I'm blown away at the power of L4: a skeptic repents

Amen! Luke 15:7!

It's gettin' more gooderer and gooderer every time I use it and I know nuttin' but improvements are coming on down to us...

Bob Pritchett just tweeted this: The case for un-perfected software: "if you aren't embarrassed by v1.0 you didn't release it early enough" http://bit.ly/7bHI4a

I read the article that link pointed to and was about to give a cheeky reply to Bob: "That's fine for v1.0, but not for 4.0..." But then read the article that article pointed to about interating rapidly based on real world feedback. And I can see how it's working here with Logos 4, so I'm more and more OK with them having released it in such an unfinished state. I am being dragged kicking and screaming into this era of the new software development methodology. The world at large hasn't bought into it yet, and a lot of unsuspecting users will not be happy with this model for the forseeable future, until we get a new generation of people who grew up with software being this way. I guess I'm dating myself. I'm one of the dinosaurs who cut my development teeth on The Mythical Man-Month and other such ancient classics.

But I still think Logos 4 is great and is only getting better with every release. So let's keep 'em coming. I'm still on SR7. When does 4.0a ship? I can't afford the time to be in permanent beta mode all the time so I'm not going to participate in the beta for that even though I did for 4.0.

The fact that (the unfinished) L4 was released just in time for Christmas, I suppose, is just a coincidence.  [;)]

Philip Spitzer said:

We could have it one of two ways. Logos could wait until add ducks are in a row and the product is finely tuned,  and we are left with whatever they give us for a long time. Or, they can release it early in the process, and give us a chance to help steer the ship so that in 6 months to a year we have a product refined significantly by real user feedback. I'll go for the later.

Yeah, me too. But I do hope that after 6 months to a year of constant changes it settles down for a couple of years so we can use it productively without having to keep adapting to it as it changes out from under us. Then in a few years, I'll be willing to go through another 4-week learning curve. But I'd rather do the adaptation to change in big chunks like that than have a new surprise every two weeks. It gets overwhelming, the amount of change we have to deal with these days...in everything! I don't think it's good for our souls, as we can never rest. Isaiah 30:15

Rosie Perera said:

Philip Spitzer said:

We could have it one of two ways. Logos could wait until add ducks are in a row and the product is finely tuned,  and we are left with whatever they give us for a long time. Or, they can release it early in the process, and give us a chance to help steer the ship so that in 6 months to a year we have a product refined significantly by real user feedback. I'll go for the later.

 

Yeah, me too. But I do hope that after 6 months to a year of constant changes it settles down for a couple of years so we can use it productively without having to keep adapting to it as it changes out from under us. Then in a few years, I'll be willing to go through another 4-week learning curve. But I'd rather do the adaptation to change in big chunks like that than have a new surprise every two weeks. It gets overwhelming, the amount of change we have to deal with these days...in everything! I don't think it's good for our souls, as we can never rest. Isaiah 30:15

I bought my first personal computer in 1982. Things were in constant change way back then.

One of the first things that I learned in my research the year before I bought that computer (Osborne 64K 28 lb. portable computer for $1895.00), was never buy version 1.0 of anything. That is why dBase II never had a dBase 1.0.

I have been following the forum discussions since the release of L4.

This forum has provided the "refining" of FAQ's and techniques as well as identified problems and strengths. I will soon be ready to jump into the cold water of a new version of Logos after observing the discussions.

One of the other phrases I learned in researching my first computer purchase is "cutting edge is bleeding edge."

Being one of the complainers; I would be happy if L4 would stop crashing [^o)]

I never really enjoyed being a guinea pig.  I like it a lot less when I unknowingly pay for the experience.

-my 2 cents.

 

Daniel DeVilder said:

Btw, anyone know if the "drag to shortcuts" still causes crashes?

Daniel,

I'm not sure if it has been officially fixed or not, but you can copy shortcuts now. You can even launch programs from the computer desktop by dragging and dropping a shortcut to L4. I have an L3 shortcut in L4 temporarily (I hope), so I can do my prayer journaling and stuff like that.

If in fact Logos is going to be in "constant beta" then I won't last long around here.

@ Joe

I was bright enough to buy a new machine the day before Vista released, for the explicit purpose of not owning a machine with Vista.  I laughed at the salesman who promised me the upgrade to Vista would come free in the mail.   

If I'd had any inkling that Logos 4 was this new, I would have either bought Logos 3 intentionally or waited 6 to 12 months for the bugs to be worked out by someone else.

Arthur Balis said:

If I'd had any inkling that Logos 4 was this new, I would have either bought Logos 3 intentionally or waited 6 to 12 months for the bugs to be worked out by someone else.

You do know you can still run most of what you've purchased in Logos 3, right? They even have a script that will download everything into the right format for you so you don't have to dig through resources on the ftp site.

http://www.logos.com/support/downloads/ldls

MJ. Smith said:

Personally, I think that the notes and print functions should have been more fleshed out before release. I find it very frustrating to have to use temporary kluges or two versions of the software to do such basic functions.

In an ideal situation, I agree. But I suspect that Logos needed to make the release date to increase capital so they could continue development.  In that case, I would rather go through the kludge then have Logos never release for want of cash.

In another thread I mentioned recently the concept of "public beta" which I have seen several companies use of late,. Devonthink and 1Password both use public betas (though 1Password has just come out of public beta). In both these cases, the older, mature product was still sold and in use, but the public beta was available for download/purchase. If you visit the forums of these products, you will note very quickly that many, if not most have already begun to move to the public beta version. Yet the public beta version is not feature complete. You will even find buttons that don't do anything yet!

In general, I think this is a good win/win model and I like the term "public beta". It allows users to participate in the the final development stage of a product with the appropriate expectations of a beta product, but also allows those who are more conservative to stick with the tried and true older version should they wish to do so. By allowing users to participate, it garners the effects of what the article speaks about that Bob tweeted.

I think that if a software company wants to do this, one of the important things is to keep the support and resources up for the older Gold release and not abandon it until the new product truly replaces the old one. I have had some concerns that the older Mac 1.2.2 training videos, albeit there weren't many, have disappeared. Or at least I can't find them. For fairly new Logos Mac users, this is not a good thing if they cannot use L4 Alpha x or the Windows version in a virtual machine.

All in all, I think it is a good thing and in general, I would guess we get better software developed faster.

 

I was one of the early angry-people the day the blog announced L4. And I still would argue that

the issue wasn't the software. It was the attitude of Logos. On the one hand, they go to tremendous

 lengths to press the edge of technology, respond to customers, and so forth. And on the other,

they delight in keeping customers in the dark as long as feasible, until the customers are at

just the right boiling point. It seems like it would be a whole lot easier just to keep customers

informed.  If Logos had said L4 is pretty close to ready and for Christmas how about helping

out and hey, it's a good deal too. Well, now, I'd be thrilled.