LOGOS PLATFORM is being sold as Catholic
Comments
-
Ill chime into this a bit. Im a Protestant minister, and I don't think we have to pretend that the differences between Catholics and Protestants don't matter, but we have to recognize that Logos is a good tool. One that is being used to get people into the Word. If I were not a protestant minister but a protestant businessman Id be more than happy to sell logos to many Catholics seeking to be strengthened by the Word. Id also understand that many protestants would be bothered if all of a sudden my product was inundated by catholic writings. It seems that to make a catholic focused package is a great way to avoid pretending as if everyone is interchangeable while providing everyone with a good product. Imagine how overwhelming it would be?
0 -
Luigi Sam said:
In all respect, I am not being sanctimonious but may I recommend a neuteral book source that would help you think things through in an orderly manner?
My formal Bible education was in a Bible college associated with Knofel Staton, Don DeWelt, Standard Publishing & College Press. I say "sanctimonious" applies doubly so if you attempt to school me 35 years after the fact. If you are from the Campbellite background you should know they disclaim being a denomination.And my present church affiliation (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist) also disclaims being a denomination as well as even being Protestant at all.
My thought processes are a bit deeper than an introductory pamphlet on Bible study. I am assuming much of my message need not be spoken but is understood. I am giving you credit for not being as thick as you are presently coming across. I am reasonably comfortable believing the other readers of these threads get it.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Fwiw: Like many of us, I too tried logic here with Luigi.
No logical method will work.
In my humble opinion we are left with only one right thing to do: Discontinue all posting to these threads.
Smile: It's hard though isn't it?
We keep coming back like moths to light, we want to look out the car window at the auto accident, we find ourselves still trying to beat the rigged game at the fair etc. etc.
Yet, it is my belief we do everyone a great service if we simply stop posting to these threads.
Blessings of Grace and Peace to all.
0 -
Super Tramp said:Luigi Sam said:
In all respect, I am not being sanctimonious but may I recommend a neuteral book source that would help you think things through in an orderly manner?
My formal Bible education was in a Bible college associated with Knofel Staton, Don DeWelt, Standard Publishing & College Press. I say "sanctimonious" applies doubly so if you attempt to school me 35 years after the fact. If you are from the Campbellite background you should know they disclaim being a denomination.And my present church affiliation (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist) also disclaims being a denomination as well as even being Protestant at all.
My thought processes are a bit deeper than an introductory pamphlet on Bible study. I am assuming much of my message need not be spoken but is understood. I am giving you credit for not being as thick as you are presently coming across. I am reasonably comfortable believing the other readers of these threads get it.
Hi ST,
I didn't mean it like that, you are just being defensive. Even the most seasoned person can benefit from simple things.
Also, it would be worth considering the fact that: (Ecc 4:13 )"Better is a poor and a wise child than an old and foolish king, who will no more be admonished."
but maybe you are taking things too personally atm, and will not take some time to cool down - I hope you do take some time to cool down.
If you understand the point of the opening post, please try to bring something to the table. I proposed two solutions. What have you brought to the thread?
Thats why I suggested the book, because you seem to post off topic, and in ways that are not in context to the opening post or in light of how it has progressed.
If you can't take that on board and be humble (and try to overlook that someone is calling you out on this) then maybe you have something significant to think about on that verse.
I will upload another diagram explaining my proposed solution. I hope you can take your time before posting your next post to consider it. ( and during that time consider that i'm not posting to upset you )
Regards.
0 -
Here is another outline to demonstrate my solution proposal.
You might have to click on it, to see the text.
I hope that people can bring something to the table instead of getting off topic too.
Thanks.
0 -
Luigi,
You've obviously put a lot of work and thought into this. Your diagram is clear, and I want to thank you for it. I wish I had your mapping skills.
If it helps, I don't think the issue is with the "fairness" of your solution. I think the question is whether any change is necessary.
