I'm blown away at the power of L4: a skeptic repents

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This post has 108 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 42
Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 3:49 AM

Thank you again for your response on forum. Your comments about paying the bills are fair of course and I imagined something like that to be the case.

Bob Pritchett:
We did toy with naming Logos 4 something completely new -- because to us it is in many ways a v1.0 product.

 

This is the key thing isn't it. Even using L4 briefly it becomes very clear this is a different product. It is conceptually different. That's a great thing to do. The target audience of the new user, the potential to increase depth of study among many people, as a pastor it is a thrilling idea. I look to the day when the whole congregation are sitting with logos on their phones checking my greek exegesis is sound and when they begin the service uploading their prayerlists and answers to our church's logos central and then praying over them together as the service ends :) Well, there's a few upgrades to think about.

I pray your progress with L4 is blessed.

Bob Pritchett:

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4. 

I hope that last sentence doesn't remain true for long.

Bob Pritchett:
I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them.

I once used and highly recommended a program called Mindmanager. Then came an upgrade which caused a lot of heat in the forums Big Smile They had taken (a very good) decision to make the program a business one, to expand the audience. I didn't realise it at the time, but the loss of some features was actually the beginning of a move to a different product aimed at different users. Over a couple of years this became much clearer and today I don't even have Mindmanager installed. Its a good piece of sw, just not for me. This is what I think may be happening with L4.

So i'd love to hear/read more about the concept being fleshed out with L4. Not trade secrets. Well, no, I'd be happy to hear those too but I don't think that will happen. Smile So could you point me to blog/forum/ other thing where I could understand more?

Thank you again.

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 6:11 AM

Edward hyndman:

the potential to increase depth of study among many people, as a pastor it is a thrilling idea. I look to the day when the whole congregation are sitting with logos on their phones checking my greek exegesis is sound 

 

Gee Ed, my Pastor's have never appreciated my critiquing their Greek :) To often Pastor's use the phrase "a better translation would be", when what they really should be saying is "if I translate it this way, it supports my thesis". Alas as a former Pastor, I probably fell into that trap as well. But I must say, it is so nice to be able to check my current Pastor's greek use on my iPhone.

 

 

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 9:23 AM

Robert Pavich:
Just wait until your my age..arggg...I have to take my glasses off most of the time; I spend all day at work on a computer and can't even see it with my glasses on!
Yikes, I am there too.

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Posts 16
Frank Bristow | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 9:55 AM

I'm a new user of Logos and thought I would give my opinion. I bought L3 Scholars edition, installed it and one week later L4 was released. I was furious that the salesperson did not tell me L4 was due in a week. She made a presentation at my church and never mentioned a new release was imminent. I've never installed new software on the day it was released since I have worked in software development for many years and know about initial release issues. But I didn't listen to my experience and went for L4 figuring I didn't know L3 anyway and Logos is such a reputable company that there is no way they would release buggy software. So far not such a bad decision, because I have the benefit of having access to L3 and L4, but sadly found that my assumption of not releasing buggy software wasn't true.

Reading these forums has been a real eye opener for me and provided some answers without spending time on the phone. My phone calls have not resulted in answers, nor have my emails. Being told to go to the forum is unacceptable, but I guess the best alternative for now. The anger and frustration of current users of Logos is understandable. As a new user I like the product, but sadly my initial impression of the company isn't too positive. People remember negative experiences a lot longer than they remember the positive. It will be awhile before I consider adding new resources. The one I do have, the Steve Green Midi Hymnal is not integrated in L4. I expect to see those hymns in the Music list, but that is not happening yet and so far support hasn't been able to say if they ever will.

So tomorrow I'm giving a Logos 4 demo to a Bible study group at my church. My advice to them will be yes, get Logos if you can afford it...but not now. Wait a few months for more fixes and realize this is computer software and yes there will be problems and a learning curve and you had better have a pc that can handle the load.

Posts 18899
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 10:05 AM

Joel:

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.

Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere. Once Vista got a reputation for being unstable from a few users complaining about problems with it early on, that reputation just kept getting rehashed over and over and became stuck in people's minds. Vista has been fine for me, and I'm an ultra power user. Granted, I waited to upgrade until SP2 was available, and I bought it as a clean install on a brand new computer. That's the only way I ever upgrade to a new OS (except service releases).

