I'm blown away at the power of L4: a skeptic repents

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49562#Comment_49562

Wow! I think an apology is in order on my behalf. I grumbled when I first tried L4, but after using it I now realize how much power has been packed into this program.

Logos, I apologize for grumbling. Thanks for your efforts.

I would like to encourage other users who are struggling to press on in their efforts to learn the program. It really is an improvement.

I am especially excited about what improvements will be made in subsequent upgrades and releases.

Praise the Lord for enriching us with such great tools!

Chuck P.

It's gettin' more gooderer and gooderer every time I use it and I know nuttin' but improvements are coming on down to us...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49569#Comment_49569

Wow! I think an apology is in order on my behalf. I grumbled when I first tried L4, but after using it I now realize how much power has been packed into this program.

Beta testers had much the same feeling.. People have trouble adapting to a new workflow. But with some effort, it is worth it!

Rosie Perera

Bob Pritchett just tweeted this: The case for un-perfected software: "if you aren't embarrassed by v1.0 you didn't release it early enough" http://bit.ly/7bHI4a

I read the article that link pointed to and was about to give a cheeky reply to Bob: "That's fine for v1.0, but not for 4.0..." But then read the article that article pointed to about interating rapidly based on real world feedback. And I can see how it's working here with Logos 4, so I'm more and more OK with them having released it in such an unfinished state. I am being dragged kicking and screaming into this era of the new software development methodology. The world at large hasn't bought into it yet, and a lot of unsuspecting users will not be happy with this model for the forseeable future, until we get a new generation of people who grew up with software being this way. I guess I'm dating myself. I'm one of the dinosaurs who cut my development teeth on The Mythical Man-Month and other such ancient classics.

But I still think Logos 4 is great and is only getting better with every release. So let's keep 'em coming. I'm still on SR7. When does 4.0a ship? I can't afford the time to be in permanent beta mode all the time so I'm not going to participate in the beta for that even though I did for 4.0.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49593#Comment_49593

I read the article that link pointed to and was about to give a cheeky reply to Bob: "That's fine for v1.0, but not for 4.0..." But then read the article that article pointed to about interating rapidly based on real world feedback.

Well, I didn't read the article but the thought that I've had in the past seems to be where this article might be heading. We could have it one of two ways. Logos could wait until add ducks are in a row and the product is finely tuned, and we are left with whatever they give us for a long time. Or, they can release it early in the process, and give us a chance to help steer the ship so that in 6 months to a year we have a product refined significantly by real user feedback. I'll go for the later.

Paul Strickert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49596#Comment_49596

The fact that (the unfinished) L4 was released just in time for Christmas, I suppose, is just a coincidence. [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49600#Comment_49600

Personally, I like this development model as it fits with my Engineering background and leadership style. I guess that is where the difficulty comes when some folks have a different personality, set of experiences and expectations. Then again, as church leaders we are always working with people who have different learning styles so one would think there would be a more generous spirit toward accepting different approaches.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49596#Comment_49596

We could have it one of two ways. Logos could wait until add ducks are in a row and the product is finely tuned, and we are left with whatever they give us for a long time. Or, they can release it early in the process, and give us a chance to help steer the ship so that in 6 months to a year we have a product refined significantly by real user feedback. I'll go for the later.

Yeah, me too. But I do hope that after 6 months to a year of constant changes it settles down for a couple of years so we can use it productively without having to keep adapting to it as it changes out from under us. Then in a few years, I'll be willing to go through another 4-week learning curve. But I'd rather do the adaptation to change in big chunks like that than have a new surprise every two weeks. It gets overwhelming, the amount of change we have to deal with these days...in everything! I don't think it's good for our souls, as we can never rest. Isaiah 30:15

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49616#Comment_49616

It gets overwhelming, the amount of change we have to deal with these days...in everything! I don't think it's good for our souls, as we can never rest.

as much as I love change and trying out new software I must confess I think there is a lot of truth in what you've said. Wise guy say "He who tries many ways to do things does nothing well one way."