1) So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos. In the past, Logos allowed Thomas Nelson to use its software (Libronix). Generally said, if it helps Logos to market their product, and this success ensures a pipeline of quality resources, then most probably see it (re-branding) as beneficial.
2) I understand the argument that there might be confusion if there aren't "warning labels" or other clearly delineated denominational markers. However, I can't think of a neat solution to it. Although I am not Catholic, I have purchased and appreciate Catholic works. There is historical value in it to me (Anselm, Aquinas, etc.) and some of the modern works are worth it to challenge my thinking. If everyone on the forum agreed with you that works should be separated into denominational categories, (as this thread shows) you'd probably have many different opinions about which resources belong where. You'd also have a lot of opinions on how specific these "denomination" labels should be.
I have to trust that Logos users have the discernment to note the theological tradition of the authors they read, and not to simply conduct simple searches and paste quotes into their essays and sermon powerpoints. I share your concern that some may be challenged (or confused) in their beliefs as a result of the number of views included in a single library. But, I think I'm more comfortable than you letting the users bear the responsibility, such as a theological library would its patrons.
0 -
Garrett Ho said:
If it helps, I don't think the issue is with the "fairness" of your solution. I think the question is whether any change is necessary.
1) So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos. In the past, Logos allowed Thomas Nelson to use its software (Libronix). Generally said, if it helps Logos to market their product, and this success ensures a pipeline of quality resources, then most probably see it (re-branding) as beneficial.
Hi Garrett,
I greatfully thank you for a good and civilised response that addresses this thread. ( in particular the above portion).
I understand that you make a different conclusion than i do, and I have no problem with you coming to a different conclusion. That is what a forum is all about.
( i write this so others that read this would also follow your example too, so sorry if this reply seems a little too over explained ).
Garrett Ho said:So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos.
I have been under the impression that most users did not know this actually. The way that Verbum is spoken about from the Logos company seems to not be expressly clear. Whereas if you actually go out of your way to read about it and how it is advertised, the penny drops. Even Catholic websites etc seem to point it out more clearly than the Logos company does to the general public.
This is why I was under the impression that few people actually realised this, and wanted to make people aware.
On top of this, I added my solutions out of trying to help make it fair.
I thank you again for understanding, and replying the way you have.
Kindly.
.Luigi.s
0 -
You have one here that is just not bothered at all.
It is my interest that Logos better expands it's market into the Catholic market to help ensure its survival. As Protestant it is my interest that Catholics are encouraged to use Logos and be exposed to a wide range of Protestant material which they will do even tho they are encouraged to look to a separate brand for specific Catholic material. As a Seventh-day Adventist I appreciate having a range of Catholic material to obtain to understand better how my Catholic friends think. I find the vast range of material in Logos makes it harder for me to be able to ensure that I have a balanced library - at least this is now not a problem for me for Catholic material! I find that I understand better what I believe when I read what I do not believe.
I just do not feel that your fears are well founded in what is happening.
Gods blessings
0 -
Luigi Sam said:Garrett Ho said:
So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos.
I have been under the impression that most users did not know this actually.
Have they been living under a rock? in a cave?
0 -
Count me in as a cave dweller.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
DMB said:
Count me in as a cave dweller.
It is easy to have missed, if you don't keep up with the forum or specific blogs.
Here is some info from November that might be of interest to you: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godandthemachine/2012/11/verbum-the-new-logos-for-catholics/
0 -
I want to live with Christ and do not bother about any labels.
Perhaps Logos can be a bridge between all serious believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.
WE are doing the labeling (or perhaps worse, the people who trust in our church and seminary etc who are depending on our trust and/or money.....)
My personal opinion is that we need to love each believer in Christ despite our self-made, denominational differences. Yes, that is difficult and will take all of us.
Please do not react as here in Holland: for every opinion a church. Let's seek our union in Christ and I am sure all differences of this or that opinion will be acceptable to all. Please see the it all in perspective and in light of the great future we all hope to share.
Hans
MacOS Sierra / Logos 7 Collector's Edition & All Base Packages / Logos Now
0 -
Thanks, Garrett.
