Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)
Comments
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Dan DeVilder said:
But I will not send a pre-pub message at the SRP.
I will not buy at the SRP, others are welcome to.
Dan DeVilder said:All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors.
Sorry, you may have misunderstood, i was not advising others not to buy just myself. Please feel free to go ahead with any purchase, it is your money not mine[:)].
Dan DeVilder said:Glad Baker is coming on board. Not glad the price is what it is.
To this i will say an Amen. I more or less said that in my previous post[:D]. Every blessings
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:Terry Poperszky said:
I would rather report it.
Terry, I am certainly not for any hate-speech but... reading your words about reporting is really chilling and reminds me some really not nice days here in Europe. Report to whom? To Logos? They see it. To the government? Wow, I don't even think further... I am for using a respectful language but trying to be politically correct all the time makes us overreact sometimes. Sorry. It might be I am too sensitive for that kind of things because of our past. If it feels this way, I apologize in advance.
Sorry, different cultures, different sensitivities. My apologies. If you click on the more, button to the right of the post, it gives you the option of reporting forum abuse. I do consider referring to the democratically elected President of the United States of America as a "Dictator" and as the government officials as Mob Henchmen, hate speech. It is not designed, to facilitate communication or dialog, it is meant to inflame emotions and while not illegal in our country (nor should it be) definitely has no place on this forum.
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Ted Hans said:Dan DeVilder said:
Glad Baker is coming on board. Not glad the price is what it is.
To this i will say an Amen. I more or less said that in my previous post
. Every blessingsTed.
Since it is already a second publisher doing the same thing it would really be nice to hear from Logos on that matter. It must have a reason and I don't believe it is Logos "invention" (the pricing of the Zondervan and now Baker prepubs).
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
Since it is already a second publisher doing the same thing it would really be nice to hear from Logos on that matter. It must have a reason and I don't believe it is Logos "invention" (the pricing of the Zondervan and now Baker prepubs).
Look what is happening with Amazon (Kindle) e-books and the publishers forcing the price point up. I would be surprised to find that this is Logos at work.
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
Since it is already a second publisher doing the same thing it would really be nice to hear from Logos on that matter. It must have a reason and I don't believe it is Logos "invention" (the pricing of the Zondervan and now Baker prepubs).
I suspect the same here, as Dan informed us that Zondervan was responsible for setting the price of their product on the Logos blog.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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When Logos pricing is higher than buying a print copy it makes the decision very easy. I don't think Logos is being fair to say that we should order "to send a message that we want to see Baker books." Of course we want to see Baker books but for most of these titles Logos "functionality" doesn't add anything so if I really want it (I I would have to really want it to pay full retail) I would need to consider whether to keep it (Logos format) or just buy it, read it, and then sell it, give it away, etc.
Maybe we've been spoiled by the price of Logos sets over the years but publishers have inflated their prices knowing that there will be large discounts offered by retailers. It therefore seems unfair to be charging Logos users full price.
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Part of the problem with one big gorilla, so to speak, in a market is that part of the motivation to moderate prices and maximize customer service has/is being reduced. Examples like Microsoft, GM, and Bank of America (I think-you get the point) show how market dominance can be both a blessing and curse in an open market environment. Constant customer support and acceptance of a given companies product vision, without regards to outside market forces, may seem beneficial to all involved at first but over time there is price to be paid. I wonder if we will start to pay that price?
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A couple of observations:
1) In talking with an editor on another forum, he adressed the misconception that E-books are vastly cheaper to produce than hard copies. The fact is that most of the cost does not go into the paper, ink and binding, but the actual researching, writing and editing. On top of this, continual tagging and editing takes a lof of time (human resouces as well as computerized) which adds to the cost not present in actual printing. (Althought, from what I hear, Logos has come a long way in that it has a system which can do most of the tagging and editing automatically - but I do not work for LOGOS, so if I am wrong, and am willing to be corrected)
2) Bob Pritchett, in his personal blog a while back, talk about how electronic resources will be getting more expensive because of the all the add things customers will be looking for in the future. It does not surprise me then that we are starting to see this happening.
Here is the link, and scroll down to the entry for December 10th, 2009 entitled "The future is now". : http://www.bobpritchett.com/blog/2009/12/
3) New deals are being struck with publishers. Part of the equation deals with distribution. Logos, like Apple in iTunes, would like to be the sole distributor of books written for the Logos system. This would mean a loss of income for smaller publishers that may have sold products through there bookstores. (Although, I don't know how this would effect Baker). Because of the loss of income, I could expect publishers asking for a great royality on the sale of their products through Logos. (Again, this is my understanding of the situation, and please correct me if I am wrong).
