Make the ESV Reverse Interlinear available for purchase outside of the base packages

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Posts 26
Richard Hendricks | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jun 11 2009 11:27 AM

Please!  Pretty Please!!!

Posts 134
Esther Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 8:58 AM

I vote for this, too.  The most basic package that also contains these Interlinear resources has tons of stuff I already have and don't want to pay to duplicate.  The next package up contains tons of stuff I will never use.  The Scholar's library, which is the one closest to what I really would be willing to pay money for and also contains the interlinear resources is so very expensive that I despair of ever having enough money to purchase it.

Please make the ESV Reverse Interlinear available for purchase outside of the base packages.

Esther

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 9:10 AM

EstherJones:

I vote for this, too.  The most basic package that also contains these Interlinear resources has tons of stuff I already have and don't want to pay to duplicate.  The next package up contains tons of stuff I will never use.  The Scholar's library, which is the one closest to what I really would be willing to pay money for and also contains the interlinear resources is so very expensive that I despair of ever having enough money to purchase it.

Please make the ESV Reverse Interlinear available for purchase outside of the base packages.

Esther

I read your other post and don't wish to be unkind.  I understand that not everyone is going to be, or even should be, a scholar of the biblical text.  I do, however, have extremely strong feelings regarding such items as interlinears and Strong's numbers.  If you don't know Greek or Hebrew, looking at an interlinear or at the glosses in Strong's isn't really going to improve your understanding one iota.  I would recommend that you skip the interlinears and Strongs and instead opt for some good commentaries.  Otherwise, all that will happen is that you will say, "Oh, that's what the word looks like that is translated . . ."  What have you really gained?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 10:25 AM

I think Esther and Richard have a point of view that is valid.  Although I have the Scholar's gold package and have it, a friend of mine would really benefit from having the ESV reverse interlinear and she cannot afford the expense to upgrade and would simply like to include this resource and use it as she chooses.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 10:31 AM

JoanKorte:

I think Esther and Richard have a point of view that is valid.  Although I have the Scholar's gold package and have it, a friend of mine would really benefit from having the ESV reverse interlinear and she cannot afford the expense to upgrade and would simply like to include this resource and use it as she chooses.

Again, why?  Does she know the language?  If not, is she going to learn anything other than what the word LOOKS LIKE?  If she wants a translation, look at a translation; look at 100 translations if that helps.  But why look at the form of the letters in the original?  Simply so you'll know what they look like?  For a gloss?  You get that in the translation.  If you want to understand the original words, that takes WORK, more work than the average layman is willing to expend.  Get some good commentaries.  Not commentaries which all state your own understanding, but commentaries which disagree with one another.  Demand of them that they support their position, but beware of "outliers" which are positions which are radically different from all others.  Outliers can end up being correct, but the burden of proof lies especially heavy on them.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 12:05 PM

George, I value your scholarship tremendously and love your sense of humor, too.  What I am trying to do is to find points to agree with others who post on this forum.  Particularly those who seem new to me.  It is my way of encouraging them.   So, "Why?" (and I do not want to turn this into any type of debate, at all) their point of view is valid to me because it is their point of view.  IMHO.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 12:44 PM

I must agree with George here. An Interlinear is one of the very worst Bible study tools ever invented. It makes the student imagine that he/she can read Greek or Hebrew when in actuality all they are doing is reading the English gloss and looking at the Hebrew or Greek characters.

Jack

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 1:06 PM

JackCaviness:
An Interlinear is one of the very worst Bible study tools ever invented. It makes the student imagine that he/she can read Greek or Hebrew when in actuality all they are doing is reading the English gloss and looking at the Hebrew or Greek characters.

A regular interlinear perhaps, but the reverse interlinear doesn't provide an English gloss, rather it's an actual translation as the primary text with the associated Greek words along side.  So the point there isn't to pretend you're reading Greek (or whatever), but to provide an easy way to access original language resources from an English translation--the underlying Greek can be keylinked to BDAG or TDNT.  Of course, if one thinks that original language resources shouldn't be used without formal training then one would still find the reverse interlinear invalid.  But that view would also invalidate much of what Logos has to offer.

 

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Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 1:21 PM

Todd Phillips:

JackCaviness:
An Interlinear is one of the very worst Bible study tools ever invented. It makes the student imagine that he/she can read Greek or Hebrew when in actuality all they are doing is reading the English gloss and looking at the Hebrew or Greek characters.

A regular interlinear perhaps, but the reverse interlinear doesn't provide an English gloss, rather it's an actual translation as the primary text with the associated Greek words along side.  So the point there isn't to pretend you're reading Greek (or whatever), but to provide an easy way to access original language resources from an English translation--the underlying Greek can be keylinked to BDAG or TDNT.  Of course, if one thinks that original language resources shouldn't be used without formal training then one would still find the reverse interlinear invalid.  But that view would also invalidate much of what Logos has to offer.

 

"Gloss" is a term used to designate whatever word is used to translate a term from another language.  This is opposed to a definition which is a more extended account of its meaning.  ALL translations have glosses.  In fact, translations generally are a whole series of glosses.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 1:43 PM

George Somsel:
"Gloss" is a term used to designate whatever word is used to translate a term from another language.  This is opposed to a definition which is a more extended account of its meaning.  ALL translations have glosses.  In fact, translations generally are a whole series of glosses.