Goodness, I didn't read far before I was hot under the collar (lay collar I guess).
'Evangelicals have no real need for latin.' Where'd that come from? I didn't realize what cave I was in!
No wonder there's hardly any latin support in Logos5! I'm switching over to Verbum.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
DMB said:
'Evangelicals have no real need for latin.' Where'd that come from?
From the proof that all groups can have mistaken stereotypes of each other?
DMB said:No wonder there's hardly any latin support in Logos5! I'm switching over to Verbum.
I fear much of the Latin is still to come ... but it will come. Isn't it great that one can switch canons etc. with the typing of a single command?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
DMB said:
'Evangelicals have no real need for latin.' Where'd that come from? I didn't realize what cave I was in!
I was raised in a fundamentalist church, but I took Latin in HS and have never been sorry for having done so. When I started taking Greek and Hebrew (and Ugaritic and Akkadian), the language training came in handy. You can usually tell when someone has had Latin. It helps with English too.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
Anthony H said:MJ. Smith said:
Isn't it great that one can switch canons etc. with the typing of a single command?
You can?
Apparently you missed the post or didn't read all of it, but Fr. Matheny (almost wrote Mulcahy—thanks M*A*S*H) explained that.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
George Somsel said:
Apparently you missed the post or didn't read all of it, but Fr. Matheny (almost wrote Mulcahy—thanks M*A*S*H) explained that.
oh Goodness! did you marry 'hot lips'?
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
0 -
0
-
Jack Caviness said:
Not to speak for George, but I also had a year of Latin in High School before they canceled Latin classes because of lack of interest. [:'(] Anyway, a friend of mine from College is doing some house-shopping, comparing various schools, and he posted on Facebook the games from one Chicago area school that was teaching Latin in Elementary School. For a dead language, Latin lives on!
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
0 -
Jack Caviness said:
Right after Aquinas wrote his Summas. [;)]
BTW: The HS I attended (public—warning to Brits, this is not the same as public schools in Brittain) still teaches Latin.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
0
-
Jack Caviness said:Luigi Sam said:Garrett Ho said:
So far, I don't think many other non-Catholics have cared that Verbum is a "re-brand" of Logos.
I have been under the impression that most users did not know this actually.
Have they been living under a rock? in a cave?
Hi Jack,
I guess I am also speaking up from my personal experience of this.
I believe I was surfing around the Logos.com site around the time verbum was being announced, and I didn't pay any attention to it because it seemed like it was just a collection of books.
It was not until a week or so ago I realised, and raised this as an issue. ( an issue in that: (1) the Logos platform is allready non-denominational, and thus there is no need for a rebadge of the Logos platform. (2) by relabeling the logos platform for a single denomination (verbum for catholics) it is compromising its Logos platform as being one software name for all denominations. (3) it insinuates that the Logos Platform ideal as being a denominational-ally neuteral platfrom -is not good enough for catholics - yet every other denomination is being treated as one group under the 'general logos platform brand' whereas catholics are seperate, and require the 'catholic brand'.)
As my diagram shows, there is a fair way to do this so that one denomination is not put above the others.
0 -
Luigi Sam,
Your diagram misses a major point. People using the Hebrew canon for the OT have often expressed displeasure when Logos supports the Alexandrian canon i.e LXX (or larger canon) or defaults liturgical features (lectionaries). The Verbum platform could as easily be described as the liturgical church / larger canon Logos version (i.e. especially appealing to Anglican, Catholic, Eastern Church, Lutheran and Orthodox churches). The Logos platform is accurately described as targeting non-liturgical, smaller canon churches - using databases excluding the broader canon books. A significant group of users straddle the line between the two versions depending upon their particular interests.
I think it was a wise decision on the part of Logos to continue support for the shorter canon when expanding their market into the larger canon. That they chose to leave the Logos name on the traditional short canon product makes sense - it leaves things as the majority of their original user base expect. To create a new name for the broader canon package makes a statement that they understand that some needs are different when a broader canon is used and when liturgy and church documents or confessions have a broader role in study.
