LOGOS PLATFORM is being sold as Catholic

Cross Posted as Luigi shut down and moved his thread.

Luigi: First, I have responded to you several times.

Next: I think the whole thing is ridiculas.

Next: I believe your responses now are dishonest. When you first posted ( yes, I have read them all) as distasteful as it was, you were at least honest, now, you cover your real intentions with all sorts of "straw man " arguments, thats what I think.

You whole reasoning in your first post was that Catholic materials needed warning labels because you believe them to be dangerous , especially to new believers. I responded to those posts, you did not reply. 

I find the whole thing quite distasteful, just to be honest with you.

Next: You keep speaking of Logos being hijacked.

Straw man argument.

The only person /persons that could complain about Logos being hijacked would be the owners of what had been hijacked.

Logos is not complaining about Logos being hijacked.

Logos software is a company, they have every right to do whatever they wish with thier product.

You, as a customer have every right to buy it or, not buy it.

If you don't like the way Logos is being managed , write a letter to the owner, call him, his number is listed.

I don't think you will though because the real issue you have is with Catholics and Catholic Materials. You believe they should be labeled as false doctrine, you want warning labels placed on them as if they are poison. This is why you hate Verbum, for you feel Catholic is getting a leg up on protestant denominationalism, through Logos. Thus, your real motivation and purpose is to do all you can to combat Catholic growth in any way you can.

In my humble opinion, this is not the place for Chick Track mentalities or discussion of same.

Again, Logos is a company, they have the freedom to market as they please.

I have no issue at all with Catholic branding, with Jewish branding, Pentecostal etc.

Next:

What we have now is two "overarching" groups represented, those two "groups" are:

1. Protestants - huge libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

2. Catholic- Huge Libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

1a. Logos standard has resources from all over the protestant experience and it's history, including Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Non-Denominational, generally all Evangelical disciplines.

2b. Catholic/Verbum- Libraries of resources covering/of special interest to:  Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and other disciplines.

Note: Looks to me like Logos is simply trying to cover the known Christian market as it is normally seen , trying to meet the "needs" of those who will/would be buying thier products.

Opinion:

Logos is doing well to do so, Logos is looking to meet the needs of it's user base and looking to expand that user base- Good business plan.

Logos is a company , will grow or die based on it's business decisions.

No one here has a right to make those business decisions for Logos for no one here is willing to take the risks, make the investments Logos is willing to make.

Logos has many employees, they have families , those families need to pay bills, Logos has to grow in order to take care of it's employee base.

Logos has to deal with Publishers , a very, very difficult situation these days, very confused environment , much like Music Industry before iTunes changed everything. Logos has to respond to the Publisher environment, their needs, demands in order to get those resources, this , in all likelihood, plays a major role in Logos Marketing decisions.

Logos can now, for the first time, in reality, truly make a claim to being non-denominational, for not only do they have some catholic resources available in a protestant format, but they now have a catholic format, thus serving both the Evangelical/Protestant disciplines AND the Catholic Disciplines.

I have never complained about the Protestant Software and Libraries, I use them.

I am very blessed to now have the Catholic Software and Libraries.

Again Luigi: I find the whole thing distasteful , now dishonest. If You don't want the catholic resources, don't buy them.

You have no use for Verbum, don't buy it.

You have all the access you want to Protestant Software and Libraries.

If Verbum is the Catholic version, then Logos Standard is the Protestant version.

Logos software "systems" is a computer platform to access and use the Logos library system.

Logos is the best way to access Evangelical Protestant library resources.

Verbum is the best way to access Catholic Library resources.

The Catholic Library system "is" somewhat different ( be better when finished ) because the tagging to Catechisms/Lectionaries effects how we access materials and, catholics also have some different key-words we use in "subject" searches. We also have some different Biblical books.  We often use parts of history "some" evangelicals don't use or use as often. We use a lot of Greek and Latin words/word groups/phrases that have to be tagged/accounted for that "some" evangelicals would have no interest in.

I could give you probably another dozen or so reasons why Verbum IS NOT just Logos "rebranded" as you like to say so often. There has to be an enormous amount of coding done in Verbum that is different than the Evangelical/Protestant version called Logos .

Ok, you asked, you have my answer.

Personally think I/we should all just quit responding to these threads because the real and core issue is your being Anti-Catholic , wanting all Catholic materials branded with warning labels as "dangerous" and making uneducated biased statements like : catholic lay people don't read and study the Bible as much, don't know the faith etc. etc. 

Again, I find your whole reason for all of this to be most distasteful, thus I will be praying for your enlightenment.

Hope that covers everything for you in a succinct way.

Pray you find Grace and Peace in Christ Jesus.

Logos does this because there are millions of Catholics and Logos wants their business. It's ultimately about making more money, which the Catholic market undoubtedly brings in. There is certainly pros and cons to this. However, I find it strange that Logos and it's leadership explicitly disagree with Catholic dogma but have created a Catholic product.

It's one thing to provide Catholic-based resources to study, it's another to purposely make a product solely for Catholics to use to advance their erroneous theology.

