Göttingen Septuagint (65 Vols.)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 9:54 AM

David Knoll:
Natalio Fernandez Marcos' "The Septuagint in Context" now included in "The Brill Septuagint Collection" of Logos gives a very thorough discussion of this as does Jellicoe's magnificent book: "The Septuagint and Modern Study" (OUP, 1968)    
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That is nice to know. I was happy to see the Brill collections hit the Pre-Pub page. I know Brill publishes fine academic titles but even at the discounted Pre-Pub prices, they are expensive. It is knowing information like this that helps me justify the expense. Here are the Brill collections upcoming in Logos:

Brill Septuagint Studies Collection (2 Vols.)  http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6626
Brill Philo Studies Collection (2 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/7081
Brill Josephus and History Collection (2 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6833
Brill Josephus and the Bible Collection (4 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6878
Brill Syriac and Scripture Collection (2 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/7246

This really renews my excitement over the Göttingen Septuagint (65 Vols.) I thought I was going to miss out completely but Dan made it possible. I find the Septuagint fascinating but I am quite a novice. It is good of you to share with us David. Now I have to save for the Brill collection too.Time

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Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 12:17 PM

Kevin Becker:
The Gottingen Septuagint is dedicated to documenting all the textual evidence about the LXX. If you are interested in textual criticism of the LXX then the Gottingen text is essential, if not the Lexham resource would be satisfactory.

Kevin,

From what you stated here, would I be correct in assuming that as a layperson who is interested in LXX study but has NO language training of any kind and has little/no desire to get heavily into the textual criticism of LXX manuscripts that I would not benefit much from Gottingen?  I'd be better served by the Lexham resource?  If that's true, then I can knock one item off my wishlist (that's something that is nice to be able to do from time to time Smile )

Is the Lexham resource available as a part of some of the higher base packages?

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 12:55 PM

Ron Keyston Jr:

Kevin Becker:
The Gottingen Septuagint is dedicated to documenting all the textual evidence about the LXX. If you are interested in textual criticism of the LXX then the Gottingen text is essential, if not the Lexham resource would be satisfactory.

Kevin,

From what you stated here, would I be correct in assuming that as a layperson who is interested in LXX study but has NO language training of any kind and has little/no desire to get heavily into the textual criticism of LXX manuscripts that I would not benefit much from Gottingen?  I'd be better served by the Lexham resource?  If that's true, then I can knock one item off my wishlist (that's something that is nice to be able to do from time to time Smile )

Is the Lexham resource available as a part of some of the higher base packages?

You interpret my statement correctly. I have a seminary education and while I would love to Gottingen I don't think that I will be doing enough text-critical work in the LXX to justify buying it. It seems unlikely to me that a layperson would derive much benefit from this resource.

However, if you ever read a commentary that references a LXX version different from the one presented in the Lexham resource you wouldn't be able to double check it.

I have the Lexham resource in question and I have Platinum... I don't remember what level a Greek version of the LXX enters the base packages.

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nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 1:18 PM

Kevin Becker:
don't remember what level a Greek version of the LXX enters the base packages.

Scholar's.  Sales rep very kindly gave me a discount on the full price of the LXX when I upgraded!Big Smile

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 3:20 PM

Kevin Becker:
I have a seminary education and while I would love to Gottingen I don't think that I will be doing enough text-critical work in the LXX to justify buying it. It seems unlikely to me that a layperson would derive much benefit from this resource.

Kevin,  (work with me here   Wink  my wife sometimes reads these forums.)

If a lay-person had the time & interest to study and were able to purchase both the Lexham & Gottingen  resources, would it still be a bad idea?

Some people pursue a study for their interest alone and not to enhance their employment skills or teaching duties.  I think study can be as interesting a hobby as golf, woodworking or travel.

 

 

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Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 4:22 PM

For 99% of logos users, the Göttingen Septuagint (LXX) is overkill and will be collecting digital dust. I am seminary trained and going for a terminal degree in Biblical studies. While I am in no way a LXX specialist, I refer to the LXX quite a bit when I deal with the use of the Old Testament in the New (the LXX is often used when NT writers quote the OT). However, I rarely find the need to deal with textual issues with the depth afforded by the Göttingen Septuagint. Purchasing this resource is for those who want to become LXX specialists and want to do academic research. Casual users will have little to gain. It is not enough to have a tool such as the Göttingen Septuagint, the person needs to know how to use it in order to make sense of the variants and have an informed decision about which one is to be preferred, how it is to be translated, and so on. For 99.999% of humans, these skills cannot be acquired on your own, you need formal training to get the necessary command of LXX Greek, textual criticism and so on.  Let us not forget to a command of biblical Hebrew and the Dead Sea Scrolls might also be required to properly leverage this tool. If I only use a resource once in a while, then it is better for me to use it at a seminary library. I recommend first reading a book like Invitation to the Septuagint by Jobes and Silva before deciding to  purchase of the Göttingen Septuagint.