All of these things means that resources will become more expensive in the Logos system - rivaling their paper counterparts.
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I believe we have been spoiled, that being said think about the prepub model Logos has created. We the consumers pay for all development cost to produce a title, after all costs are covered then Logos produces the title. You of course noted in the new L4 base packages many past prepubs were dumped in packages for as little as1.00 per title, that originally cost hundreds of dollars in prepub at one time. The only way Logos can offer that price is if the royalities are next to nothing that they have to pay the publishers and their costs are covered by their customers. I believe publishers only allow this kind of royalty pricing in base packages or collections.
It seems that the new Zondervan and Baker model is to push out single title's for the higher dollar amount, than to take the royalty hit by allowing lower pricing in a collection and thus make considerably less money.
I think we may need to be prepared to pay more for electronic books that are just being published, say within the last 4 years or so, and are currently on bookstore shelves.
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BobbyTerhune said:
I think we may need to be prepared to pay more for electronic books that are just being published, say within the last 4 years or so, and are currently on bookstore shelves.
Plus, in a model that bypasses retailers (who have to manage inventory), there is no pressure to reduce prices on slow sellers or overbought best-sellers and no competition between retailers. So the only discounts we get are the discounts Logos offers from time to time. We've yet to see any permanent price reductions on older resources in Logos, as far as I know. I hope eventually the publishers will seek to maximize their electronic profits by matching price with demand, instead of just trying to protect the paper market, and then these high priced new releases will see a price reduction over time.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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BobbyTerhune said:
It seems that the new Zondervan and Baker model is to push out single title's for the higher dollar amount, than to take the royalty hit by allowing lower pricing in a collection and thus make considerably less money.
We really won't know what the Zondervan and Baker Books pricing model is until they start offering products in the Logos format. Will Zondervan and Baker Books sell to the public directly? Will the products show up being sold in stores and by third parties? Will we see discounted prices that indicate the margin between retail and wholesale pricing? I think we have to wait and see.
I am also not sure that we should assume the Logos pre pub prices (or future retail prices) are being strictly dictated by Zondervan or Baker Books. I suspect that Logos has some latitude in their pricing.
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Terry Poperszky said:
hate speech
"Hate speech" where?- why not just yell "racist"- your piety is showing- my comment was limited to the economic turmoil we are at the hands of the current admin and congress- and do not see a turn around for another year or so.
And it does have a direct connection to not being able to afford the "obvious" high prices of the Baker books.
Report it if you like- matters not either way.
End to responses
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David,
Both Zondervan with their Pradis product and Baker with their Lobronix product have sold to bookstores and other 3rd party online sellers. Dan Prichett said that Zondervan was driving the price that is being listed on the current prepub, and that he was waiting for Zondervan's answer for how to price the product for previous Pradis customers.
As far as what the pricing model is going to be, all I can go on is the current pricing model that we have before us in the prepub pages. Baker just got through putting out a number of collections that based on discounted retail paper prices were not that great of a price break either. For instance the Baker Theology Collection is worth 250.42 in discounted paper, the prepub price is 199.99 and after prepub is 279.95.
Don't get me wrong, I will most likely pay the price for the resources I need and can use, but I am under no false ideas about the price I'm paying compared to what it cost in paper. Books in Logos format are worth more to me and I'm willing to pay more to get that value.
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Ted Hans said:Dan DeVilder said:
All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors.
Sorry, you may have misunderstood i was not advising others not to buy just myself. Please feel free to go ahead with any purchase, it is your money not mine
.Ted, FYI, while I did read your post (as I read the whole page), I wasn't responding specifically to you. If anything, my response was to the blog and my gut feel. Just didn't want you to think I had taken you out of context--i wasn't addressing your comment specifically at all. At the same time, I was not unaware of your comments, either--and you always write fair evaluations! [:)]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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David Lowther said:BobbyTerhune said:
It seems that the new Zondervan and Baker model is to push out single title's for the higher dollar amount, than to take the royalty hit by allowing lower pricing in a collection and thus make considerably less money.
We really won't know what the Zondervan and Baker Books pricing model is until they start offering products in the Logos format. Will Zondervan and Baker Books sell to the public directly? Will the products show up being sold in stores and by third parties? Will we see discounted prices that indicate the margin between retail and wholesale pricing? I think we have to wait and see.