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49616#Comment_49616

We could have it one of two ways. Logos could wait until add ducks are in a row and the product is finely tuned, and we are left with whatever they give us for a long time. Or, they can release it early in the process, and give us a chance to help steer the ship so that in 6 months to a year we have a product refined significantly by real user feedback. I'll go for the later.

Yeah, me too. But I do hope that after 6 months to a year of constant changes it settles down for a couple of years so we can use it productively without having to keep adapting to it as it changes out from under us. Then in a few years, I'll be willing to go through another 4-week learning curve. But I'd rather do the adaptation to change in big chunks like that than have a new surprise every two weeks. It gets overwhelming, the amount of change we have to deal with these days...in everything! I don't think it's good for our souls, as we can never rest. Isaiah 30:15

I bought my first personal computer in 1982. Things were in constant change way back then.

One of the first things that I learned in my research the year before I bought that computer (Osborne 64K 28 lb. portable computer for $1895.00), was never buy version 1.0 of anything. That is why dBase II never had a dBase 1.0.

I have been following the forum discussions since the release of L4.

This forum has provided the "refining" of FAQ's and techniques as well as identified problems and strengths. I will soon be ready to jump into the cold water of a new version of Logos after observing the discussions.

One of the other phrases I learned in researching my first computer purchase is "cutting edge is bleeding edge."

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49596#Comment_49596

Or, they can release it early in the process, and give us a chance to help steer the ship so that in 6 months to a year we have a product refined significantly by real user feedback. I'll go for the later.

[Y] +1

Bill

Ken Avery

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49636#Comment_49636

Being one of the complainers; I would be happy if L4 would stop crashing [^o)]

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49652#Comment_49652

You know, I haven't had that happen yet. Are you talking PC or Mac? I run PC. I have noted when others have talked about crashing (like dragging to shortcuts) and I avoided that. But generally I just muddle through L4 and nothing crashes. Sorry you are going thru that.

Btw, anyone know if the "drag to shortcuts" still causes crashes?

Arthur Balis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49593#Comment_49593

I never really enjoyed being a guinea pig. I like it a lot less when I unknowingly pay for the experience.

-my 2 cents.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49665#Comment_49665

I never really enjoyed being a guinea pig. I like it a lot less when I unknowingly pay for the experience.

-my 2 cents.

I can certainly understand and sympathize with the other side of the coin.

Bill Shewmaker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49664#Comment_49664

Btw, anyone know if the "drag to shortcuts" still causes crashes?

Daniel,

I'm not sure if it has been officially fixed or not, but you can copy shortcuts now. You can even launch programs from the computer desktop by dragging and dropping a shortcut to L4. I have an L3 shortcut in L4 temporarily (I hope), so I can do my prayer journaling and stuff like that.

David Gullick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49664#Comment_49664

I did some dragging just now and it didn't crash = )

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49675#Comment_49675

If in fact Logos is going to be in "constant beta" then I won't last long around here.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49688#Comment_49688

If in fact Logos is going to be in "constant beta" then I won't last long around here.

Huh.. that is the same reason I switched to Mac from Windows Vista.

Arthur Balis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49700#Comment_49700

@ Joe

I was bright enough to buy a new machine the day before Vista released, for the explicit purpose of not owning a machine with Vista. I laughed at the salesman who promised me the upgrade to Vista would come free in the mail.

If I'd had any inkling that Logos 4 was this new, I would have either bought Logos 3 intentionally or waited 6 to 12 months for the bugs to be worked out by someone else.

Karen Campbell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49703#Comment_49703

I laughed at the salesman who promised me the upgrade to Vista would come free in the mail.

[:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49703#Comment_49703

If I'd had any inkling that Logos 4 was this new, I would have either bought Logos 3 intentionally or waited 6 to 12 months for the bugs to be worked out by someone else.

You do know you can still run most of what you've purchased in Logos 3, right? They even have a script that will download everything into the right format for you so you don't have to dig through resources on the ftp site.

http://www.logos.com/support/downloads/ldls

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49593#Comment_49593

But then read the article that article pointed to about interating rapidly based on real world feedback. And I can see how it's working here with Logos 4, so I'm more and more OK with them having released it in such an unfinished state. I am being dragged kicking and screaming into this era of the new software development methodology.