Alain

Posts 433
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 5:38 PM

I have a hard time imagining the reader who can make good use of Rahlfs but is incapable of making good use of Göttingen. Both require knowledge of Greek to read with ease, both have critical apparatuses that discuss variants. Göttingen include more texts that aren't found in other editions (such as the Alpha-/L-Text of Esther) so even if you aren't worried about apparatuses, but you want access to the texts that commentaries deal with, Göttingen is worth considering.

The Göttingen text is the next generation Septuagint. If you look at new scholarship on the Septuagint (including the NETS translation), work generally follows Göttingen where it is available, and then Rahlfs for those books where Göttingen is incomplete. So I don't really understand the notion that Göttingen is only for advanced text critical work. That's sort of like saying that the NA27 (or the forthcoming NA28) is only for advanced text critical work, and for lay people, Stephanus or Erasmus or Westcott & Hort are good enough. All of those are usable Greek New Testaments, but surely there are many people who benefit from the text critical work that went into producing the NA27 without being text critics themselves.

If you want to read the LXX today, Rahlfs is still a solid choice, since it is complete. But Göttingen is the direction things are heading.

Posts 453
Mike S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 6:01 PM

Ron Keyston Jr:
From what you stated here, would I be correct in assuming that as a layperson who is interested in LXX study but has NO language training of any kind and has little/no desire to get heavily into the textual criticism of LXX manuscripts that I would not benefit much from Gottingen?  

I would say that someone like yourself would be better off with the NETS translation of the LXX (Not currently available in Logos, I have it in another program and you can get the PDFs of individual books for free online). There's no interlinear for Gottingen... you'd just get frustrated that you spent hundreds of dollars on something you can't read. If you want interlinear stick with the Lexham LXX Interlinear!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 7:38 PM

Matthew C Jones:
If a lay-person had the time & interest to study and were able to purchase both the Lexham & Gottingen  resources, would it still be a bad idea?

No, it wouldn't be a bad idea. Time and interest should be the primary consideration. The world's expert on the use of mushrooms in "tribal" religions was a New York banker whose interest in mushrooms grew out of a comparison of his Russian wife's fondness for mushrooms vs. the American fear of mushroom. It earned him an adjunct title at Harvard, a book, and the undying love of Vedic scholars for his identification of soma (the equivalent of the Greek gods' ambrosia). If you love it, go for it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 8:59 PM

Kevin Becker:

You interpret my statement correctly. I have a seminary education and while I would love to Gottingen I don't think that I will be doing enough text-critical work in the LXX to justify buying it. It seems unlikely to me that a layperson would derive much benefit from this resource.

However, if you ever read a commentary that references a LXX version different from the one presented in the Lexham resource you wouldn't be able to double check it.

I have the Lexham resource in question and I have Platinum... I don't remember what level a Greek version of the LXX enters the base packages.

Thanks Kevin (and everybody else) for the info.  I had this on my wishlist, but I will be removing it as it sounds like it would indeed be collecting "digital dust" in my case.  It sounds like the Lexham interlinear will serve my personal study needs just fine and I'm sure I will pick it up when I upgrade to Platinum soon.  Hmmm...now I need to figure out what to fill the $299 "gap" in my wishlist with Big Smile

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Oct 12 2010 9:07 PM

Alain Maashe:
However, I rarely find the need to deal with textual issues with the depth afforded by the Göttingen Septuagint.

 

True. I can see your point. but that goes only for the apparati. The main text of Göttingen is different from Rahlfs especially in books like Daniel where papyri revealed parts of the Old Greek. Of course if someone does not read Greek he shouldn't buy a Greek resource.

Alain Maashe:
you need formal training to get the necessary command of LXX Greek, textual criticism and so on.

 

I am not sure textual criticism is the result of formal training (and I was extensively trained) you could use Tov's TCHB and TCU which are great manuals. You do need to acquire experience though. As for self study of Ancient Greek I share your skepticism. 

Alain Maashe:
Let us not forget to a command of biblical Hebrew and the Dead Sea Scrolls might also be required to properly leverage this tool.
 

 

I totally disagree! The Septuagint is not merely a tool. We should separate the text critical use of the Septuagint in biblical research as an aid to reconstruct the putative original text of the OT from its use in the NT, and from its internal value as a text that was created (probably) in Alexandria and used by both Christians and Jews for centuries.

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Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 13 2010 4:44 AM

I apologize if this is a dumb question, but I have checked everywhere and can't find a sample of this work - does the Gottingen Septuagint include an English transation in the resources?

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David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 13 2010 6:20 AM

Dominick Sela:

Does the Gottingen Septuagint include an English transation in the resources?

If you mean an English translation of the Septuagint, it does not. If you mean a translation of the introductions (that are in German but are mostly lists of phenomena and Greek quotations) as far as I know it was considered and Logos decided against translating them.

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 13 2010 6:28 AM

MJ. Smith:
Time and interest should be the primary consideration.

