Consensus "beef up notes"

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 9 2011 6:54 PM

tom collinge:
Can someone please provide me some information on this limitation. thanks

I've run into the problem on the initial note of the passage guide - where I thought I was providing a short outline and summary of the passage but I exceeded the length limits. When I posted it as a bug, I was informed that the assumption was that you entered a short comment and there was no plan to change that.

I agree with you that there is strong evidence that Logos development cycle shortcuts design. All the notes - in the guides, in notes, in clippings and arguably prayer lists - should use a common component. If that component is solid, fulfilling the request for a journal function would be a no brainer. The tagging component and the highlighting component should then easily apply to all of the note-like elements, rather than working here but not there. The weaknesses in Logos imply to me too much duplication of function too little reuse of well-designed components. I've had experience (less than ideal) with a development cycle of young web developers. I call it the code first think later approach; they tell me its prototype and not get the time from manager to go back and build the real deal. There is a reason UML was developed ... now if we could get the judicious use of it. Boy - do I sound like an old larger-system main-framer.Embarrassed

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 9 2011 7:46 PM

MJ. Smith:
I've run into the problem on the initial note of the passage guide - where I thought I was providing a short outline and summary of the passage but I exceeded the length limits. When I posted it as a bug, I was informed that the assumption was that you entered a short comment and there was no plan to change that.

MJ,

Are you talking about the notes that we can attached to a PG?  This is something that I have not done.  I just ran a test, and I copied a seven page document into one of the notes for a PG section, and it when I went back to the PG, all seven pages where there.

MJ. Smith:
I agree with you that there is strong evidence that Logos development cycle shortcuts design. All the notes - in the guides, in notes, in clippings and arguably prayer lists - should use a common component. If that component is solid, fulfilling the request for a journal function would be a no brainer. The tagging component and the highlighting component should then easily apply to all of the note-like elements, rather than working here but not there. The weaknesses in Logos imply to me too much duplication of function too little reuse of well-designed components. I've had experience (less than ideal) with a development cycle of young web developers. I call it the code first think later approach; they tell me its prototype and not get the time from manager to go back and build the real deal. There is a reason UML was developed ... now if we could get the judicious use of it. Boy - do I sound like an old larger-system main-framer.Embarrassed

As an old large main-framer - Preach it sister!!!!!!!!!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 9 2011 9:26 PM

tom collinge:
Are you talking about the notes that we can attached to a PG?  This is something that I have not done.  I just ran a test, and I copied a seven page document into one of the notes for a PG section, and it when I went back to the PG, all seven pages where there.

I double checked - this does seem to have been fixed.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 4:33 AM

MJ. Smith:

tom collinge:
Are you talking about the notes that we can attached to a PG?  This is something that I have not done.  I just ran a test, and I copied a seven page document into one of the notes for a PG section, and it when I went back to the PG, all seven pages where there.

I double checked - this does seem to have been fixed.

It looks like we can take the first item off the list. Smile

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 4:04 PM

Thank you, MJ, for taking responsibility for this! I really think Logos needs to take a look at the full picture here. I don't know the first thing about programming, but I don't think you need to be either a programmer or a genius to realize that sometimes "number 10" on a prioritized list simply has to be done before "number 2", and sometimes "number 20" or "30" is so radical that it doesn't make sense to do anything at all until you've decided whether to implement that or not -- and therefore Logos needs to know everything that we want, so that they can make us a "seamless garment" and not just keep putting patches on the holes we point out to them.

Actually, every time they've released a new update without any attempt whatsoever at reaching note parity between Mac and PC, I've tried to look at it from the bright side, and hoped that the reason was the same as for Handouts: that they'd decided to completely redo Notes, and therefore didn't want to waste time patching up the old version. But after half a year without any word indicating I was right, I guess I'm beginning to lose hope and start thinking like everyone else: that they simply don't get it with notes. Sad

It's too late now, and I'm too tired, but I'll work on a prioritized list tomorrow. I think we should let this thread run at least until Sunday before anything is posted on Uservoice, in order to get as much input as possible (longer if the debate is still going on).

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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Peter Covert | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 10 2011 6:07 PM

Here are my top 5:

#2. permit at least as much formatting as in L3 which includes tables, illustrations, colored text, underlined text ...

#3. permit a table of contents panel similar to L3

#23. To be able to prioritize my notes (for an example, I can have all of my year c files to be a the top of the list when we are in year c).

#24. To have more note icon colors, (at less match the icon colors of L3 so that we do not lose the information that is contained in our icon color).

#18. allow tags on all notes as well as the ability to search on those tags

 
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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2011 7:00 AM

tom collinge:

MJ. Smith:

tom collinge:
Are you talking about the notes that we can attached to a PG?  This is something that I have not done.  I just ran a test, and I copied a seven page document into one of the notes for a PG section, and it when I went back to the PG, all seven pages where there.

