POLL: Would you buy the Zondervan Bible Reference Collection for $.....

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 8:25 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Rosie, That was what I was trying to accomplish with this "POLL: Would you buy the Zondervan Bible Reference Collection for $... "

I wanted to avoid the debate and just get the numbers out there.

Matthew, I think that it was a good idea. And for the most part it has begun to achieve what you set out to achieve.

I have put nothing on prepub because the prepub prices are the regular prices. I will only buy what I really, really want (as already said), about $800 worth. If they want more money from me, they will need to reduce the prices.

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 8:44 PM

All of these prices are over my head.  I have several (certainly not all) of these in Pradis and have never felt that Pradis was a poorly done program.  I will keep what I have and be glad for it.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 4763
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 8:58 PM

Rosie Perera:

Now, that's a really good way to look at it, and an interesting idea! Though I could "afford" to pay the full $2000 for the bundle, I'd certainly prefer not to. I'd already ordered it because (a) I'm lusting after it, and (b) I figure the sooner they reach the number of pre-pub orders they need to make it profitable for them, the sooner they will produce it, and I want it sooner rather than later.

LOL, Rosie...your willingness to be upfront about your "lust" for Zondervan titles is EXACTLY what Z is depending on.  Morris Proctor kind of said a similar thing (not quite as blatantly) at Camp Logos...he's been waiting for this opportunity a "long" time.  It's that "waiting" that is driving many to JUMP at this longed for opportunity, even though it's a deal that could be considerably improved and made less painful for the ones participating.  Did I use the term "kicking and screaming" in my earlier post?  If I didn't, I should have, because that is just how a big publisher like Zondervan will react to not being able to set the terms of the deal.  And believe me, they are used to calling the shots...just ask someone trying to sign a deal with them.  They are convinced that they are the experts.  That's fine...they just don't have to be the experts with any of our money.

I'm not "playing hardball" because I want to...I'm saying what has to be done if the kind of sea change that ought to be taking place in specialty e-book publishing is going to happen.  File sharers forced the issue in music.  But that isn't as big a concern these days (from what I've heard), because the whole paradigm of music delivery finally entered the 21st century.

Another thing that all sides of this issue should consider is this: not that long ago (less than a generation, really), very few people would have been buying the kinds of books Logos sells in the numbers they are today.  Most reader-users of such resources would have had to settle for the access found at their seminaries, or maybe a university or local library.  Today, because of e-books in general (but the phenomena of hyperlinking in particular and the boon that technology provides to researchers), you, I, and literally thousands of others are purchasing multiple multivolume sets.  I often wonder at that...couldn't we all somehow "share" our access to such resources?  That's how it used to happen--a university or seminary would buy a copy each of ICC, WBC, Anchor, etc. and then dozens and hundreds would use that single set.  Now we are buying these things for just ourselves!  No one will ever convince me that the sales figures on these items hasn't increased by a double digit factor.  And yet I have OFTEN found items new on Amazon that were 10-30% lower the Logos's supposedly discounted everyday sales price!

The issue of "value" of usability has theoretical merit (more than one  Logos sales rep has used it on me over the years), but the same could be said for computers, couldn't it?  They are now capable of much more so they should cost more, right?  Wrong!  They are more powerful today than they ever have been, yet the price for laptops has dropped dramatically in the last year.  The point is, e-books (and particularly the historically low volume specialty e-books Logos markets) OUGHT to sell for 80-90% less than their so-called hard copy suggested retail price.  Of course they are easier and more effective to use.  That's exactly WHY they sell each guy and girl his or her own copy, whereas we all used to share one set just a few years ago.  It's not just a litlle, but a LOT absurd for publishers to think they can or should get anything even remotely close to what hard copies sell for.  Utility isn't irrelevant, it's simply WHY they are suddenly selling like hotcakes.  But because of the paradigm shift, the price ought to drop drastically, and VOLUME sales should be the focus.

Because of the peculiar nature of our "business", where history, philosophy, languages foreign and ancient play such a key part in what we do, we desire to have access to a multiplicity of resources at our disposal.  As I told Bob at Camp Logos, I am personally convinced that our current state of hyperlinked resources is very likely the "intended" fulfillment of Daniel's "they shall go to and fro and knowledge shall increase".  Let's not forget, therefore, this one thing: when things are unaffordable, we are collectively robbed of the insight that may have come from those to whom access was denied.  That's just one more reason to go to the "big volume discount" model of WalMart, Costco, and Sam's in the religious e-book business.

I hope the folks  who "call the shots" will hear this argument and won't require "convincing".  But make no mistake, we can convinced them.  There's plenty else in the world to spend money on, especially in an economy where most retailers are doing flips to gain business.

Posts 18669
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 9:57 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Rosie, That was what I was trying to accomplish with this "POLL: Would you buy the Zondervan Bible Reference Collection for $... "

I wanted to avoid the debate and just get the numbers out there.

