I'm blown away at the power of L4: a skeptic repents

Page 5 of 6 (109 items) « First ... < Previous 2 3 4 5 6 Next >
This post has 108 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 1:29 PM

George Somsel:

Mark Barnes:
I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.

Perhaps they really didn't know.  I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information.  It seems to have been on a need to know basis.

I, like you George, am willing to give the benefit of the doubt because while, like all people, they have made mistakes, they have never demonstrated a penchant for outright deception.  Unfortunately, some do not take that approach and prefer to assume the worst of our brothers and sisters at Logos.   That is truly disheartening to me... 

 

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 13405
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 1:38 PM

George Somsel:

Mark Barnes:
I'm sure the staff knew L4 was coming soon, but my conversations with sales staff the morning L4 released were exactly the same. They didn't know the launch date until it launched, and knew no more information than I did (actually, less). I consider this to be a mistake by TPTB, but sales staff were definately kept largely in the dark.

Perhaps they really didn't know.  I was in the beta program and know for a fact that only those who were verified bloggers and who intended to blog the release were given that information.  It seems to have been on a need to know basis.

I realise it was on a need to know basis. My point was that of all the people who need to know, your sales staff come near the top of the list. At the absolute minimum I would have expected them to have a thorough briefing the day before release. I rang at 6:30am on the day of release and the staff knew nothing apart from what was on the website.

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 1:47 PM

Mark Barnes:
I realise it was on a need to know basis. My point was that of all the people who need to know, your sales staff come near the top of the list. At the absolute minimum I would have expected them to have a thorough briefing the day before release. I rang at 6:30am on the day of release and the staff knew nothing apart from what was on the website.

Having been on the beta, and seeing the roll-out coming with the count-down, I was surprised that sales didn't know more than they actually did. But they didn't, and in the first couple of days communicated at least some incorrect information. They were brought up to speed quickly, but it was a bit surprising to me how little they knew initially.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 1:53 PM

Mark Barnes:
I realise it was on a need to know basis. My point was that of all the people who need to know, your sales staff come near the top of the list. At the absolute minimum I would have expected them to have a thorough briefing the day before release. I rang at 6:30am on the day of release and the staff knew nothing apart from what was on the website.

Things don't always function the way we think they should.  I know the morph search doesn't function the way I think it should.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1141
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 1:53 PM

I can confirm that same thing about Sales being "in the dark" until launch.  It was hard to believe that they really didn't know what the beta tester-bloggers knew.

Posts 2977
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 2:48 PM

Joan Korte:

I can confirm that same thing about Sales being "in the dark" until launch.  It was hard to believe that they really didn't know what the beta tester-bloggers knew.

Yeah, even a few days after launch I had to teach them how unlock worked. They thought that I would still be getting an unlock script in the mail. It was a fruitful conversation for her

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 42
Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 3:42 PM

Difficult question to answer Jacob since there is a lot I don't know. What leads me to think L4 conceptually different is not missing features by themselves, but the way L4 seems to work (as it stands) and the comments of developers on the forums. There seems an intention to present an essentially new sw aimed stongly at a new user audience who is not already doing close Bible Study. Coupled with comments re features like nested pop-ups, and with what seems to me to be a different approach to presenting/printing arrangements within the program, I am guessing, (it is only a guess) that logos will have to balance in favour of  a kind of "easy - level - user" need. (Not a bad thing ofcourse, one criticism of L3 is that it is complex to use well). I dont know this just as I did not realise it fully with MM at the time. Perhaps another factor in my thinking is that MM had a similar "upgrade/beta/new-product" release at the time with similar responses.

The final factor is "wont work for me". That of course depends more on me than Logos :) I am learning I am not a usual user. I seem to require printing and make my own use of the notes and verse lists and prayer-lists in ways others dont. Will L4 be as usable for those things? I simply dont know. Thats why I was looking for more on the concept behind L4.

 

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 3:56 PM

Edward hyndman:
There seems an intention to present an essentially new sw aimed stongly at a new user audience who is not already doing close Bible Study.

I'm not sure that's the case. Yes, L4 works differently than L3, and it's easier on the eye and more intuitive, but that doesn't mean it's less powerful. In fact, I'm finding it giving me more, and doing so more easily. Logos has not abandoned loyal users, or designed a program without them in mind. In fact, as a long-time user of Logos, I'm very, very happy with L4 (even with it's current short-comings).

As I've said in another thread, for me the adjustment from L3 to L4 was easier than the adjustment from L2 to L3. L3 had some very powerful features, but they were very difficult to use. And while L4 has some things missing that I wish were present (SRA's and PRA's), I don't miss them that much, and certainly not enough to make me use L3 (which I still have installed, BTW).

I'd encourage you to learn the new tool, and to try to use it the way it was designed. After that improvise. Like playing Jazz, first you learn the new scale (and it feels clunky at first) but after you learn it, you can improvise in a way that works. So watch the videos, read the WIKI, look for tips, and try it as designed first. Then see if you can make it do what the developers didn't consider. You may find L4 both easier and more powerful than L3, as I have.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 42
Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 4:04 PM

ahh the pastor's dilema; I want the disciples of tomorrow to be better and smarter than me, just not while im still teaching them!

Big Smile

Posts 42
Edward hyndman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 4:07 PM

all fair points Richard. I am waiting and seeing.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 4:08 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
As I've said in another thread, for me the adjustment from L3 to L4 was easier than the adjustment from L2 to L3. L3 had some very powerful features, but they were very difficult to use. And while L4 has some things missing that I wish were present (SRA's and PRA's), I don't miss them that much, and certainly not enough to make me use L3 (which I still have installed, BTW).