I double checked - this does seem to have been fixed.

It looks like we can take the first item off the list. Smile

Because we can remove an item off of this list, I will add another one to it.

  1. allow highlighting on notes
  2. permit at least as much formatting as in L3 which includes tables, illustrations, colored text, underlined text ...
  3. permit a table of contents panel similar to L3
  4. allow a note to be attached to multiple passages - with the note icon appearing on each passage
  5. improve the performance: keyboard entry, long notes and note files
  6. allow all links - to other notes, PDF's mp3's, PowerPoint's, web, mind maps ...
  7. permit notes to be made from templates
  8. add linkset functionality to notes
  9. retain "deleted" notes for a period of time - permitting a restore function
  10. allow referenced resources to be shown in full
  11. implement additional sort sequences - canon, created date, last modified date, user note title, highlighting. This requires add date and time stamp to notes - created and last updated
  12. allow setting of default block icon color to be set at the file level (currently all defaults to yellow)
  13. integrate a journaling feature - a note file that automatically includes date in the title and automatically sorts on date
  14. allow a search directly on the contents of notes - all notes whether in note files or guides
  15. remove the size limitation on notes in the passage and exegetical guides
  16. permit notes to be attached to a lemma, liturgical date, search string
  17. allow the sharing of notes between users
  18. allow tags on all notes as well as the ability to search on those tags
  19. when the note is attached to a specific text permit any highlighting style to be used in the resource
  20. allow notes and note files to be merged or split
  21. include spell checker in notes
  22. have search on note file open with appropriate notes expanded and the search terms highlighted
  23. To be able to prioritize my notes (for an example, I can have all of my year c files to be a the top of the list when we are in year c).
  24. To have more note icon colors, (at less match the icon colors of L3 so that we do not lose the information that is contained in our icon color).
  25. reporting feature which pulls all notes on a given pericope into a printable, exportable file. 
  26. To be able to add note files to collections
Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2011 1:17 PM

Preliminary list:

  1. Implement parity with PC. A list of what that includes has been started here. (Please add to it if you note something missing.)
  2. Change to right-click instead of x to delete a note (if that doesn't fall under 1?)
  3. (#4, expanded) Allow a note to be attached to multiple passages - with the note icon appearing on each passage. And make it easy. It should be possible to attach the same note to all verses in a Passage List with just 1-2-3 clicks. Or to all references in a section in a cross reference resource. Or to all parallels in a Harmony. Or to all occurrences of a particular phrase in a search result list. Or to both a Bible verse and to all lectionary readings where that verse occurs. And the new note should be created with a default text: a linked list of all the references linked to that note.
  4. Remove automatic highlighting when adding a note to a selection. Let the highlighting show only when hovering above the note icon. (Or, better, give us the choice to have it this way, since some obviously like it the way it is.) (I guess this is kind of a modified #19, or at least the two could be merged.)
  5. Attach "selection notes" to the lemmas whenever possible, so that they too can show up in multiple Bibles.
  6. (#9 and #JimT, modified) Implement an option not to sync personal notes etc, while still being online. Create secure storage of notes on our own computers, and easy retrieval from backup copies. (Individual deleted notes could be brought back by retrieving the whole older file, and then either replacing the newer file, dragging the wanted note[s ] back into the newer file before deleting the older one again, or merging the two files (#20).)
  7. Make shift-click and cmd-click work for dragging multiple notes (I assume that would be ctrl-click for you PC folks). (This would also solve Tom's #23.)
  8. (#11, modified) Implement additional sort sequences (- canon, created date, last modified date, user note title, highlighting. This requires add date and time stamp to notes - created and last updated). My wishes would be canonical order, liturgical order, alphabetical order, and personal order (see below). And free choice between sorting based on the first or the second field of the first line. And being able to group by icon colour might be useful as well (and would provide a second way of solving Tom's #23).
  9. Add an option to Save This Order (so that one can temporarily sort e g canonically or alphabetically, and then go back to one's own carefully arranged personalized order.
  10. (#14) Allow a search directly on the contents of notes - all notes whether in note files or guides.
  11. (#David Paul, modified) Make the note pop-up window as large as the note requires, up to about 12*12 cm. Add scroll bar and draggable corner for larger notes. (Is this what you mean with #10, MJ?)
  12. (#8) Add linkset functionality to notes.
  13. (#12) Allow setting of default block icon color to be set at the file level (currently all defaults to yellow).
  14. (#16) Permit notes to be attached to a lemma, liturgical date, search string.
  15. (#6, expanded) Allow all links - to other notes, PDF's, mp3's, PowerPoint's, web, mind maps, photos...
  16. (#20) Allow notes and note files to be merged or split.
  17. (#22) Have search on note file open with appropriate notes expanded and the search terms highlighted.
  18. Add more choices to the right-click menu when creating a note: Add a note to new note file, and Add a note to ... (with ability to choose between all existing note files, without having to open them first).
  19. Add the ability to turn on note files in places where it's not currently possible, like in Passage Lists.
  20. (#17 and #JimT) Allow the sharing of notes between users.

