POLL: Would you buy the Zondervan Bible Reference Collection for $.....

One of the most hotly discussed threads on http://community.logos.com/forums/ is
the Zondervan Bible Reference Collection http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5656 coming to Logos format. I would like to try a poll for one purpose only. I would hope to encourage Zondervan (maybe they read these things?) to crunch the numbers and see if it would not be beneficial to Zondervan, Logos, the end-users and Church in general to have massive sales at more affordable prices.

Without ranting, venting, complaining or maligning others, let us answer two simple questions:

1) If you have not previously purchased these Zondervan titles; How much would you pay for the Zondervan Collection for an out right NEW purchase?
OR
2) If you have purchased some of these; Which titles? and How much would you pay to have the whole Zondervan Collection in Logos?

Just give your answers, short & sweet. Then, when they crunch the numbers, maybe they will smile real big and announce a win-win-win-win for Zondervan, Logos, end-users and most of all; the Kingdom. See the following post for my answers. Thank you. I hope it makes a difference.

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Comments

Matthew C Jones

1) I would pay $1000 for the Zondervan Bible Reference Collection as a new purchase in Logos.

2) I already bought:
    Zondervan Scholar Library,
    New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology
    New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis

   I would pay $800 for the Zondervan Bible Reference Collection in Logos.

[:)] Thank you Zondervan for reading.

Damian McGrath

I would pay $1000.

After eliminating the titles I don't really need, I'll probably end up purchasing about $800 worth of Zondervan resources.

Tom Reynolds

1) $800

Rosie Perera

I have purchased, in hardcover:

New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis (NIDOTTE) (5 vols.)
The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Vol. 5 (Psalms, Prov., Ecc., SS)
NIV Application Commentary: Daniel (Tremper Longman); Ecclesiastes/Song of Songs (Iain Provan)
Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary: New Testament (4 vols.)
How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth
How to Read the Bible Book by Book

The other titles I would want to own would be:
The Expositor's Bible Commentary - remaining volumes
New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNT)
NIV Application Commentary - remaining volumes (some are still not available in print: Deut, Ezra-Nehemiah, Job, Psalms vol 2)
Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary: Old Testament
Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible
Africa Bible Commentary
New International Bible Commentary
New International Bible Dictionary
New International Dictionary of the Christian Church
New International Encyclopedia of Bible Characters
New International Encyclopedia of Bible Words

I don't care about anything else in the collection.

I have already taken a big gulp and clicked to order the pre-pub of the whole collection for about $2000. I would much prefer to get it for half that price. Or less.

If I bought all the remaining hardcover books from this collection that I want (individually, from Amazon.com), they would cost me a total of $1929. I don't need them all, but I lust after them. And I might as well get them all. So for the privilege of having them, along with the ones I own already in hardcover, in Logos format, I'd be willing to pay $2000. But like I said, I'd much prefer to get it for less if Zondervan and Logos were amenable. Thanks for spurring me on to do this cost analysis.

spitzerpl

1) If you have not previously purchased these Zondervan titles; How much would you pay for the Zondervan Collection for an out right NEW purchase?
OR

$500 Would tempt me, but I don't know where I would get it. there is still good deal territory above that, but not for my wallet. I might purchase some separately, though.

Steve Burrow

1) I will not purchase the 'collection' for $2000. I just can’t afford that price for Items I really don’t need or want (like most of the monographs in the collection). IF the collection were closer to $1200, I might be able to afford that, and be willing to pay for additional resources I would like, but not right now.

2) I don't own any of these currently

So what do I plan to do?

I do plan, and will try, to purchase these items separately, in the following order ($790 total):

Expositor's Bible Commentary - $130
NIV Application Commentary (OT&NT) - $ 380
Encyclopedia of the Bible - $280

I’d like to have the following, but don't plan to purchase, especially in the near future ($740 total):

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology - $130
New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis - $ 200
Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary: OT&NT - $410

Bohuslav Wojnar

$500 Would tempt me

Yes, me to [:)] 2000 is beyond my horizon. I ordered some individual series and resources (too many actually [:(] )

Mark Barnes

I've pre-ordered about $800 worth of Zondervan resources. I'd like (for example) the Bible Background Commentaries, which are WAY over-priced. Zondervan don't appear to have realised that what makes those books expensive is that it's full-colour throughough, printed on a heavy gloss. Therefore we should EXPECT not to have to absorb those costs on an electronic edition.