Hate to break it to you but reinterative prototyping as a methodology came in with forms on CRTs. Logos appears to have done the data analysis/modeling necessary to make the method work. Personally, I think that the notes and print functions should have been more fleshed out before release. I find it very frustrating to have to use temporary kluges or two versions of the software to do such basic functions.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49782#Comment_49782

Personally, I think that the notes and print functions should have been more fleshed out before release. I find it very frustrating to have to use temporary kluges or two versions of the software to do such basic functions.

In an ideal situation, I agree. But I suspect that Logos needed to make the release date to increase capital so they could continue development. In that case, I would rather go through the kludge then have Logos never release for want of cash.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49791#Comment_49791

But I suspect that Logos needed to make the release date to increase capital so they could continue development. In that case, I would rather go through the kludge then have Logos never release for want of cash.

If your assumption is correct, I would agree. And it is not as if I have a model of feature interdependencies.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49798#Comment_49798

In another thread I mentioned recently the concept of "public beta" which I have seen several companies use of late,. Devonthink and 1Password both use public betas (though 1Password has just come out of public beta). In both these cases, the older, mature product was still sold and in use, but the public beta was available for download/purchase. If you visit the forums of these products, you will note very quickly that many, if not most have already begun to move to the public beta version. Yet the public beta version is not feature complete. You will even find buttons that don't do anything yet!

In general, I think this is a good win/win model and I like the term "public beta". It allows users to participate in the the final development stage of a product with the appropriate expectations of a beta product, but also allows those who are more conservative to stick with the tried and true older version should they wish to do so. By allowing users to participate, it garners the effects of what the article speaks about that Bob tweeted.

I think that if a software company wants to do this, one of the important things is to keep the support and resources up for the older Gold release and not abandon it until the new product truly replaces the old one. I have had some concerns that the older Mac 1.2.2 training videos, albeit there weren't many, have disappeared. Or at least I can't find them. For fairly new Logos Mac users, this is not a good thing if they cannot use L4 Alpha x or the Windows version in a virtual machine.

All in all, I think it is a good thing and in general, I would guess we get better software developed faster.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49688#Comment_49688

If in fact Logos is going to be in "constant beta" then I won't last long around here.

Kevin,

remember L3? It was a beta download for....hmmmm all it's life? Up to V4 I had the "Beta 3" installed [:D]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49863#Comment_49863

I was one of the early angry-people the day the blog announced L4. And I still would argue that

the issue wasn't the software. It was the attitude of Logos. On the one hand, they go to tremendous

lengths to press the edge of technology, respond to customers, and so forth. And on the other,

they delight in keeping customers in the dark as long as feasible, until the customers are at

just the right boiling point. It seems like it would be a whole lot easier just to keep customers

informed. If Logos had said L4 is pretty close to ready and for Christmas how about helping

out and hey, it's a good deal too. Well, now, I'd be thrilled.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49688#Comment_49688

If in fact Logos is going to be in "constant beta" then I won't last long around here.

Yeah, I was taken aback by this statement as well. I am in agreement with you, Kevin, although it depends on what Bob meant by his statement. If he meant that L4, being a released product but in a constant beta stage, I will not be lasting long. If it is a model as always been (such as what was done in L3...and I suspect from his statement that this is not what he means), then that is a different story.

I might be focused wrong but my understanding of the complaining has less to do with the new look and style and more to do with the excitement of downloading L4 with no understanding that

1. The download would be the biggest any program has ever asked to download...and without giving the unsuspecting downloader the information he/she needs to be prepared

2. L4 was still in beta form (and still is today)

I would argue that if on day 1 (not day 21) this information was released, most people who have complained, would not have complained. The first 21 days of L4, I was saving the data and reformating my machine on my spare time as a result of crashes due to installing L4.

When I finally got everything working again, and L4 installed, it ran just as I expected from the information I had...and I love L4 just as I knew I would, not having any problem with change in style or look.

As I understand now, these two issues mentioned above have been addressed. But they were real issues the first month of L4.

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49964#Comment_49964

"Constant Beta" is potentially negative until perceived feature parity is achieved between L4 and L3 (and with L4 for Mac).