NB: I consider all these changes to be essential and urgent. The list only reflects the order in which I presently need them, not the order of necessity. I e some things further down will undoubtedly be more necessary to me in the long run, but right now I don't have enough notes to be absolutely desperate for them yet. Which is, of course, partly because Notes works so lousily!  

I can imagine wanting tables, pictures, more formatting options, more note icon colours/shapes, highlighting and tabs at some later time, and will be glad if it's there when I do, but I haven't felt the need so far. I'd also prefer the note icons to be smaller, but that's a cosmetic change for much further down the road.

I know too little about the TOC, the templates and the journal to take a stand. Can someone paste a screenshot of the L3 TOC, so that I can get an idea of it's usefulness? And explain the others?

I haven't had any performance issues yet, beyond the list linked to in 1. I imagine from what I read that I probably will have when I get more notes, but it's hard to rank something you haven't had a problem with yet.

I don't need a spell checker, since we've already got one in the Mac OS Wink

tom collinge:
If there was a good note system, there would be no need for a sermon add-in subsystem.

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for clippings subsystem.

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for pbb subsystem.

I've never seen the Sermon File or the PBB, and I haven't used Clippings much, but I suspect you're right. One could add:

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/541911-my-commentary?ref=title

If there was a good note system, there would be no need for http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/1012817-add-a-make-it-yourself-catena-function-as-descibed?ref=title

So, yes, something really comprehensive is what I'd really want, but unfortunately I don't have the vision or the computer skills to outline it.

David Paul:
As far as I'm concerned, Logos is a NOTE PROGRAM WITH SEARCH ABILITIES.

You mean it should be "a NOTE PROGRAM WITH SEARCH ABILITIES". Wink

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2011 6:28 PM

fgh:
This would also solve Tom's #23.

hi fgh,

I should have been more clear.  I am talking about  prioritize my note files.  I have over 80 note files, and I would like to group them to the type of data that they contain.  For an example, I have six note files that contain various hymnal information.  I have 18 note files (six for each year) that contains various information.  I would like to year a files together, year b files together,....

In the passage guide, I would like my note files to be listed by my prioritization.  I have attached two screen prints.  The first is how my note files appear in the PG.  The second is how I would like them to appear in the PG.

The third screen print shows the note icons.  I would like the icons to also be listed by my prioritization.  Right now, the icons simply appear randomly.

Pic 1:

pic 2:

pic 3:

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 11 2011 7:34 PM

I met a Logos 4 user today, and he said he had many 1000's of books more than I do and I have between 2600 in Logos 4 and 3400 in Libronix 3.

He is working on his masters degree at a major Christian school and I brought up how great Logos was for doing research. He agreed 100%, but than brought up the fact that it was by far the best for doing research but it was extremely poor at being able to store that material in a usable way and launched in to how he used another bible software to store his findings.

Off course I thought about this thread and how true it is, we need the notes beefed up!  One more note, he doesn't use Logos 4 much because the notes are better in Libronix 3. 

Now here is a man that loves Logos and has spent a lot of money on it and uses it all the time, but as he said, they are kind of stubborn when it comes to fixing their notes problem.

It remind me how important it is to have a thread like this one to bring things to their attention, but God opened my eyes to the importance of praying for them about this feature, that God will either show them or show us what to do!  Maybe I am the stubborn one, shock!  I must admit I can not imagine a person that uses the program all the time not desiring a better note system.

In Christ,

Jim VanSchoonhoven

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 4:29 PM

tom collinge:
I am talking about  prioritize my note files.

Ah, sorry! I thought you were talking about prioritizing your notes, within your note files. I guess we all interpret according to how we do things ourselves... I'd take those parentheses away if I could, but it's too late, unfortunately.

fgh:
I know too little about the TOC, the templates and the journal to take a stand. Can someone paste a screenshot of the L3 TOC, so that I can get an idea of it's usefulness? And explain the others?

bump!

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 14 2011 8:38 PM

fgh:
Ah, sorry! I thought you were talking about prioritizing your notes, within your note files.

No problem, I was not clear enough in my posting of what I was asking.

fgh:
I know too little about the TOC, the templates and the journal to take a stand. Can someone paste a screenshot of the L3 TOC, so that I can get an idea of it's usefulness? And explain the others?

Here is a screen shot for one of my note files.  Notice the TOC is on the left just like every book in L3/L4.  If I want to go to a different part of the note file, I can just scroll through the TOC, click on the note I want to read, and the I am at the note.