Anyway, the question becomes how much more than $800 would I pay to add a bunch of books I don't really need but perhaps might become useful at some point. The answer is not very much. Certainly no more than $1,000 total.

Dan

$500 would be tempting, but anything over that is out of my price range.

Roger King

I LOVE Zondervan's printed resources, and would eagerly add them to my library. Alas, $2000 is way to much for my tiny wallet. [:(] It will probably always remain a dream (until they add them all in a $400 collection sometime - Hint Hint Nudge Nudge Wink Wink!)

Joel Thomas

I have already ordered them on pre-pub and I have no problem paying $2000 dollars for them but it would be nice if they gave those of us who paid for the pradis versions some sort of discount but even if they don't will still be buying the pre-pubs those resources are just too valuable to pass up.

Rev. Dr. Aaron Kesson

1) If you have not previously purchased these Zondervan titles; How much would you pay for the Zondervan Collection for an out right NEW purchase?

I would pay no more than $1000 because it is all I can afford. Like someone else said, there are things included that I would not necessarily "need" , but may prove beneficial later on.

Keith Larson

I don’t see where there is much incentive to pre-order. There is not much of a discount and it sounds like Zondervan is going to be offering their own boxed collections of these resources, which historically have been heavily discounted on the internet. It is just like the pre-pubs of the Nelson collections, you can typically find them much cheaper on the internet, than you can from pre-ordering from Logos.

In light of this, the discount would have to be in the 40% range to tempt me.

BillS

2) If you have purchased some of these; Which titles? and How much would you pay to have the whole Zondervan Collection in Logos?

I've purchased EBC. Was given another title or 2 by Z but no longer have access to them (or to the newer version of Pradis they came with). Ended up at present with just the EBC.

As solo pastor of a small church, I no longer have the means to make large Logos purchases. If it's more than $50 to upgrade EBC to Logos, I probably won't even do that.

Blessings!

Bill

David Paul

In another post in another thread, I asked the question: If you had 100 Logos users in a room, how many will be buying the Z collection at $2000? Five? Drop the price to $500. Now how many will buy it? 25-50? Let's keep in mind that 100-200 lbs. of paper isn't changing hands here. Is it better to sell 1 collection at $2000 or sell 4 collections at $500? I argue that the latter is preferred...because it builds up the user base of those who are using and quoting the resources in the collection. That in turn gives those who encounter the increased number of Zondervan references a reason to purchase the titles, ESPECIALLY in e-format where hotlinks provide immediate gratification. Let's look again at the scenario, because it isn't a question of 1 @ $2000 vs. 4 @ $500 (a wash revenue wise)...it's 5 @ $2000 vs. 25 (minimum) @ $500. In other words $10,000 vs. $12,500...nothing to sneeze at. It's $10k vs. $20k if forty people snap up the 75% off deal...me being one of them.

"Would" I buy it for $1000 or $800? Maybe...it's technically a "fair" price...but that's getting to be pretty stiff, and I have a Portfolio to pay off. I would find a way to come up with $500 though...especially if it was less than $50 a month.

But will any of these scenarios ever see the light of day? Not when people are already pledging themselves to pay the nosebleed price of $2k. Without taking the step of advocating a boycott, simply holding off or cancelling your PrePub will get some attention. We spend our money on all kinds of things...and they sell books. One needs the other far more in this scenario. And it's kind of like the music business; music companies had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the mp3 generation, but it's de rigueur now. The music buying public simply demanded it. We can demand what I'm suggesting as well. Besides, I'm not saying they're going to have to take their lumps...I'm saying their going to have to "forced" to count higher profits.

They don't see that now...but we can make them see it.