"Constant Beta" is potentially positive after feature parity is achieved because that is an indication of aggressive development of new features.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49978#Comment_49978

I love to test beta software. Right now I am enrolled in beta tests for about four different products and have other beta software installed that is so good I use it for most of the work I do in those programs.

What I want on a program that has to work for me because I have to get work done is that they might choose to rush out some new feature with this beta all the time mentality that will break it at just the wrong time. With the new update feature in L4 it just updates and being a guy who loves living on the edge, I always greet the little blue box in the tray with excitement

Sadly, now the excitement is "will it finally improve the speed of this program" instead of "wow what new feature is in here today."

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49863#Comment_49863

If in fact Logos is going to be in "constant beta" then I won't last long around here.

Kevin,

remember L3? It was a beta download for....hmmmm all it's life? Up to V4 I had the "Beta 3" installed

Yep. I do. But in that case the beta was always smooth and fast. Not yet the case for L4.

Edward hyndman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49985#Comment_49985

Here are some other thoughts regarding L4 and its release and the effect of not having "parity" of features with L3

At present, though I have L3 and L4 on my computer, (and I do not have excessive slowness issues with L4), because my notes, verse lists, prayer lists, etc are only accessible in L3, and because copy/paste and print are more restricted on L4, and L4 notes do seem to have some bug issues, I cannot actually use L4 for my work. I can run it so as to update it and have a poke around, but it is not going to be my bible study software for some time... maybe 6, 8, 12 months?

The effect of this is that while L4 requires some new adaption and learning, I am not using it enough in work to find out how to use it or to see any great feature for which I think it might be worth holding out, instead when I am running it I am comparing it with how easily I use L3 and all the great features of L3 which L4 does not (yet) have.

So one effect of "public beta" may be to make the newer program look weaker.

There is another, longer term background concern. Logos have certainly made a new departure in L4. It may well be a good business move. But here we have to decide a longer term investment for ourselves. What if, as features from L3 get added back into L4 we find that they do not measure up to L3? What if notes never can replace L3 notes, L4 verse lists cannot do what L3 verse lists could do? They may well do, but we don't know, yet. So we wait. But at some point we will have to decide if L4 is really a departure to a different "audience" than our ministry. Despite the years of information we have added to our logos 3 versions, if we really think L4 will not do the work we need, we will have to look for an alternative as at some point a discontinued product will be less supported. That is the source of some of the consternation at the moment from our point of view.

This may sound (having re-read it) like a moan or something, but it is not. I really believe that properly understanding the causes of customers' responses is vital to resolving them, and its taken me time to work out some of the factors here myself. I hope L4 will improve to the point where I can be using it day to day, but right now, even with the interface and features, it is simply easier and in some specific places neccessary to use L3.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49954#Comment_49954

And on the other, they delight in keeping customers in the dark as long as feasible, until the customers are at just the right boiling point.

Sorry -- that's not our intention. Until Logos 4, we've run almost every beta publicly, and we're right up front about most things we're doing. (Pre-pub is a pretty good advance notice system of what books we're doing, for example!)

Past experience has shown us, though, that there's a cost to dribbling a product out in public beta. For one things, sales of the existing product dry up when people anticipate a new one, even if you promise free updates for a period. (But it's hard to predict when the beta will end, which makes it hard to even make that promise.)

In the past we've ended a very public beta process with barely enough cash to make payroll. (Years ago -- that wasn't an issue this time.)

We did toy with naming Logos 4 something completely new -- because to us it is in many ways a v1.0 product. It's like the original Mac following the Apple IIe. It's not just the next release in a series, though, like the Mac, it is the "next flagship product." While we are improving and adding to Logos 4 constantly, I don't see this period as an extended beta, I see it as a finished v1.0 product with constant updates and improvements. I can see how, from the perspective of a Logos 3 user looking for feature parity, it's not fully baked. But someone with no Logos 3 experience would see it differently.

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.