 

For a template example, here is the template that I use for my sermon prep.  It would be nice to start every note in this note file with this information instead of coping it and then pasting it.  NOTE: this note file contains a table that the import process does not convert.  Therefore, this file is worthless in L4.

 

And this is what the note looks like when I am done with it:

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eddespaghetti | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 15 2011 4:13 PM

I am down with all 22

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 15 2011 5:10 PM

tom collinge:

Here is a screen shot for one of my note files.  Notice the TOC is on the left just like every book in L3/L4.  If I want to go to a different part of the note file, I can just scroll through the TOC, click on the note I want to read, and the I am at the note.

Thanks. You have very long notes! 

Leaving that aside, I still don't really see the need. Doesn't Compact View (which I don't have yet on Mac) give just about the same, but without wasting valuable screen space?

And I don't write sermons, so I'm afraid I still haven't been able to figure out any personal need for a template. 

What would be useful, though, would be to be able to automatically create a note file with [empty] notes for every text in [part of] a lectionary, or every chapter in a book, or something like that, instead of having to create every note manually. 

Edde Anderson:
I am down with all 22

Would that be MJ's original 22? There have been many more suggested since then. Plus she asked us to prioritize.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 15 2011 5:29 PM

fgh:
Leaving that aside, I still don't really see the need. Doesn't Compact View (which I don't have yet on Mac) give just about the same, but without wasting valuable screen space?

If compact view worked and the window was not sooooooo slow - maybe.  Here is the same note file in L4's compact view:

 

I also find it a lot easier to use to scroll through the titles on the left, and this is why.  Background: If my note references other scripture verses, and they do, and I want to look up my notes in the same note file about that note, and I do.  Answer: I tend to forget the verse that I am looking up in a matter of .0003 seconds once I move the mouse.  (Is it John 1:2 or is it John 2:1?  Dog done it, I have to go back and look it up).  If I just have to scroll through the titles, I can keep the note file on the right as a reference.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 16 2011 2:11 PM

I agree that having the individual note "titles" (verse listings) in a separate window on the left like in L3 is much more helpful. That window has made my life and study easier on many occasions.

Posts 2
Jack Nemeth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2011 6:26 AM

Unless I've missed this functionality, I don't see how you can add notes in the middle of an existing group of notes?  I would like to be able to move a note up or down in the group of notes I've already taken.  If I come back later to a group of notes I've taken, it seems I can only add that note to the bottom of the list, rather than place it where I need it in the overall list.

Posts 3578
steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2011 7:26 AM

Hi Jack, welcome to the Forum!

Jack Nemeth:
I would like to be able to move a note up or down in the group of notes I've already taken.

You can rearrange your notes by dragging and dropping them.


1.  Hover your mouse over the left edge of a note until you see a blue bar. Then click your mouse button (and don't release) on the blue bar and drag the note.

2.  As you drag your note Logos4 will show you a horizontal bar showing where the location that you can drop the note. When you get the horizontal bar where you want it release the mouse button to drop it there.

If you have a very large note file with a lot of notes you might want to use this technique as shown in the wiki article Quicker way to rearrange notes in a large Note file

QLinks, Bibl2, LLR, Macros
Dell Insp 17-5748, i5, 1.7 GHz, 8G RAM, win 8.1

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2011 8:06 AM

This whole discussion is fascinating. What mystifies me is the Logos Inc strategic product planning (which I'd assume is the CEO himself). The Logos value-added computation added the indexing and high-speed inter-resource connectivity. And then apparently subtracted the use of same, by dummying down the note function. I'd also assume the decision process was based on looking at the statistical user patterns (most user presumably not doing much with notes?).  But if Logos hopes to leverage L4 > church presentation software, the note function would be critical. Kind of an odd mystery. Plus I didn't know L3 was so good!


Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 19 2011 8:52 AM

Denise Barnhart:

This whole discussion is fascinating. What mystifies me is the Logos Inc strategic product planning (which I'd assume is the CEO himself). The Logos value-added computation added the indexing and high-speed inter-resource connectivity. And then apparently subtracted the use of same, by dummying down the note function. I'd also assume the decision process was based on looking at the statistical user patterns (most user presumably not doing much with notes?).  But if Logos hopes to leverage L4 > church presentation software, the note function would be critical. Kind of an odd mystery. Plus I didn't know L3 was so good!

Hi Denise,

You are correct about the number of people who were using notes (statistical user patterns), and several people who said that they did not use notes in L3 stated that did not use notes in L3 came from the fact that the note feature in L3 was soooooo bad.

Notes in L3 were not that good, they are just a lot better than what is found in L4.  

Bob said this on July 4th, 2009,

Bob Pritchett:
Let me start by saying we ARE improving notes in the next release, and implementing many of the most commonly requested features.

After close to a year and a half of L4 being sold to the public, I personally consider this statement nothing more than b.s.

 

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