Oh, btw, this goes for other publishers as well. Even Logos, who is to be highly commended for the value that is their base packages (Portfolio owner here), could do much more along these lines. I'm suggesting meaty packages that include NOTHING found in base packages and are also ridiculously good deals. Perhaps even a "Make Your Own Package" deal, where the % off increases as the dollar amount increases. As far as the effect that would have on PrePubs, I would be willing to pay today (on installment) for packages that were 50% available today with the promise that the other 50% were in production (Hastings Encyclopedia & Dictionary, for instance). I trust Logos (I trust Bob's commitment to CS) enough to provide that kind of cover for their expenses. If we put a little pressure on them, I suspect, with their arm pinned behind their back, they would cry all the way to the bank. But these should be the SAME kinds of values that the base packages are...since only deep discounts dig deeply into my pockets. Anything less...not so much.

Now I'm going to take my coupon and go to Hardee's for dinner. Without the coupon, I'd be staying home.

MJ. Smith

I have interest in only a handful of the books - I am more apt to purchase them individually or in a small collection. My eye is already on two collections near the upper limit of my resources.

Rosie Perera

In another post in another thread, I asked the question: If you had 100 Logos users in a room, how many will be buying the Z collection at $2000? Five? Drop the price to $500. Now how many will buy it? 25-50? Let's keep in mind that 100-200 lbs. of paper isn't changing hands here. Is it better to sell 1 collection at $2000 or sell 4 collections at $500? I argue that the latter is preferred...because it builds up the user base of those who are using and quoting the resources in the collection. That in turn gives those who encounter the increased number of Zondervan references a reason to purchase the titles, ESPECIALLY in e-format where hotlinks provide immediate gratification. Let's look again at the scenario, because it isn't a question of 1 @ $2000 vs. 4 @ $500 (a wash revenue wise)...it's 5 @ $2000 vs. 25 (minimum) @ $500. In other words $10,000 vs. $12,500...nothing to sneeze at. It's $10k vs. $20k if forty people snap up the 75% off deal...me being one of them.

But will any of these scenarios ever see the light of day? Not when people are already pledging themselves to pay the nosebleed price of $2k. Without taking the step of advocating a boycott, simply holding off or cancelling your PrePub will get some attention.

Now, that's a really good way to look at it, and an interesting idea! Though I could "afford" to pay the full $2000 for the bundle, I'd certainly prefer not to. I'd already ordered it because (a) I'm lusting after it, and (b) I figure the sooner they reach the number of pre-pub orders they need to make it profitable for them, the sooner they will produce it, and I want it sooner rather than later. But I agree with your logic, David, and I feel for the folks who can't afford it. And I'm willing to cancel my PrePub if that would help. I'm not sure it will, though. This thread needs to be brought to Bob's attention, and he and Zondervan need to be convinced of the validity of your estimate of how many people would buy it at the lower price point.

If we could find out how many people have signed up on the pre-pub already at the current price (I'd leave my order in for the time being) and do an informal pre-pub order poll here with a hypothetical price of $500, and demonstrate to Logos & Zondervan that at least 4x as many people would order it if it were 1/4 the price, then maybe we'd get somewhere. They'd see that it would be a win-win situation for them. They have already signed a contract, though, which might have legal implications that are beyond our knowledge. It might be difficult or costly (lawyers' fees) for them to renegotiate the contract. Or we might find out that David's guesses were wrong and that the enthusiasm for it just isn't enough higher at the lower price (however, maybe the forum won't reach everybody who might buy it at 75% off). But it's certainly worth trying!

We'd need Bob or some other Logos insider to find out for us how many pre-pub orders have come in thus far. If none of the above reply here, then I'd email Bob about it.

Matthew C Jones

Paul, I really wish we had kept this in the other thread. It is just as visible there and a bit off-topic here (addressing other than Zondervan.) That being said:

I'm suggesting meaty packages that include NOTHING found in base packages and are also ridiculously good deals. Perhaps even a "Make Your Own Package" deal, where the % off increases as the dollar amount increases.

Now the "Make Your Own Package" deal is the best idea you've suggested. That would address the many differences we all seem to have. I am absolutely tickled with the makeup of the Portfolio package. Some users were not interested enough to buy it.

I trust Bob Pritchett too. I trust him enough to allow him to run his company without twisting his arm.