However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users. So a lot of our thought about Logos 4 -- and about when it was "better" than Logos 3 -- had to do with meeting the needs of tomorrow's user. Because shipping Logos 4 takes NOTHING away from Logos 3 users -- you still have Logos 3, and can wait for Logos 4. But for new users, the question is, was Logos 4 yet a more compelling purchase / experience than Logos 3? And our belief was that it was, with easier installation, less confusing activation, simpler, streamlined interface, etc. The fact that sentence diagramming and prayer lists weren't there yet didn't outweigh the benefits of not frustrating new customers with our 2001-era interface and installation process.

I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them. I'm just trying to provide some explanation of the subjective and complicated decision making process. I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.

-- Bob

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50276#Comment_50276

I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.

Bob, as a long-time user of Logos, I believe you are moving in the right direction by going after new users. My stuff is only as valuable as the software that runs it. If Logos dies, so does my ability to keep what I have. So go after the new customers. Please.

No there's not going to be a 'but' here.

I think Logos 4 is a better upgrade to Logos 3 than Libronix was to Logos 2. After the initial shock, Logos4 is much more intuitive and easy to move around in, find things and get things done.

I would like to see a bit more Logos staff presence here in the forums. I think it would alleviate a lot of anxiety (which sometimes is expressed as frustration), and build confidence in the company. But I'd much rather have you guys working on the program than talking about working on the program.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50282#Comment_50282

Richard,

i thought you worked for Logos, just kidding.

You have put in some serious hours answering everyone's questions (including some of mine). Thank you Richard !

Thanks BobP, for your honesty!

Thanks Logos staff for the new product and in advance for the upcoming polished product!

Praiser

To all the Logos 4 users out there who are complaining about the new Logos 4 not having all the features of L3. I do appreciate the new features that Logos 4 has, I also realize that it is missing some of the features of L3.
I like the fact that L3 is separate from Logos 4 and can still be used for those features that we feel we can't be without.
Logos 4 has many of the features coming that will rival if not surpass those of L3.

To those who still seem to be sour on the new format, have you taken time to consider that the RESOURCES in the upgrades that are offered also work in L3? They are some terrific resources at some terriffic discounts. In your case, think of it this way, forget the fact that the new Logos 4 platform is included and price out the resources that you are interested in that are in the upgrades being offered. With the introductory specials in many cases, the upgrade price is less than one of the commentary sets that are included. Along with that comes the Logos 4 platform that will only get better with time.

At first I upgraded to Logos 4 Platinum from Scholars Gold. The commentaries that I did not have would cost me way more than my upgrade price. As a matter of fact, one of the commentary sets (that was on my wish list) was more than my upgrade price, not including all the others that were included. That alone cinched the upgrade deal. After printing out the comparison between Platinum and Portfolio and calculating what it contained that I would really be interested in that I did not have. I realized that the items on my wish list that were included in the upgrade would cost me $2,000 more than my Portfolio upgrade price! So one month after upgrading to Logos 4 Platinum I have upgraded to Logos 4 Portfolio. I couldn't let the great deal get away. Also what I found was that there were some awesome books included that I didn't know that I really wanted, until I got them.

Thank you Bob and the Logos Team for working diligently to give us great research products! And thank you too, for the great new upgrade offers.

Glenn F

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50276#Comment_50276

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.

I have been a Logos 3 user since 2006 when I discovered this marvelous product that would allow me to tote a complete Seminary library in my truck while on the road. I don't get to attend a actual live worship service anywhere near as often as I would like. I also do not have access to Pastors and Ministers for counseling necessarily when I have a question. Logos has been my resource to get the answers and advice to my questions. I sometimes would not do a new library search because my old laptop was slow to return results. When I heard about Logos 4 from the sales dept. I ordered the upgrade Scholars Silver to L4 Scholars Silver on the spot, sight unseen, no questions asked. I should have asked a few questions tho. Maybe the sales department might have warned me about the steeeeeep system requirements for the new engine. I was still eager anyway until I saw the actual sys requirements and my video card was the biggest loser and stumbling block to running L4.

I complained or rather whined would be a better term to tech support about having such requirements for a largely text based system. But in all things God has been generous and kind to me. He used my Dad who is an atheist to provide the means for a brand new top of the line laptop specifically to be able to run L4.