Actually, expense is a primary consideration, at least for me, with every purchase I make.  I think this resource costs a lot more than mushrooms.   Wink

 

Posts 10177
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 13 2010 7:01 AM

Dominick ... maybe I'm misunderstanding ... on the prepub page, with each volume are a series of 7 samples for each book. When I first saw that (I'm not 'fluent' in greek), I thought ugh-oh, since as noted above, it's all 'greek'! But actually, it's not a lot different than the NT majority text with its apparatus ... the most important part are whether there's variations and what the pattern is.

This last Sunday we were studying Exodus 25, specifically verse 8. In the MT, the verb is 'dwell' and the pastor had a great sermon on God dwelling with connects to the NT as well. But the LXX has 'appear', and so I wanted to know which way the Samaritan and Dead Seas scrolls went (Samaritan a pre-pub dream and DSS 'on contract'), plus whether there was any variation in the LXX usage. So, 'all greek' may be a bit troublesome, but at the pre-pub price, it's my only choice.

As regards the specific passage, I suspect it's one of the LXX's tendencies to increase the distance between God and man (but don't know that).


Posts 142
James Macleod | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 13 2010 10:40 AM

Vincent Setterholm:

The Göttingen text is the next generation Septuagint. If you look at new scholarship on the Septuagint (including the NETS translation), work generally follows Göttingen where it is available, and then Rahlfs for those books where Göttingen is incomplete. So I don't really understand the notion that Göttingen is only for advanced text critical work.

But Göttingen is the direction things are heading.

I would agree with you and disagree with the idea that you need to be "seminary trained" or have "formal training" in order to make use of The Göttingen  Septuagint or understand LXX textual issues. It smacks of elitism. I am self-taught in Greek and have no problems reading either the Greek NT or the LXX. I also have no problem understanding textual issues.

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 13 2010 11:49 AM

I studied Greek at school from the age of 13, and then at University, and read the NT only in Greek.  I bought a LXX because the commentaries so often quoted from it in reference to the NT books.  And I use it in Bible study.  I'm not trained in textual criticism, tho I got a couple of books about it.  No way do I need the massive Goettingen LXX.  For me that would be overkill. I also decide not to buy some commentaries as being more detailed than I need.

As I know Hebrew, I do my detailed OT study using the Hebrew OT, eked out by English crib where necessary (often).  Maybe a Greek LXX would be more useful for someone who has more Greek than Hebrew.  I would still think Goettingen would be more useful for academics specialising in that area.

Incidentally I'm sure you can teach yourself Biblical Greek and Hebrew, particularly with the resources Logos offers.  Tho I admit I have not checked these out.  I've now reached the stage where I learn more  Greek and Hebrew by using them, helped out by Logos lexicons, Steve Runge, etc.

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Oct 13 2010 12:09 PM

Denise Barnhart:

Dominick ... maybe I'm misunderstanding ... on the prepub page, with each volume are a series of 7 samples for each book. When I first saw that (I'm not 'fluent' in greek), I thought ugh-oh, since as noted above, it's all 'greek'! But actually, it's not a lot different than the NT majority text with its apparatus ... the most important part are whether there's variations and what the pattern is.

This last Sunday we were studying Exodus 25, specifically verse 8. In the MT, the verb is 'dwell' and the pastor had a great sermon on God dwelling with connects to the NT as well. But the LXX has 'appear', and so I wanted to know which way the Samaritan and Dead Seas scrolls went (Samaritan a pre-pub dream and DSS 'on contract'), plus whether there was any variation in the LXX usage. So, 'all greek' may be a bit troublesome, but at the pre-pub price, it's my only choice.

As regards the specific passage, I suspect it's one of the LXX's tendencies to increase the distance between God and man (but don't know that).

 

Thanks Denise for pointing out the sample pages, I can't believe I missed that!

OK it's all Greek!  So here is my follow up question. Since I am not fluent in Greek, I use things like the interlinears in Bibles, etc., to check on a word, flip over to BWS, etc.  How would I use this resource, would I have it open and linked to an English translation of the Bible say, and then does it take the place of having an interlinear? Does it make study using a particular Bible better somehow?

Sorry if these questions are redundant, I thought I knew what was going on, now I know I don't know anything :-)

Posts 28
Jonathan Vliet | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 15 2010 10:38 AM

Thank you David,

Very insightful.  So was there a version of the Septuagint circulated amongst common Jews in Christ's time?  If so, is there any indication of what they used?

Posts 912
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 15 2010 11:12 AM

Jonathan Vliet:
So was there a version of the Septuagint circulated amongst common Jews in Christ's time?  If so, is there any indication of what they used?

 

Among Hellenistic Jews for sure. There are Greek fragments found in Qumran. They are very different from what we are able to reconstruct from the rest of the textual witnesses to the LXX. There are also ancient papyri from Egypt. All of this is not enough for us to be certain what the Old Greek looked like. We can only use the practices of textual criticism to try and reconstruct that text.

This  is the million dollar question. What was the OG?  That is the aim of the Göttingen Project.

For a fuller answer you will have to browse one of those introductions I mentioned in a previous post on this thread (Fernandez Marcos/ Jellicoe). In my opinion it is a fascinating field of research.

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