So enjoy dinner at Hardee's. I ate a 28 cent package of Ramen noodles for supper. (I saw some more Pre-Pubs I am willing to sacrifice for. [:P] )

Matthew C Jones

If we could find out how many people have signed up on the pre-pub already at the current price (I'd leave my order in for the time being) and do an informal pre-pub order poll here with a hypothetical price of $500, and demonstrate to Logos & Zondervan that at least 4x as many people would order it if it were 1/4 the price, then maybe we'd get somewhere. They'd see that it would be a win-win situation for them. They have already signed a contract, though, which might have legal implications that are beyond our knowledge. It might be difficult or costly (lawyers' fees) for them to renegotiate the contract. Or we might find out that David's guesses were wrong and that the enthusiasm for it just isn't enough higher at the lower price (however, maybe the forum won't reach everybody who might buy it at 75% off). But it's certainly worth trying!

We'd need Bob or some other Logos insider to find out for us how many pre-pub orders have come in thus far. If none of the above reply here, then I'd email Bob about it.

Rosie, That was what I was trying to accomplish with this "POLL: Would you buy the Zondervan Bible Reference Collection for $... "

I wanted to avoid the debate and just get the numbers out there.

I guarantee you,
Zondervan is reading this.
Bob Pritchett, President & CEO of Logos Bible Software is reading this
Dan Pritchett Vice President of Marketing is reading this.
Many others, including competitors, are following the "controversy".

There is probably a more scientific way to conduct a poll. I'm not a pollster. But a quick perusal of the answers posted makes the same point in a more civil tone and with many more voices. What lesson would Zondervan be teaching the mob if we get what we angrily demand? A peacable, non-threatening dialogue is the better way to approach this.

Floyd Johnson

All of these prices are over my head. I have several (certainly not all) of these in Pradis and have never felt that Pradis was a poorly done program. I will keep what I have and be glad for it.

Blessings,

Floyd

David Paul

Now, that's a really good way to look at it, and an interesting idea! Though I could "afford" to pay the full $2000 for the bundle, I'd certainly prefer not to. I'd already ordered it because (a) I'm lusting after it, and (b) I figure the sooner they reach the number of pre-pub orders they need to make it profitable for them, the sooner they will produce it, and I want it sooner rather than later.

LOL, Rosie...your willingness to be upfront about your "lust" for Zondervan titles is EXACTLY what Z is depending on. Morris Proctor kind of said a similar thing (not quite as blatantly) at Camp Logos...he's been waiting for this opportunity a "long" time. It's that "waiting" that is driving many to JUMP at this longed for opportunity, even though it's a deal that could be considerably improved and made less painful for the ones participating. Did I use the term "kicking and screaming" in my earlier post? If I didn't, I should have, because that is just how a big publisher like Zondervan will react to not being able to set the terms of the deal. And believe me, they are used to calling the shots...just ask someone trying to sign a deal with them. They are convinced that they are the experts. That's fine...they just don't have to be the experts with any of our money.

I'm not "playing hardball" because I want to...I'm saying what has to be done if the kind of sea change that ought to be taking place in specialty e-book publishing is going to happen. File sharers forced the issue in music. But that isn't as big a concern these days (from what I've heard), because the whole paradigm of music delivery finally entered the 21st century.

Another thing that all sides of this issue should consider is this: not that long ago (less than a generation, really), very few people would have been buying the kinds of books Logos sells in the numbers they are today. Most reader-users of such resources would have had to settle for the access found at their seminaries, or maybe a university or local library. Today, because of e-books in general (but the phenomena of hyperlinking in particular and the boon that technology provides to researchers), you, I, and literally thousands of others are purchasing multiple multivolume sets. I often wonder at that...couldn't we all somehow "share" our access to such resources? That's how it used to happen--a university or seminary would buy a copy each of ICC, WBC, Anchor, etc. and then dozens and hundreds would use that single set. Now we are buying these things for just ourselves! No one will ever convince me that the sales figures on these items hasn't increased by a double digit factor. And yet I have OFTEN found items new on Amazon that were 10-30% lower the Logos's supposedly discounted everyday sales price!