I guarantee you, 
Zondervan is reading this.
Bob Pritchett, President & CEO of Logos Bible Software is reading this
Dan Pritchett Vice President of Marketing is reading this.
Many others, including competitors, are following the "controversy".

There is probably a more scientific way to conduct a poll. I'm not a pollster. But a quick perusal of the answers posted makes the same point in a more civil tone and with many more voices. What lesson would Zondervan be teaching the mob if we get what we angrily demand? A peacable, non-threatening dialogue is the better way to approach this.

Wow. I don't know how my post could have possibly come across as debating or angry or demanding or threatening. I'm sorry if it did. That was not at all my emotion in posting it. I was trying to be helpful. I love the spirit of this thread and this conversation, and thought I was contributing to it. :-(  I apologize for adding my voice to one who had already diverged from a simple poll that you'd been using this thread for. I guess for that I deserved the scolding. But gee, you sure had me wrong if you thought I was suggesting an angry mob mentality. I was suggesting a collaborative approach that would actually benefit Zondervan and Logos in the long-run. Actually, I can't claim to have had the idea. I was just furthering David's suggestion (which, admittedly, probably didn't belong in this thread).

I know Bob reads this forum, and he's also a fantastic CEO. I too trust that he knows what he's doing with his company.

I was not suggesting arm twisting. Bob is a personal friend of mine. He and I have a relationship going back 15 years or so. We used to work together at Microsoft, and I've been a minor shareholder in the company from the beginning. I know Bob is a busy CEO now, but I do email him from time to time and he appreciates my input and I appreciate his replies.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 10:30 PM

Rosie, I think MC's "hammer" was meant for me.

(Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...Stick out tongue)

Just to be clear, my reference to "pinning" Logos's figurative arm, as the context clearly suggested, was simply a play on the cliche' of crying all the way to the bank.  No one is advocating violence or physical intimidation or hostile takeovers or coups of third world countries.  I have a strict policy that no children or animals be harmed in the course of my posting.

I suppose I type how I talk...and it may not go over well for people who don't know me.  I say things all the time in conversation in the same manner I do here on the forum and no one bats an eye lash, or if they do, it's while doubled over in laughter.  Just remember to use a grain...er, a bag...of salt when reading my posts.

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Joseph Fenton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 10:40 PM

$500 is what I would pay.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 10:49 PM

Removed because it did not really need saying and was off-topic for this thread.
Forgive me for troubling the waters.

Back to the topic: So far It looks like
          $500 everybody is on the bandwagon.
                        $800 is do-able for most.
                                         $1000 is the ceiling (with some falling by the way.)

Let's hear some more.   Big Smile

and thanks to EVERYBODY who has posted so far!

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 687
Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 11:09 PM

I think $1000 for the lot would be fair; as it is there is basically no discount getting the whole lot compared to the sum of its parts...

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 11:26 PM

David Paul:

Rosie, I think MC's "hammer" was meant for me.

(Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...Stick out tongue)

Funny, & True.   (Nothin' but admiration for you, Rosie.)

ὑπερβολή is one of my favorite tools. I just think using it here will lose the attention of those we hope to gain favor with. I'm betting everybody else gets a special deal but my price went up to $3000 for things I have posted this past month.  Zip it!

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 18669
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 11:36 PM

Matthew C Jones:

David Paul:

Rosie, I think MC's "hammer" was meant for me.

(Sorry, I just couldn't help myself...Stick out tongue)

Funny, & True.   (Nothin' but admiration for you, Rosie.)

ὑπερβολή is one of my favorite tools. I just think using it here will lose the attention of those we hope to gain favor with. I'm betting everybody else gets a special deal but my price went up to $3000 for things I have posted this past month.  Zip it!

Oh, whew. I guess I inferred that since you'd quoted my post, you were replying to it. Lame assumption. Glad we're still on friendly terms. :-)

And yes, David's "MC Hammer" pun was very funny.

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 10 2009 11:58 PM

Matthew C Jones:
1) If you have not previously purchased these Zondervan titles; How much would you pay for the Zondervan Collection for an out right NEW purchase?

ZIBCOT, NIVAC and EBC are on my wish list. $2K seems really steep to me. My gut reaction is about $1,000, maybe $1,200.  The truth of the matter is that I will probably only buy a few titles that I really need unless Zondervan decides to run some specials at some point. It's a pity because I really would like to add pretty much all of this to my collection.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2009 12:30 AM

LOL...something just occurred to me.  This thread might should (that's Southern for "might should") be asking two separate but related questions (or is that "related but separate"?):

1ne) "How much do you think the Zondervan collection is worth?"    [Possible answer: "It's worth all the gold of Ophir!'] <---This is what made me laugh.

2wo) "How much would you spend to get the Zondervan collection? $1000?"  [Possible answer: "I can't afford that."] <--- This is what made me stop laughing.

Point being, folks could be answering one question or the other without making a distinction.  Theoretically, I think it's worth the $2000 dollars they want for it, I'll just never buy it at that price, or even slightly below that price.  At $1000, it's a theoretical bargain, but not a practical one.  At $500, I'm downloading the files to my computer.  There's a spread there between $1000 and $500, but you will definitely lose me (and many others) somewhere along the way.