Praise God! I have never been more pleased. While there are changes that can and should be made to the program, I am very happy with the changes it has brought to my Bible study. I am still exploring and learning to use it as I should but I for one think it is a great improvement and look forward to the coming features and changes in L4. By doing things this way we get a more direct voice in the end product and don't have to wait years to see the features and changes we want. I can totally sympathize with the users that are having performance issues. I struggled with performance issues on an old laptop from the time I purchased Logos 3.

I'm rambling I know, I just wanted to put my two cents in and let Bob Pritchett and the entire development team and staff at Logos that I am one very pleased customer who has been using there product for over 3 years and have no intentions of abandoning ship over a few teething problems.

I'll just climb down off my soap box now and take my meds.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50276#Comment_50276

I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.

Bob,

thanks for chiming in...as always; it's a real eye opener when we get to hear the behind-the-scenes info.

Thanks for a great product....your efforts are appreciated, even by this V3/V4 user. [Y]

Keep doing what you're doing to keep Logos healthy!

Joel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/49703#Comment_49703

I laughed at the salesman who promised me the upgrade to Vista would come free in the mail.

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP. Win 7 is obviously better, but it's sad watching people jumping on the, "I haven't used Vista but hate it anyway." bandwagon. My entire family is perfectly happy with it, and it has caused us all about as many problems as XP has, which is very few.

But I digress... back to talking about L4 I love it. I'm glad this thread has suddenly appeared, because I'm also getting a kick out of using it and really wanted to say something about it. I've so far only made suggestions on this forum, but I'd like to say 'good job' to Logos, because L4 has struck an excellent balance, making bible study both simple and deep. If a goal of the Logos crew is to bring God glory through the creation of bible study tools, then in my mind they've certainly done that well with L4.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50276#Comment_50276

And on the other, they delight in keeping customers in the dark as long as feasible, until the customers are at just the right boiling point.

Sorry -- that's not our intention. Until Logos 4, we've run almost every beta publicly, and we're right up front about most things we're doing. (Pre-pub is a pretty good advance notice system of what books we're doing, for example!)

Past experience has shown us, though, that there's a cost to dribbling a product out in public beta. For one things, sales of the existing product dry up when people anticipate a new one, even if you promise free updates for a period. (But it's hard to predict when the beta will end, which makes it hard to even make that promise.)

In the past we've ended a very public beta process with barely enough cash to make payroll. (Years ago -- that wasn't an issue this time.)

We did toy with naming Logos 4 something completely new -- because to us it is in many ways a v1.0 product. It's like the original Mac following the Apple IIe. It's not just the next release in a series, though, like the Mac, it is the "next flagship product." While we are improving and adding to Logos 4 constantly, I don't see this period as an extended beta, I see it as a finished v1.0 product with constant updates and improvements. I can see how, from the perspective of a Logos 3 user looking for feature parity, it's not fully baked. But someone with no Logos 3 experience would see it differently.

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.

However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users. So a lot of our thought about Logos 4 -- and about when it was "better" than Logos 3 -- had to do with meeting the needs of tomorrow's user. Because shipping Logos 4 takes NOTHING away from Logos 3 users -- you still have Logos 3, and can wait for Logos 4. But for new users, the question is, was Logos 4 yet a more compelling purchase / experience than Logos 3? And our belief was that it was, with easier installation, less confusing activation, simpler, streamlined interface, etc. The fact that sentence diagramming and prayer lists weren't there yet didn't outweigh the benefits of not frustrating new customers with our 2001-era interface and installation process.

I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them. I'm just trying to provide some explanation of the subjective and complicated decision making process. I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.

-- Bob

Bob, it is my experience as I show Logos4 to potential new users, they get more excited about it than they did about LDLS3. I think a lot has to do with the "look", but honestly, I think that you guys succeeded in making the learning curve a little less steep. I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve. The iPhone support goes a long way toward picking up new customers as well.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50348#Comment_50348

Bob, it is my experience as I show Logos4 to potential new users, they get more excited about it than they did about LDLS3. I think a lot has to do with the "look", but honestly, I think that you guys succeeded in making the learning curve a little less steep. I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve. The iPhone support goes a long way toward picking up new customers as well.