The issue of "value" of usability has theoretical merit (more than one Logos sales rep has used it on me over the years), but the same could be said for computers, couldn't it? They are now capable of much more so they should cost more, right? Wrong! They are more powerful today than they ever have been, yet the price for laptops has dropped dramatically in the last year. The point is, e-books (and particularly the historically low volume specialty e-books Logos markets) OUGHT to sell for 80-90% less than their so-called hard copy suggested retail price. Of course they are easier and more effective to use. That's exactly WHY they sell each guy and girl his or her own copy, whereas we all used to share one set just a few years ago. It's not just a litlle, but a LOT absurd for publishers to think they can or should get anything even remotely close to what hard copies sell for. Utility isn't irrelevant, it's simply WHY they are suddenly selling like hotcakes. But because of the paradigm shift, the price ought to drop drastically, and VOLUME sales should be the focus.

Because of the peculiar nature of our "business", where history, philosophy, languages foreign and ancient play such a key part in what we do, we desire to have access to a multiplicity of resources at our disposal. As I told Bob at Camp Logos, I am personally convinced that our current state of hyperlinked resources is very likely the "intended" fulfillment of Daniel's "they shall go to and fro and knowledge shall increase". Let's not forget, therefore, this one thing: when things are unaffordable, we are collectively robbed of the insight that may have come from those to whom access was denied. That's just one more reason to go to the "big volume discount" model of WalMart, Costco, and Sam's in the religious e-book business.

I hope the folks who "call the shots" will hear this argument and won't require "convincing". But make no mistake, we can convinced them. There's plenty else in the world to spend money on, especially in an economy where most retailers are doing flips to gain business.

Donovan R. Palmer

1) If you have not previously purchased these Zondervan titles; How much would you pay for the Zondervan Collection for an out right NEW purchase?

ZIBCOT, NIVAC and EBC are on my wish list. $2K seems really steep to me. My gut reaction is about $1,000, maybe $1,200. The truth of the matter is that I will probably only buy a few titles that I really need unless Zondervan decides to run some specials at some point. It's a pity because I really would like to add pretty much all of this to my collection.

David Paul

LOL...something just occurred to me. This thread might should (that's Southern for "might should") be asking two separate but related questions (or is that "related but separate"?):

1ne) "How much do you think the Zondervan collection is worth?" [Possible answer: "It's worth all the gold of Ophir!'] <---This is what made me laugh.

2wo) "How much would you spend to get the Zondervan collection? $1000?" [Possible answer: "I can't afford that."] <--- This is what made me stop laughing.

Point being, folks could be answering one question or the other without making a distinction. Theoretically, I think it's worth the $2000 dollars they want for it, I'll just never buy it at that price, or even slightly below that price. At $1000, it's a theoretical bargain, but not a practical one. At $500, I'm downloading the files to my computer. There's a spread there between $1000 and $500, but you will definitely lose me (and many others) somewhere along the way.

The question people who answer here should respond to is question 2wo...what price would put it in their Library?

Damian McGrath

The question people who answer here should respond to is question 2wo...what price would put it in their Library?

David, that was the whole point of this thread as understood by all those who responded to the original poll

Matthew C Jones

David, that was the whole point of this thread as understood by all those who responded to the original poll

Thanks Damian. For those who won't click back to the original POLL here it is again:

1) If you have not previously purchased these Zondervan titles; How much would YOU pay for the Zondervan Collection for an out right NEW purchase?
OR
2) If you have purchased some of these; Which titles? and How much would YOU pay to have the whole Zondervan Collection in Logos?

(The second question asks how much of a discounted price you would pay considering you already bought some of these same titles in the Pradis format.)

Bob Schlessman

1 - $500 would be tempting, but anything above that is out of my budget.

Donovan R. Palmer

Well, one thing for sure, it is going to be interesting to see how Zondervan does in branching out into the digital market on other platforms. At this stage it feels like they're saying "ok, you can have our stuff in Libronix format, but at a price". If users don't buy into it on large scale, will they decide there is a lack of demand or will they consider that they need to relook at the the price points for their collections. For example, to buy the whole collection on pre-pub is not that much savings over buying individual sets. It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out.