The question people who answer here should respond to is question 2wo...what price would put it in their Library?

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2009 12:46 AM

David Paul:
The question people who answer here should respond to is question 2wo...what price would put it in their Library?

David, that was the whole point of this thread as understood by all those who responded to the original poll

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 11 2009 1:16 AM

Damian McGrath:

David, that was the whole point of this thread as understood by all those who responded to the original poll

Thanks Damian. For those who won't click back to the original POLL  here it is again:

1) If you have not previously purchased these Zondervan titles; How much would YOU pay for the Zondervan Collection for an out right NEW purchase?
OR
2) If you have purchased some of these; Which titles?  and How much would YOU pay to have the whole Zondervan Collection in Logos?

(The second question asks how much of a discounted price you would pay considering you already bought some of these same titles in the Pradis format.)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 12:34 PM

Since I already own all this stuff in Pradis (and I'm not exaggerating )and I already own Logos Platinum I would be willing to pay shipping and handling.  Anything more than that is unreasonable.  If they don't do this I want be purchasing anything else from Zondervan.  Furthermore, I will use my influence (little it may be) to steer others from doing business with them.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 1:59 PM

Richard Crampton:
Since I already own all this stuff in Pradis (and I'm not exaggerating )and I already own Logos Platinum I would be willing to pay shipping and handling.  Anything more than that is unreasonable.

In my case i own Logos portfolio & all things Pradis, so shipping & handling sounds right. However a deep real discount could persuade me to part with some money.

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 637
Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 2:57 PM

There are many resources I would like in the package, however the price tag is light years above my budget for Logos resources... For those of us who do not get a ministry expense for books, software, etc... These purchase can get a little tough...

One thought that would be interesting, though I am not sure that the agreement with Zondervan would allow it, would be to put the collection up on the Community Pricing page with something from a $250 to $2000 range or so.... That would be the ultimate "poll" and would give both Logos and Xondervan the best estimate at where the most sales and income would be realized...

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 9:55 PM

David Paul:
Now we are buying these things for just ourselves!  No one will ever convince me that the sales figures on these items hasn't increased by a double digit factor.

David Paul:
The point is, e-books (and particularly the historically low volume specialty e-books Logos markets) OUGHT to sell for 80-90% less than their so-called hard copy suggested retail price.

Alas, the electronic market is still smaller than the print market. (Amazing, isn't it?) So while production costs on electronic are similar to print (we don't pay for typesetting or paper, but we do much more extensive tagging and data preparation, and we have to "re-invent the printing press" every few years -- i.e. develop the software platform.)

Many of these multi-volume commentary sets sell just a few hundred electronic copies. Yes, we make money, and even a profit, but we're not yet representing double-digit sales increases for most titles. (Though apparently I'll never convince you of that. :-) )

The exception is big collections -- we do sell thousands of copies of things like Scholar's Library, Bible Study Library, etc. So there are economies of scale in those products that differ from the big commentary sets. And, low and behold, we offer exactly the discount you're asking for: books in our base collections are effectively at an 80-90% discount. (Usually 90%.) And when we release new base collections, we usually manage to squeeze a multi-volume commentary set into something.

We want to make as much content as possible available, so we're always trying to come up with creative ways to lower the cost by getting more people to purchase. That's why we try bundles, special collections, and community pricing. It's just hard to get people on board, even for a great deal. Practically speaking, it's easier to get 100 people to spend $1,000 than to get 1,000 to spend $100, or 10,000 to spend $10.

 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 10:24 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Alas, the electronic market is still smaller than the print market. (Amazing, isn't it?) So while production costs on electronic are similar to print (we don't pay for typesetting or paper, but we do much more extensive tagging and data preparation, and we have to "re-invent the printing press" every few years -- i.e. develop the software platform.)

Many of these multi-volume commentary sets sell just a few hundred electronic copies.

...

We want to make as much content as possible available, so we're always trying to come up with creative ways to lower the cost by getting more people to purchase. That's why we try bundles, special collections, and community pricing. It's just hard to get people on board, even for a great deal. Practically speaking, it's easier to get 100 people to spend $1,000 than to get 1,000 to spend $100, or 10,000 to spend $10.

Thanks for letting us know the reality, Bob.

How about a model like what The Teaching Company uses to get more people to buy their products (college-level courses on CD and DVD) at cheaper prices. Each course in their catalogue goes on a deep discount sales (like 70% off) at least once a year. That way they can produce a large quantity of them and pass the savings on to customers, because more people will buy them when they are on sale.

The 12 Days of Logos program will be an interesting experiment. You can see how much the purchase volumes go up when things are on sale.

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JJ Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 13 2009 11:25 PM

Zondervan already announced they were going to do an upgrade path to the new Logos version.  I am hoping FREE.  I, like many others, have the entire Pradis Library.  As much as I would love them in Logos, I wouldn't pay more than $150 to transfer them from Pradis version to Logos version.

 

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