I understand that you see this as inappropriate - I understood your logic in your initial post. I am not a business person and simply defer to the owners of Logos to run the company as they see fit. However, as a computer analyst I would have pushed for separate names as well to avoid user confusion.
You are correct that the Logos engine is pan-denominational. L3 was marketed if I recall correctly as potentially a discipline independent library system. The Logos 5 engine has the same potential. However, the moment one adds resources - books or databases you start tailoring it to fit a particular set of interests, including denominational ones. Because you have not used L4 or L5, you may not realize the degree to which the datasets reflect canon, and may not understand why Logos made the choices it did.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Luigi Sam said:
I believe I was surfing around the Logos.com site around the time verbum was being announced, and I didn't pay any attention to it because it seemed like it was just a collection of books.
Mostly Verbum is a collection of Books – there are switches in the Logos program to help make those books more useful as MJ Smith points out [[far better than I could say]] The Verbum or Logos trademark reminds us how we have the switches set
I am one of those that “”straddle the line between the two versions depending upon their particular interests.””
0 -
- accidentally posted my response twice -
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
However, as a computer analyst I would have
pushed for separate names as well to avoid user confusion.as
a software developer I would push for it to be labelled to express what
it is: something like: activate button: liturgical mode.Surely the word 'Verbum' is not meant to reflect this meaning?
In
my opinion, using the word Verbum does not reflect this at all, but is
expressly used to advertise the software platform as Catholic software
for catholics.Secondly and Critically: it is expressly advertised as Verbum for Catholics ( Catholic by name ). It is not advertised as "Logos for liturgical churches."
In summary
(excuse my large print, it is just for highlighting this point, and not to be rude )
-
It is not advertised as "Logos for liturgical churches."
-
It is advertised as "Logos for Catholics."
0 -
-
David Ames said:
The Verbum or Logos trademark reminds us how we have the switches set
Hi David,
Could you post a screen shot of this 'switch'?
[ both set as on & off]
0 -
Dear Luigi: Perhaps you do not have a wide enough understanding of Liturgical and catholic?
1. The Divine Liturgy, is "how we worship and live".
2. Catholic is the Faith that has been given. Short ( very short ) definition of the word is: that which is universal. In other words, the faith given us by God, through Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit in the Holy Apostles and handed down to this day. Thus, in actuality, catholic is not and should not be seen as any type of denominational label. It is only when we put "Roman" in front of it that we get some type of ( if you will -some license taken here for explanation purpose ) denominational label. So Catholic or, catholic, is not a denomination, it is a word that has to do with the faith once given, for all time, to everyone. The Roman Church is not the only church, group, denomination that uses this word or claims catholicity . The Orthodox, Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans and others do as well.
While Verbum does have a Roman lean to it, it is not there for just Romans. Lots of people are buying it, loving it, enjoying it and like having access to different taggings etc.
What you have argued is that Logos was and should be denominationally neutral , just the faith. Ok, Then it should be called : Catholic Logos Software. That would mean: Universal Word of God Software.
That would be about as accuratly "denominationally neutral " as you could get.
Just sayin. Hope it helps.
0 -
Luigi Sam said:
Could you post a screen shot of this 'switch'?
In the command box type (without the “ “)
“Set Verbum to No”
Normal Logos 5 functionality
“Set Verbum to Yes “
Added functionality [not a complete list]
Search adds three collections: Catechism, Church Documents, and Church Fathers
Home page adds a Verbum Blog and a lectionary view and adds the Verbum Logo as below
If you still need a screen shot I will try - have not had much luck posting them to the forum
[maybe someone else will]
0
![http://www.websmileys.com/sm/love/250.gif[/img]](https://community.logos.com/home/leaving?allowTrusted=1&target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websmileys.com%2Fsm%2Flove%2F250.gif%5B%2Fimg%5D){kind=link}