Perhaps in a strict sense, but in the context of this discussion, the contrast is between using a real translation in the reverse interlinear and reading the wooden, non-contextual "glosses" in non-English word order found in a regular interlinear.   That's was my point.

(Besides, isn't it a bit simplistic to think of translations as just a series of glosses when there isn't a 1:1 word correspondence and they are translating idioms and thoughts as well as words.)

 

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Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 2:42 PM

Todd Phillips:

(Besides, isn't it a bit simplistic to think of translations as just a series of glosses when there isn't a 1:1 word correspondence and they are translating idioms and thoughts as well as words.)

Perhaps slightly, but only slightly.  People still go on and on and on and ... about Strong's numbers when all they give you are the glosses used in the AV [AKA: KJV].  Regardless of the form it takes sg/pl, nom/obj, pres/past it's still the same word even though it gets prettied up in the translation.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 3:04 PM

George Somsel:
Get some good commentaries.  Not commentaries which all state your own understanding,

Why should one defend their reason for requiring a particular purchase, or having something unbundled? Or have to spend large amounts of money because it suits someone else's method of working? A few good lexicons is far better value than expensive commentary sets. I value the NET Bible notes esp. for Hebrew and a few other translations, together with lexicons and interlinears to grasp the understanding of a particular passage. The recent NICOTine debate was interesting, and I bet I could find as much diversity or conformity in several inexpensive lexicons!

 

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 3:42 PM

George Somsel:
Regardless of the form it takes sg/pl, nom/obj, pres/past it's still the same word even though it gets prettied up in the translation.

So, in your view, there's no difference between reading an actual translation and reading the "gloss" line in a standard interlinear?

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Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 3:44 PM

Dave Hooton:

George Somsel:
Get some good commentaries.  Not commentaries which all state your own understanding,

Why should one defend their reason for requiring a particular purchase, or having something unbundled? Or have to spend large amounts of money because it suits someone else's method of working? A few good lexicons is far better value than expensive commentary sets. I value the NET Bible notes esp. for Hebrew and a few other translations, together with lexicons and interlinears to grasp the understanding of a particular passage. The recent NICOTine debate was interesting, and I bet I could find as much diversity or conformity in several inexpensive lexicons!

 

Lexica are good if they deal adequately with words, and normally I might suggest them; however, it is not true that simply because a gloss appears in a lexicon that it is the proper understanding of a Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic word in the particular context in which it is found.  I'm reminded of a version [Amplified?] which as a series of different words which might be used so the reader can more or less construct his own translation.  This is inviting disaster.  I remember a joke when I was in grad school regarding Arabic having 4 meanings for every word:  Normal, opposite, sexual reference and something about a camel.  This is a tad exaggerated, but every language has a number of different usages for most words.  Unless you are willing to take the time to really examine the lexicon entry (or perhaps use the reference browser to see if the passage you are studying is listed in the entry and how it is classified) you're basically throwing darts at the board.  This is why I suggested a commentary.  If it is a decent commentary, the author has some knowledge of how the words are used.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 4:13 PM

Todd Phillips:

George Somsel:
Regardless of the form it takes sg/pl, nom/obj, pres/past it's still the same word even though it gets prettied up in the translation.

So, in your view, there's no difference between reading an actual translation and reading the "gloss" line in a standard interlinear?

Compare for yourself

6 Jacob’s well was there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jn 4:6). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
6     Jacob’s   well   was   there;   so   Jesus,   wearied   as
δὲ2 τοῦ5 Ἰακώβ6 πηγὴ4 ἦν1 ἐκεῖ3 οὖν8 7 Ἰησοῦς9 κεκοπιακὼς10
δέ  Ἰακώβ πηγή εἰμί ἐκεῖ οὖν  Ἰησοῦς κοπιάω  
C RGSMNGSM NNSF VF3SIIA D C RNSMNNSM VPNSMRA  
1161 35882384 4077 1510 1563 3767 35882424 2872  
  he   was   from   his   journey,   was   sitting   beside  
ἐκ11 τῆς12 ὁδοιπορίας13 ἐκαθέζετο14 οὕτως15 ἐπὶ16
    ἐκ    ὁδοιπορία   καθέζομαι οὕτως ἐπί
    EG   RGSFNGSF   VF3SIID DED
    1537   35883597   2516 37791909
the   well.   It   was   about   the   sixth   hour.      
τῇ17 πηγῇ18 ἦν20 ὡς21 ἕκτη22 ὥρα19  
πηγή   εἰμί ὡς   ἕκτος ὥρα  
RDSF NDSF   VF3SIIA T   MNSF NNSF  
3588 4077   1510 5613   1623 5610  
Schwandt, J., & Collins, C. J. (2006; 2006). The ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament (Jn 4:6). Logos Research Systems, Inc.
Do you see any difference?  As the margarine ad says, "No dif-fê-rence."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1674
Paul Golder | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 4:42 PM

George Somsel:

Compare for yourself

6 Jacob’s well was there; so Jesus, wearied as he was from his journey, was sitting beside the well. It was about the sixth hour.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Jn 4:6). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
6     Jacob’s   well   was   there;   so   Jesus,   wearied   as
δὲ2 τοῦ5 Ἰακώβ6 πηγὴ4 ἦν1 ἐκεῖ3 οὖν8 7 Ἰησοῦς9 κεκοπιακὼς10
δέ  Ἰακώβ πηγή εἰμί ἐκεῖ οὖν  Ἰησοῦς κοπιάω  
C RGSMNGSM NNSF VF3SIIA D C RNSMNNSM VPNSMRA  
1161 35882384 4077 1510 1563 3767 35882424 2872  
  he   was   from   his   journey,   was   sitting   beside  
ἐκ11 τῆς12 ὁδοιπορίας13 ἐκαθέζετο14 οὕτως15 ἐπὶ16
    ἐκ    ὁδοιπορία   καθέζομαι οὕτως ἐπί
    EG   RGSFNGSF   VF3SIID DED
    1537   35883597   2516 37791909
the   well.   It   was   about   the   sixth   hour.      
τῇ17 πηγῇ18 ἦν20 ὡς21 ἕκτη22 ὥρα19  
πηγή   εἰμί ὡς   ἕκτος ὥρα  
RDSF NDSF   VF3SIIA T   MNSF NNSF  
3588 4077   1510 5613   1623 5610  
Schwandt, J., & Collins, C. J. (2006; 2006). The ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament (Jn 4:6). Logos Research Systems, Inc.
Do you see any difference?  As the margarine ad says, "No dif-fê-rence."

So that's the Greek word John used for "sitting". Now it all makes sense...Wink

 

"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."

Posts 134
Esther Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 4:50 PM

George;

The reason I so wanted the reverse interlinears was due in large part to the fact that in working with the video tutorials that particular reference is used several times as an example...so in my mind it looks as if it's one of the reference resources everyone who uses Logos must use constantly.  Heck, I wanna know what I'm missing!

Maybe it's really not for me, but because of it's prominence in the tutorials, I wanted the chance to get it.  And here's another question:  why in the world is almost every other important resource included in my program except THAT (out of the basic package)?  That's actually a question that supports your argument:  whoever made the list of references I bought realized a person like me wouldn't be benefited by that--but then, if that's so, why is it used to illustrate, for instance, key-linking in the video tutorials?

I appreciate and will always appreciate your (or anyone's) effort to educate me.  I also appreciate those who defended my point of view:  I do have a right to it, even if it is an uneducated one.

Looking at the examples here in this thread makes me wonder if indeed it is something on which I'd like to spend my money.  So perhaps bundling it is wiser than I originally realized.

Still, I would like to point out that if I had had the chance to purchase those, then realized that they were of no use to me unless I studied the original languages myself, it might have spurred me on to greater efforts in that direction.  And surely that's a good thing.

Esther

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 4:59 PM

George Somsel:
Get some good commentaries.  Not commentaries which all state your own understanding,

Why should one defend their reason for requiring a particular purchase, or having something unbundled? Or have to spend large amounts of money because it suits someone else's method of working? A few good lexicons is far better value than expensive commentary sets. I value the NET Bible notes esp. for Hebrew and a few other translations, together with lexicons and interlinears to grasp the understanding of a particular passage. The recent NICOTine debate was interesting, and I bet I could find as much diversity or conformity in several inexpensive lexicons!

 

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 5:05 PM

EstherJones:

Still, I would like to point out that if I had had the chance to purchase those, then realized that they were of no use to me unless I studied the original languages myself, it might have spurred me on to greater efforts in that direction.  And surely that's a good thing.

Esther

I would agree that having an impetus to learn the original languages is a good thing, but I should point out that it is a lengthy path which involves much work if one is to attain any proficiency.  If one doesn't gain at least a certain level of proficiency then the effort may not be totally wasted, but it isn't all that productive. 

A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or touch not the Pierian spring;
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.

Alexander Pope
An Essay on Criticism

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2009 5:20 PM

Dave Hooton:

George Somsel:
Get some good commentaries.  Not commentaries which all state your own understanding,

Why should one defend their reason for requiring a particular purchase, or having something unbundled? Or have to spend large amounts of money because it suits someone else's method of working? A few good lexicons is far better value than expensive commentary sets. I value the NET Bible notes esp. for Hebrew and a few other translations, together with lexicons and interlinears to grasp the understanding of a particular passage. The recent NICOTine debate was interesting, and I bet I could find as much diversity or conformity in several inexpensive lexicons!

 

In inexpensive lexica?  Probably.  There are a limited number of lexica which are worth having:

1. BDAG or Louw-Nida for NT (You really ought to have BDAG whether you have Louw-Nida or not)
2. HALOT or BDB for OT
3. LSJ to supplement #1
4. Targum Lexicon for peanut butter sandwiches Big Smile
5. Lust for some LXX use
6. Glosses for the Qumran sectarian Manuscripts

With anything else, you're wasting your time. [It would be nice to have Jastrow -- I have it in many PDF files]

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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