I think as well that the tighter integration of visuals has gone a long way towards appealing towards the larger market. Let's face it, the vast majority of potential users are not scholars. Yet, when when you read Bible software comparisons, a lot of the reasons to choose one package over another is often scholarly based. Now, I'm not saying that we should "dumb down" Logos Bible software, but the reality is that most users don't care or know how to use academically orientied stuff. They want some good commentaries, cross references, pictures, maps, etc. Combine this with multiple platforms (i.e. iPhone, Mac), you have a great combination.

I think the danger is that Bible software becomes the domain of academics and can even be a bit snobbish. It really grinds my carrots when I read academics slam Logos by claiming that a lot of what Logos offers shouldn't appeal to people and then they go on about some elite resource that they have. The truth of the matter is what they are bragging about having is probably something I want for my studies, but I know the vast majority of my friends don't care about half of what I now own on Logos and other Bible software programmes.

The best scenario is to keep a strong team of academics involved to keep Logos on the cutting edge, while keeping it within the grasp of everyone else. I think Logos 4 does this very well. Kudos for Bob and the team for what you are doing. I can guarantee you that others in the Bible software world are taking note of some of the cutting edge things you are doing like multiple platforms, cloud computing, developing a truckload of resources, etc. They are either taking note believing that their current strategy is correct, or they are going to come up with similar innovative ideas.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50276#Comment_50276

Bob,

Thanks for your comments and for interacting with us. I have been very critical but I see a positive upside to Logos 4. So thanks for trying to let us understand what has, is and will be going on.

While we are improving and adding to Logos 4 constantly, I don't see this period as an extended beta, I see it as a finished v1.0 product with constant updates and improvements. I can see how, from the perspective of a Logos 3 user looking for feature parity, it's not fully baked. But someone with no Logos 3 experience would see it differently.

I would disagree with your belief that new customers would see things differently. There are a few things that new customers will miss greatly. Printing is a key one, with great limitations there. And the overall performance on many systems. I would bet there are more than a few new customers who were like me frustrated with the performance. It is better in the beta of 4.0a, but still not yet up to the speed of many other Bible software applications or v. 3.

J. Morris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50276#Comment_50276

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4.

However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.

I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users.

It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos. Between L3ers moving to L4 and L3/L4 users purchasing add-ons and prepubs (I'd imagine new-users are not near as likely to do this) I'm surprised "we" are ONLY "pretty well balanced" in revenue generation.

-You'd have to also take into account the word-of-mouth advertising that L3 users moving to L4 will generate. All those things added together ought to significantly outweigh ALL New-Users. IMO (always a chance I don't know what I'm talking about)

I've heard a few times now about how L4 is "focused" on New-Users, but then how us L3 "old timers" shouldn't fret about it, "we're still pretty important."

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Just my rantings, but I think L4 is a great program and I look forward to it becoming even better. I just start to feel (somtimes) that those of us who have helped grow Logos (through our purchases) are now (or maybe just becoming) a second thought.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50328#Comment_50328

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP. Win 7 is obviously better, but it's sad watching people jumping on the, "I haven't used Vista but hate it anyway." bandwagon. My entire family is perfectly happy with it, and it has caused us all about as many problems as XP has, which is very few.

Yes, I can remember all of the negative comments about Windows ME which came on my old computer though I didn't experience those problems. The only problem I had with ME which finally drove me to install Xp was that it didn't display Syriac and Ethiopic properly. I suppose there are those who will always complain. I complain too. I don't think L4 is nearly on a par with L3 for my use though it has some very nice features L3 didn't have. I do, however, expect that this will be rectified and will therefore simply report the problems.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50434#Comment_50434

It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos.

It wouldn't surprise me when you think of the seminary student making their first purchase and minister's minimum base packagge being at least mid-range. If Logos does not succeed in the new users arena, add-ins and word-of-mouth dries up quite quickly. Then again, I may be biased because Logos 4 is the first version to handle differences in versification and canon sufficiently well that I don't feel like a second-class user.