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 10:25 AM

Frank Bristow:
I was furious that the salesperson did not tell me L4 was due in a week. She made a presentation at my church and never mentioned a new release was imminent.

I'm pretty sure she didn't know the release was imminent.  The sales person I talked to at Logos HQ on the day of release was surprised by it and made the comment that I knew more about the product than him.

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Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 10:32 AM

Rosie Perera:

Joel:

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.

 

Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere.

I installed Vista on two older desktops.  Vista crushed both systems and I was forced to trash both.  So I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception, but the shortcomings of Vista was not just a bad internet rumor for some people it was a reality.

 

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Posts 18899
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 10:45 AM

Joe Miller:

Rosie Perera:

Joel:

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.

Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere.

I installed Vista on two older desktops.  Vista crushed both systems and I was forced to trash both.  So I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception, but the shortcomings of Vista was not just a bad internet rumor for some people it was a reality.

I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't mean the bad reputation wasn't just a rumor made up out of whole cloth. Many people did have issues with it, bad ones like yours. Reputations do get started somewhere legitimate, but they live on after the problems have been fixed. And they get magnified beyond the instances that initiated them, due to the miracle of replication in the blogosphere. I had heard of Vista's bad reputation and I "knew" it was a piece of crap without having any personal experience with it. I was disappointed to be forced to upgrade to it when I bought a new computer. But then I was pleasantly surprised. Perhaps I was just lucky, but I do think waiting until SP2 had something to do with it. And like I said, I never install new operating systems on old computers. (New wine in old wineskins, and all that...) Not that that's much comfort to you after the fact. I'm sorry you were one of the few who had a bad experience.

Joe Miller:

I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception

Seems you enjoyed informing me, actually... Smile I never claimed that my perception was anything other than my perception. Of course it was; that's by definition. I even acknowledged that I knew I wasn't speaking universal truth ex cathedra when I said "I think..."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 10:51 AM

Joe Miller:

Rosie Perera:

Joel:

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP.

 

Ditto. I think it's all an issue of perception in the press and the blogosphere.

I installed Vista on two older desktops.  Vista crushed both systems and I was forced to trash both.  So I regret to inform you that your perception is just that, your perception, but the shortcomings of Vista was not just a bad internet rumor for some people it was a reality.

 

Did you check the system requirements before attempting to install Vista?  I think that even if they were marginal I would hesitate to attempt it.  I have Vista and have no problems whatsoever with it.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 11:02 AM

Rosie, I am glad you realize problems with Vista were more than internet rumors.   MS made some big mistakes with Vista.... it was like "Windows Me" all over again.. yuck.

George, can't tell you what the specs were since both are long gone now. My wife uses my old laptop with XP and when that dies, she will get a Mac.  

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Posts 18899
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 11:11 AM

Todd Phillips:

Frank Bristow:
I was furious that the salesperson did not tell me L4 was due in a week. She made a presentation at my church and never mentioned a new release was imminent.

I'm pretty sure she didn't know the release was imminent.  The sales person I talked to at Logos HQ on the day of release was surprised by it and made the comment that I knew more about the product than him.

She probably did know the release of L4 was imminent if she was a Logos HQ employee. I'm sure they were all told to keep mum about the new version until Nov 2 when it was released, just as all of us beta testers were. The company can't exactly stop selling the previous version just because a new one is due shortly. They need to keep a steady revenue stream coming in in order to pay for the development costs of the new version. They should have some sort of discounted upgrade cost for people who bought the previous version within the past 60 days or something, though. I'm not sure whether they do, but many companies do that kind of thing. It's only fair.

I'm surprised by the comments of the sales person you talked to on release day. Perhaps it was a brand new employee, hired in anticipation of the increased demand for sales that would occur once the new version hit the market. Perhaps they didn't do a very good job of training their new salespeople about the product if you knew more about it than he did.

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 11:19 AM

I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 11:20 AM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:

Bob Pritchett:

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4. 

However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.

I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users.

It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos.  Between L3ers moving to L4 and L3/L4 users purchasing add-ons and prepubs (I'd imagine new-users are not near as likely to do this) I'm surprised "we" are ONLY "pretty well balanced" in revenue generation.

-You'd have to also take into account the word-of-mouth advertising that L3 users moving to L4 will generate.  All those things added together ought to significantly outweigh ALL New-Users. IMO (always a chance I don't know what I'm talking about)

I've heard a few times now about how L4 is "focused" on New-Users, but then how us L3 "old timers" shouldn't fret about it, "we're still pretty important."

