they are all apart of the Catholic denomination. That defines what is a catholic church and what isn't.
To further clarify please read this post of mine: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/65685/461582.aspx#461582
The Verbum product might cater for other denominations (that is Orthodox etc not directly named as catholic churches), but this is irrelevant, and an unintended way to explain the advertising as "Verbum for Catholics". Meaning that the intended audience of Verbum is primarily intended for the catholic denomination as I have explained above, and in that link, and expressly advertised by them that this is intention.
Therefore, my concern is still very valid, and Verbum still is labelled and expressly advertised for the Catholic denomination as defined above.
[ addition:
also aside from the above, even if I entertained your explanation as true, it still doesn't change the fact that Verbum expressly says
"Catholic" and Logos does not expressly say "Protestant".]
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To admin again: Please LOCK or DELETE
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Eastern catholic churches may be full communion with the church of Rome, but are still autonomous. There are 23 different eastern rites or different catholic(universals) churches. They are not subject to any mandatory degrees; they can and do differ with the church of Rome. For example: Priest can have a wife in the other rites where in the Roman Catholic church they usually can not.
Here are a few excerpts from the Logos edition of the Code of Canons:
TITLE II. CHURCHES SUI IURIS AND RITES
CAN. 27† A community of the Christian faithful, which is joined together by a hierarchy according to the norm of law and which is expressly or tacitly recognized as sui iuris by the supreme authority of the Church, is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.
CAN. 28 §1.† A rite is a liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary heritage, differentiated by the culture and the circumstances of the history of peoples, which is expressed by each Church sui iuris in its own manner of living the faith.
john paul, "Apostolic Constitution Sacri Canones", Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches: New English Translation (Washington, DC: Canon Law Society of America, 2001). 10.
"This is also evident in the various forms of the hierarchical constitution of the Eastern Churches: the patriarchal Churches are preeminent among these, in which the patriarchs and synods are sharers in the supreme authority of the Church by canon law. With these forms, delineated in their own title at the opening of the Code, there is immediately evident both the appearance of each and every Eastern Church as it has been sanctioned by canon law and their autonomous status, as well as their full communion with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Saint Peter, who, presiding over the whole assembly of charity, safeguards legitimate diversity and, at the same time, keeps watch that individuality serves unity rather than harming it (cf. const. Lumen gentium, n. 13)."
john paul, "Apostolic Constitution Sacri Canones", Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches: New English Translation (Washington, DC: Canon Law Society of America, 2001). xxiv.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Luigi: You asked, you were given an answer. Verbum stays, as is. It's done.
We have all tried our best to help you understand.
I was the one who suggested we just ignore the threads so they would cease, then felt bad about that as I felt ( at least for myself ) you needed a better explanation of the intricacies of "why" Logos might be doing this and what it means for us who study a great deal and, how these things might affect you positively .
You have proven I was wrong.
My Apology's to everyone, Please forgive.
You are just being obstinate Luigi.
How about this: Why not be glad for all of us that have had to go through so many years of not being able to get the resources and tools we needed, but are now getting.
Rejoice with those that rejoice!
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Fr Charles ... in your quest to silence Luigi (does that ring a bell maybe?), your discussion has been very educational (both you and MJ). I've learned more in this thread, than I've learned in my whole lifetime (very short, really .... hush, hush). The practicalities and subtlties from a real person (vs a book) often provide greater clarity.
Maybe Luigi was doing you a favor? You were wrong about your ability to join the 'we'. But you need not be forgiven. Just the opposite. My complements!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Aww, shucks DMB, Your very Kind. MJ better deserves any credit. ( Quite the intellect there).
I just like to see growth. I garden quite a lot too, so watching and helping growth is something I have always enjoyed. People, plants, building things.
I learn a great deal in my garden, good place to contemplate, see how things relate to one another. There are a lot of things interrelating for a plant to grow, many things going on in the soils, many things going on in the plants, many factors in weather, rain etc. etc.
Life is like that, the Gospel is like that, learning is like that.
I love looking at/for all the things/ideas/events etc. that are part of the Activity of God with His creation and, the highest part of that, His activity with Human Beings. I learn something new each and every day. Each day has some "wow" moment where I see something and how it relates to other things, that I had not seen connected before.
Learning is just so very, very cool to me, exciting actually- I just love it.
Guess I have a bit of the adventurer in me. Each time I learn something new, I just can't wait to see where that too leads, what is to be seen and experienced next, what great vistas God is awaiting me to be ready to see. So glad The Lord is patient with me and always has something to show me. Sometimes I wonder if the Holy Trinity gets a bit of a giggle out of my excitement at learning, sort of like parents do watching children open presents at Christmas.
Guess thats really it, When it comes to study and learning more of what God has for us, I am that excited Kid at Christmas with the big eyes and excited squeals of Joy. I just can't believe I get such cool stuff! Smile.
We have a wonderful Father, an Incredible Lord and Savior and, He has a very nice Mother.
Grace and Peace,
May God Himself bless you with Vision after Vision of His incredible Mercy, Peace and Grace.
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Luigi Sam said:
And relating it back to Charles post, my point was that the word catholic is often mixed up with the denomination catholic
Hear, hear. Will this multi-page thread matter when Christ calls his bride, the Church, out of this world for the marriage supper of the Lamb? Is the Bible not clear there is One body? One Communion? One Book of Life? It matters not what sign adorns my house of worship so long as my name is written in that Book. He knows His sheep and they hear His voice. They make up the true "catholic" ("universal" unseen) Church.
None of us can say everyone who worships at our own church is truly saved. None of us can know if everyone in another church is lost. Church signs and verbal labels only serve to divide us. I don't like them in my community and I don't want them in my Logos.
If one is diligently seeking the Truth they can trust God not to mislead them.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super Tramp said:
If one is diligently seeking the Truth they can trust God not to mislead them.
God might not mislead them, but people mislead themselves all the time. I know of a Buddhist who is honestly seeking the truth - and she feels that she has found it in the teachings of Buddha. God is the one that draws sinners to Himself, not the other way around. I'm not convinced that a sinner must be diligently searching to qualify for this divine mercy (or vice versa). Qualification comes from God alone.
I know that I wasn't seeking God when He sucker punched me with the gospel and had me believe. [;)]
Either way, this thread needs to be locked. All that can be said has been said. At the end of the day Logos can do whatever they want.
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Word from the BBC is that Pope Benedict felt that the only way he could escape the utter monotony of this thread was to resign and live in a monastery.
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Count me as one of the Protestants that doesn't care if Logos chooses to re-brand their platform and includes specific resources to market their software to Roman Catholics or anybody else for that matter. Nor do I think they should add Protestant to the packages just to please a portion of their client base.
Says far more about the OP and others that they have a problem with current Logos marketing practices than it does about Logos.
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Josh said:
this thread needs to be locked
Let this thread die so we can all join the refrain of Basil Fawlty ...
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Locking. There was hope that this thread was going to die of natural causes, but that is not going to happen.
Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics in these forums.
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