Surely you jest.  I didn't experience any significant problem transitioning from L2 to L3 while I'm still finding the morph search impossible.  Yes, L4 has some nice features not in L3, but until it takes care of notes and gets the morph search to operate correctly it isn't useful for more than a reader.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 4:17 PM

George Somsel:
Surely you jest.

No I don't. I'm a Calvinist Wink

I had problems with the loss of the Library browser from 1 & 2 and found the home page mystifyingly intrusive. It was much better to turn it off. I could get layouts to work the way I wanted and solved some of my other issues using SRA's and PRA's.

The CBV severely reduced my ability to import into WordPerfect via a macro, and required me to redo the way I copy/pasted Bible verses.

The abandonment of Graeca and Graeca 2 (as well as Hebraica), and embracing Unicode, made working in Greek/Hebrew very difficult in WordPerfect and impossible to copy Greek or Hebrew directly from Libronix (this is a known issue with WordPerfect, but it was a tough adjustment).

All my NIV notes had to be moved and reassigned to their proper place by hand. This took hours.

As for L4, I never used morph searches enough to miss them, or to give an opinion on how L4 handles them, so no comment.

Notes for me work fine, and I'm looking forward to importing my notes from Libronix.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 4:21 PM

George Somsel:
but until it takes care of notes and gets the morph search to operate correctly it isn't useful for more than a reader.

For those willing to use morph search the way logos intends (aka phonetic typing) I believe it does work (If someone who enters text using the built in method cannot get it to search please let me know so I can shut up :-) )

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 4:39 PM

Philip Spitzer:
For those willing to use morph search the way logos intends (aka phonetic typing) I believe it does work (If someone who enters text using the built in method cannot get it to search please let me know so I can shut up :-) )

Come on, guys (and gals), give it to him.  I want to see him try to get the egg off his face.  I can't do it because I said I wouldn't, but that doesn't stop you.  In the meantime, I'll do my morph searching in L3.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 4:49 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

George Somsel:
Surely you jest.

No I don't. I'm a Calvinist Wink

I had problems with the loss of the Library browser from 1 & 2 and found the home page mystifyingly intrusive. It was much better to turn it off. I could get layouts to work the way I wanted and solved some of my other issues using SRA's and PRA's.

The CBV severely reduced my ability to import into WordPerfect via a macro, and required me to redo the way I copy/pasted Bible verses.

I'm a Calvinist too, and I do jest.  The image of the dour Calivnist is a myth.  The library browser?  I had mine fixed along the left side of my screen, but I can't say I missed it at all.  I definitely turned offf the home page mui pronto.  As for the switch to unicode, I was glad for that.  When I copy bible verses I do a <ctrl-c> and a <ctrl-v> so CPV isn't really of any use -- I think my method is every bit as simple.  I love workspaces and have many.  They save a lot of work opening up the appropriate resources (and notes) and arranging them.  I thought workspaces were a great idea.  In L4 you can't make a link to a resource within a note so what kind of notes are those?  To do a morph search you need to enter all the correct abbreviations, say an incantation over it and cross your fingers to get it to work.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2396
Forum MVP
John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 4:56 PM

Try the search using the westminster morphology.. it may be a problem with the BHS/WIVU. Of course I could be wrong....

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 6:13 PM

JohnFidel:

Try the search using the westminster morphology.. it may be a problem with the BHS/WIVU. Of course I could be wrong....

I don't know to whom you are responding, but I do use Westminster 4.2 morph.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5573
Forum MVP
Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 6:30 PM

George Somsel:
I'm a Calvinist too, and I do jest.  The image of the dour Calivnist is a myth.

You're jesting about being a Calvinist. I should have guessed. [Not: I deliberately wrongly exegeted what you wrote.]

In college days I remember reading an interesting chapter in an American History book where he challenged the idea that the Puritans were Puritanical. Good read.

As for the rest. I was only talking about my experience of change from L2 to L3 and from L3 to L4. YMMV, and apparently does.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 18912
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 9:15 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

Edward hyndman:
There seems an intention to present an essentially new sw aimed stongly at a new user audience who is not already doing close Bible Study.

I'm not sure that's the case. Yes, L4 works differently than L3, and it's easier on the eye and more intuitive, but that doesn't mean it's less powerful. In fact, I'm finding it giving me more, and doing so more easily.

Yes, ditto here! I keep learning how to do stuff easily in L4 that I either never knew how to do before in L3 or kind of knew about but never bothered because it was too complicated. I have recently watched John Fidel's excellent video on searching, and I am off to the races!

Posts 692
Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 12 2009 5:50 AM

Add my name to the list of those who have become more impressed with Logos 4 as I dig deeper into it. I was expecting a souped up version of L3. Now that I'm completely over the fact that it is not L3, I'm beginning to see that L4 is much better than L3. The Library feature alone  in L4 is so powerful that I no longer feel the need to go through every single resource I have, putting each of them in some sort of collection, in order to know all the different types or resources I have and the subject matter each covered - as I did in L3. So I will refrain from making any  "it's not like L3" judgments...so far I am discovering the L4 provides me with a lot more than L3 and I'm only begun to scratch the surface.

__________

15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)

Page 5 of 6 (109 items) « First ... < Previous 2 3 4 5 6 Next > | RSS