Luigi writes:

I am arguing:

• Only Catholics get to re-brand and resell the Logos Platform as Catholic  (Verbum) .
• Thus highjacking the purpose of a 'non-denominational program' by re-advertising it as Catholic.

My Reply: Where did you get the idea that Catholics are "rebranding and reselling" the logos Platform Luigi?

Thats just nuts.

Logos-The Company has created a "different version" called Verbum, with lots of different coding/materials/resources etc. to meet the needs of the catholic/orthodox/anglican/lutheran community. Logos sells it, not Catholics.

Good grief.

<Insert witty, angry, pointless response here>

There. Thread finished. Nothing left to be said.

Chris Roberts said:

<Insert witty, angry, pointless response here>

There. Thread finished. Nothing left to be said.

I wish that were true. However, there are many Logos users who are sincerely concerned about this issue. Most wouldn't dare post their concerns though out of fear of being labeled intolerant. I used to be a Catholic. In fact, most of my family is still Catholic. I certainly don't hate Catholics. However, I firmly believe that their dogmas and theology have serious salvific implications.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

and MJ knocks one out of the park right over mid field!!!

Yea MJ.

Luigi Sam said:

Also, Yes I have concerns about other denominations including Catholicism. However my intentions are to raise awareness of critical denominational issues so that a wise denominationally netural software product can be used as a tool for those who are consious of those issues.

"To Dream, the Impossible Dream..."

If there is one thing that we have learned in the 20th Century it is that where you stand and what you look for is quite influential about what you see.  Now, by bringing this up, by NO means am I advocating total relativeness or denying that we can know anything about things.  But it is a LOT easier to say "denominationally neutral" or "non-denominational" that to actually BE these things. The fact is that different people study the Bible for very different reasons.

Luigi Sam said:

Yes I raised specific quotes in order to highlight some problems as critical regarding catholicism (Yes I did this regardless of my thoughts that Logos should implement features to make itself support those consious of those iessue).

But I am not sure your actually read them.  As I, as admittedly an outsider, understand Roman Catholic theology, it is a very different thing to say that something has been seen in scriptures for a very long time and saying that it is required element of the deposit of faith that as dogma must be confessed.  With regards to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the quotation you gave was a statement of historical fact that people have talked that way (namely, that it is really hard to tell the story of Jesus without talking about Mary).  It was not a statement that Mary is the co-redemtrix who has a status equal to her Son.  Rome has never officially said that.  Even in proclaiming the Immaculate Conception, it is stated that this is so in order that she may bear Jesus.  I admit that I think this was an over-reach to close off this debate about when and how God made Mary able to bear Jesus...

But this very misreading of quotes is an example of what I am trying to say.  Unfortunately we all ask different questions of scripture and because of this have a real hard time understanding each other.  This makes it really hard to make a universal tool that would apply to all.

Speaking as a Lutheran, I would love it if there were clear, built in tools to help us to clearly show the distinction between Law (what God has given us to make the world work smoothly and should be used to help our neighbors, but which causes terrible consequences when we try to use it to control God) and Gospel (how God in Christ in the Cross is still actively coming to us - choosing the weak, the broken, the outsider, in short, you who are crushed by the Law, reconciling them to God in himself).  But many christians (oddly, from my perspective) do not think this life giving distinction which we find running throughout the whole bible and without which we fail to see much sense it in, is that important...  And so I make do with what we have.  Actually, I rejoice in what we have, having been trained before tools like this were available.  It takes out so much of the grunt work...

And I fail to see the problem.  It is obvious from looking at the base packages that "Logos" has an evangelical protestant slant...

SDG

Ken McGuire

Sogol said:

As long as it's a good business decision, I'm happy for Logos to make a customized product for just about any group that wants to study the Bible. They could even offer "Atheos" for non-believer Bible study.

[Y]

My reply started with talking about how "non-denominational" is a myth.  You have a standpoint.  It shapes what you see. I then attempted to read one of the quotes you found objectionable within the context of Roman Catholic theology as I understand it, trying to show that it didn't quite say what you think it does as an example of how our standpoints shape what we see.  I stated that I fail to see the problem in what Logos is doing in trying to provide tools for different communities. I concluded with a dream of something I WISH were somehow in some bible software programs, but I have never seen...

I suppose I should specifically say "invalid," about your concerns, but I thought it was obvious...

When you're posts have alot of spilling, grammer an usage mistackes it unfortunately maks it hard to sees what u mean.  Is sees no reason to argue further.

Luigi Sam said:

This thread is to raise the issue that the Logos platform is being advertised and sold as Catholic. (Verbum latin for "the word")

Are you sure your name isn't Peter Celini?  I have my suspicions since you seem to have a fixation on Catholic publications.  You might say you're Luigi Linguini-brain.

This forum has become polluted with this garbage.  Why can Luigi not take the hint that NOBODY cares about this issue except for him?  Please give it a rest.  

Doug said:

This forum has become polluted with this garbage.  Why can Luigi not take the hint that NOBODY cares about this issue except for him?  Please give it a rest.  

And another stated "and we're all getting sick of this topic."

But we are still posting.