Steven Yu

For those people who decide to purchase the pre-publications, the release date have just been released - 4/5/2010

Time for some serious budgeting, and skip few more lunch :-)

Rosie Perera

The price has recently dropped by $200 to $1799.95. I guess Logos and Zondervan listened to us. It's not the $500 that many of us were wanting, but it's a change for the better anyway.

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5656

Mike Childs

I want the NIVAC commentaries, the Expositors Bible Commentary, Colin Brown's Dictionary of New Testament Theology. Indeed, I will buy these which come to a little more than $600 individually in pre-pub.

There are one or two others that I would like, but can live without.

So I guess that I would be willing to pay about $700 for the lot. Of course, they are worth more than that, but not to me.

Mike Childs

The make your own package at a certain % discount - with a minimum order - would make a lot of sense to me. Might be an experiment worth Logos' time in trying.

Matthew C Jones

I guess Logos and Zondervan listened to us. It's not the $500 that many of us were wanting, but it's a change for the better anyway.

Not really. Over the years I have learned NOT to register a product unless it is required for functionality. I have a bunch of unregistered Zondervan product that is still is worthless towards a crossgrade to Logos format. Zondervan could have honored any never registered product towards crossgrades but they didn't.
I can give them all the blank cards & numbers but I suspect they have my mugshot on a dartboard in their break room.
You see, I got tired of software companies selling my name & demographics to others for money.Even now, I use trash email accounts for many "registrations" with creative spellings to track which so called "privacy policies" are not really honored.

Brooks Cochran

I own the follow in Pradis:

EBC; NIDNTT; NIDOTT; Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary: New Testament and the NIV Application Commentary: New Testament. To be honest I can't see myself buying these for any price or at least for now. I have been a Logos user since 1993. I have to remind myself that I own Pradis and hit the "Alt-Tab" keys to go between programs. I also, not to upset anyone, have to ask myself what are they worth to me at any price in Logos format. Will I use them? or Do I find all I need from the TJL, Baker books, IVP Reference Books I own under Logos?

Rosie Perera

I guess Logos and Zondervan listened to us. It's not the $500 that many of us were wanting, but it's a change for the better anyway.
Not really. Over the years I have learned NOT to register a product unless it is required for functionality. I have a bunch of unregistered Zondervan product that is still is worthless towards a crossgrade to Logos format. Zondervan could have honored any never registered product towards crossgrades but they didn't.
I can give them all the blank cards & numbers but I suspect they have my mugshot on a dartboard in their break room.
You see, I got tired of software companies selling my name & demographics to others for money.Even now, I use trash email accounts for many "registrations" with creative spellings to track which so called "privacy policies" are not really honored.

I never register software either. I didn't say anything about registering. I meant that perhaps all the voices here on this forum about how the price was too high got conveyed to Zondervan by the Logos folks and they relented and lowered it a teeny bit. Not enough, but all I meant was that perhaps they were listening....somewhat. (Also my comment didn't apply to people trying to crossgrade to this bundle from Pradis; I never had Pradis before, so for me and others like me we're looking at what was a $2000 price tag, and now it's $1800, and having to weigh whether that's worth it to us.)

Mike W

I guess Logos and Zondervan listened to us. It's not the $500 that many of us were wanting, but it's a change for the better anyway.
Not really. Over the years I have learned NOT to register a product unless it is required for functionality. I have a bunch of unregistered Zondervan product that is still is worthless towards a crossgrade to Logos format. Zondervan could have honored any never registered product towards crossgrades but they didn't.
I can give them all the blank cards & numbers but I suspect they have my mugshot on a dartboard in their break room.
You see, I got tired of software companies selling my name & demographics to others for money.Even now, I use trash email accounts for many "registrations" with creative spellings to track which so called "privacy policies" are not really honored.

I did register my Pradis software but Logos said I was not in the database that Zondervan sent (not Logos fault on this). Customer Service at Zondervan said that they had a number of Pradis users that somehow were left out of the database. They asked for some basic information about the purchase and said that they were advising Logos to provide the discounts to the people who had contacted them. They responded quickly to my request for help and were very courteous. You might get a better response than you expect form Zondervan if you give them a call.