I am also not sure that we should assume the Logos pre pub prices (or future retail prices) are being strictly dictated by Zondervan or Baker Books. I suspect that Logos has some latitude in their pricing.
We indeed need to wait and see how Zondervan and Baker will price their products after the release (especially if they decide to also market them through other channels).
I believe that both companies are testing the market and want to see how far they can push it (offering books only at the SRP, offering books in high demand only as part of an otherwise worthless collection only designed to sell books that would not be otherwise considered). I did not purchase Baker's collections then or pre-ordered Zondervan SRP offerings (not to mention the matter of Pradis conversion/upgrade that is still not resolved) and I will buy Baker's new pre-pubs to send them a message.
Logos needs to be careful and not let the pre-pub system/concept become irrelevant (I don't know what role Logos is playing in the whole process but I doubt that they are the one setting the prices at SRP)
Not only Baker and Zondervan might frustrate Logos’ customer base that has been accustomed to getting deals through the pre-pub program and getting books cheaper than the print offerings, they could also damage the growth of the digital medium since frustrated customer are less likely to recommend their products to people in their circle of influence. The deals of the prepub system along with the convenience of the digital format were the two greatest arguments I used to “sell” Logos to potential customers.
Alain
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Bobby---thanks for some enlightening info
I DO feel a bit bad most of us are ragging about this. Not that that isn't valid, but I also imagine there is a lot of hard work that went into getting those rights and most of us throw wetblankets on it without much positive to say (myself included.)
Has anyone here ever been in ministry, pulled off a tough assignment/sermon/whatever only to have some well intentioned dragons make their little critique spiel?
Anyway, again, our critique IS valid and needs to be said. But I am self-reflecting that we are whining about price and all without really knowing much behind the scenes info, and without much acknowledgment that a threshold has been crossed with Baker, after much hard work! Thanks team Logos! I am personally glad to have Baker available to me with that wide a scope and a per-item availability!!! [Y]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Alain Maashe said:
The deals of the prepub system along with the convenience of the digital format were the two greatest arguments I used to “sell” Logos to potential customers.
I will say that i purchased WAY more from Baker (and others) BECAUSE of the pre-pub pricing than I normally would have. And if given the option, I have bought Logos' version over the paper version consistently.
But I only have so many dollars. If I am paying SRP no matter if it is pre-pub, or not, i will buy less often, and only when I need to.
I WONDER--what if Logos could strike a deal with IVP, getting their works for a cheaper deal. Then, I see a certain Dictionary or Commentary is cheaper in IVP, i will buy their version, rather than the higher priced Baker and Z product. If others did the same, that would create some competitive pricing reductions, perhaps.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Alain Maashe said:
I did not purchase Baker's collections then or pre-ordered Zondervan SRP offerings
Alain Maashe said:I will buy Baker's new pre-pubs to send them a message.
Hi Alain,
I trust you are well. I am not sure what you meant by "I will buy Baker's new pre-pubs to send them a message." By buying, do you mean you will be sending them a positive message of your interest in their product or did you mean not buying, thereby sending a message?
Kind Regards,
Ted.
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From my perspective it is not relevant in anyway the level of difficulty that went into making, copying, producing, or offering these products to the Logos community. IMO this is a product being offered at a price by a business whom seeks to make a profit with or without a theological veneer of Jesus's love. If one wants to purchase these prepub offerings that is fine, but to make excuses for what maybe framed as a form of price gouging is a different matter. The product remains of high quality and worth pursuing by those whom have their needs met. Yet there is, in my mind, a point where the theological veneer can be a mask for profiteering by any given company.
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Ted,
I am doing well and I trust everything is also going well for you
I forgot the "NOT" meaning not buying, thereby sending a message
I would indeed be sending the wrong message by buying [:D]
Alain
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Alain Maashe said:
Ted,
I am doing well and I trust everything is also going well for you
I forgot the "NOT" meaning not buying, thereby sending a message
I would indeed be sending the wrong message by buying
Alain
I am thankful for your little exchange, because I was a little lost in Alain's "logic" the first time around!! [:)]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan DeVilder said:Ted Hans said:Dan DeVilder said:
All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors.
Sorry, you may have misunderstood i was not advising others not to buy just myself. Please feel free to go ahead with any purchase, it is your money not mine
.Ted, FYI, while I did read your post (as I read the whole page), I wasn't responding specifically to you. If anything, my response was to the blog and my gut feel. Just didn't want you to think I had taken you out of context--i wasn't addressing your comment specifically at all. At the same time, I was not unaware of your comments, either--and you always write fair evaluations!