------------------------------------------------------------------

Just my rantings, but I think L4 is a great program and I look forward to it becoming even better.  I just start to feel (somtimes) that those of us who have helped grow Logos (through our purchases) are now (or maybe just becoming) a second thought.

Thanks for your contribution and response. However i must say i think you missed the spirit of what Bob was trying to say. I will leave it at that. Ted

"Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4".

"I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them. I'm just trying to provide some explanation of the subjective and complicated decision making process. I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us".

-- Bob

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 11:30 AM

Joe Miller:
Wow, you must have some information the President of Logos Bob P. does not have.  Hmmm.. who should I believe has the most accurate data???  such a tough question to answer.... Random user or Company President

Need i say Joe i agree with you wholeheartedlyYes

Ted

 

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 11:30 AM

Joe Miller:
George, can't tell you what the specs were since both are long gone now. My wife uses my old laptop with XP and when that dies, she will get a Mac.

Extend my condolences to your wife when she makes the move.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 11:58 AM

Mark Barnes:
I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.

Perhaps they really didn't know.  I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information.  It seems to have been on a need to know basis.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 11:59 AM

Edward hyndman:

 today I don't even have Mindmanager installed. Its a good piece of sw, just not for me. This is what I think may be happening with L4.

What features are lost in V4 (that aren't coming) that were in LDLS3 that make you think this is turning into a product that won't work for you?

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 408
Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 12:50 PM

Thanks again Bob for your comments.

I remember at one point during the Beta, that Bob mentioned that there was a thought to release it prior to the end of the year. One of the reasonings was to allow seminary students and teachers time to get acclimated to L4 before the next term. I am not in a seminary - yet - but remembering being a college student I appreciate the thought so that I would have time to become acquainted with my new tools prior to needing them for class.

As for L4 being buggy? I too work in the software industry and have never-ever seen a software release that didn't have any bugs even with extensive testing and Beta users. Loading a piece of software into any environment is different for every scenario. You can come close to similar setups, but I seriously doubt you have many setups that are identical. Loading Logos is no different. The reason because each of us is an individual and setup our computers to suit how we work with applications that allow us to get our work done. I won't even go into drivers and hardware variances.

I had crashes in the Beta process, and I expected them - never like them but it is the nature of the beast.. In the release I have had hiccups, but nothing that I would say was a show stopper, even though I am using a system that is 5 to 6 years old. L4 is still blazingly fast and responsive compared to L3.

As to whether new and existing users balance out in the revenue, I have to go with Bob as well. I have seen the customer support side and although it is cheaper to keep an existing customer then to go get a new one or replace one. L4 and Logos history in software and customer service have a leg up in attrtacting more people. So I can see the balance.

I have never seen a CEO that is so willing to come out and communicate in a real manner like Bob does. I appreciate his candor and that of others from Logos. Bob cares about Logos and the Logos family there in Bellingham and around the world. But he cares about providing the best product to do Biblical Studies available. For that I am eternally grateful.

Thanks again Bob and Logos.

In Christ,

Ken

Dell Studio 1555; 15.6 True Life LCD; Intel Core 2 Duo T6600 2.20 GHz, 2M Cache, 800 MHz FSB ; 500GB 5400 HDD; 8GB RAM, Win 10, Chrome 70

http://wiki.logos.com/

Posts 18899
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 1:18 PM

George Somsel:

Mark Barnes:
I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.

Perhaps they really didn't know.  I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information.  It seems to have been on a need to know basis.

George, thanks for the clarification. It wasn't all beta testers who were told the release date, as I had previously implied, only ones who were verified bloggers committed to blogging about the release on the release date and who signed a non-disclosure agreement about it. And even we were only told that date a week ahead of time. They were being very careful not to let news leak out too early, so I can see why they might have kept their sales staff in the dark. It might have made it difficult for them to stay motivated about selling L3 all the way up to the end of its availability. No sense making it a lame duck before its time.

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 1:24 PM

George Somsel:

Joe Miller:
George, can't tell you what the specs were since both are long gone now. My wife uses my old laptop with XP and when that dies, she will get a Mac.

Extend my condolences to your wife when she makes the move.

LOL.. I will do that.  But most people send their condolence with a card, flowers, and a monetary gift.  Do you need my address?  ;-)

 

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