Sorry, not again i got this one wrong! My apologies, I pressed the "replied" next to your name on your previous post(comments) and it took me to my post so i thought you were responding to me. No offense meant - just hope i was not out of line with my comments to you in a public forum[:)].
Yours in Christ,
Ted.
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BobbyTerhune said:
Dan Prichett said that Zondervan was driving the price that is being listed on the current prepub, and that he was waiting for Zondervan's answer for how to price the product for previous Pradis customers.
I saw in the blog comments where Dan said, "We are working with Zondervan right now to talk through the issues of
the discount for Pradis users." I may have missed where he said that Zondervan was driving Logos' pre pub prices for Zondervan products. Do you know where that was mentioned?I am going to wait and see where we end up with pricing on Zondervan and Baker Books products. For now, I will keep Logos 3, Logos 4, and Pradis all installed and juggle as necessary.
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ReneAtchley said:
IMO this is a product being offered at a price by a business whom seeks to make a profit with or without a theological veneer of Jesus's love. If one wants to purchase these prepub offerings that is fine, but to make excuses for what maybe framed as a form of price gouging is a different matter.
Rene, if what you are judging to be probably true, IS in fact true, that is a problem! But what information is available to you that suggests that your charges are true? (Price gouging, veneer, etc). All I have to go in is that pre-pub price is the same as post-pub. And I don't like that. But I sure don't have more to go on, than that. I can compare Amazon all I want, and I do, and that informs decisions I make, but it says little to me about the motive of Baker, Zondervan, or Logos.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Dan,
I remember when Logos put out a CD with new books on it once or twice a year, Things have sure changed! I am really grateful for all the hard work that must have gone into getting Zondervan on board, and before that Continuum with all it's titles. I remember looking at commentary sets on my shelf and thinking, no way that will ever make it into Logos. But now we have every major commentary set available in Logos format, and for that I say a hearty thank you to Logos!
But I do believe higher prices while it does give us access to better books, also has the disadvantage of discouraging more books being developed because some titles that deserve publishing won't make the prepub cut because of price vs demand. Already there are over twenty prepubs that languish from 2007 & 2008. I think Logos tried to put hot sellers with titles that would never make the cut to get more books into Logos format and I think that has worked up to a point. After all how many 199.00 Baker collections can one afford, before it becomes cheaper in the end to just buy what you really need one at a time.
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David Lowther said:
We really won't know what the Zondervan and Baker Books pricing model is until they start offering products in the Logos format.
Baker has been one of Logos' publishing partners for years and if their pricing model is like it has been in the past their Logos retail packages will be heavily discounted. Their original collection can still be found on the internet for as low as $10, you can not even unlock ONE book in this collection by purchasing it directly from Logos. I personally have benifited from this price model as a consumer, but as Logos supporter I think this heavy of a discount is counterproductive to the long term viability of electronic publishing. So I can understand why Baker (probably with Logos' encouragement) has stopped dumping their Logos format books on the market. However, to be now listing books at full MSRP is going overboard in MOHO. Such a policy is just as counterproductive.
Zondervan, on the other hand, while they have never sold retail packages in Logos format has been in the electronic book publishing business for a long time. From their past record I think we can safely assume that their retail collections will be reasonably discounted. There should be some very attractive boxed products coming out in June.
With all this in mind, the people who are placing pre-orders at full MSRP are being played for the fool. Logos, Zondervan and Baker are taking no risk what so ever. Unless they can find enough people who are willing to purchase these books at 100% the book does not go into production and they lose nothing. The people who are placing these pre-orders however are taking all the risks. They are risking paying 100% for a product that very well may be heavily discounted in the future.
For my part I will take no risk with the money God has given me stewardship over. I am content to let other people pay out of the nose for these books and wait until they are a part of some Christmas special, some future Logos base product collection or a Zondervan or Baker retail product.
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David Lowther said:
I saw in the blog comments where Dan said, "We are working with Zondervan right now to talk through the issues of
the discount for Pradis users." I may have missed where he said that Zondervan was driving Logos' pre pub prices for Zondervan products. Do you know where that was mentioned?off hand I do not know where it is, but I also remember reading Dan's comments regarding Pradis users on this forum.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Alain Maashe said:
Ted,
I am doing well and I trust everything is also going well for you
I forgot the "NOT" meaning not buying, thereby sending a message
I would indeed be sending the wrong message by buying
Alain
Thanks Alain for the clarification.
I am doing well and currently reading a book by Robert R. Gonzales "Where Sin Abounds: The Spread of Sin and the Curse in Genesis with Special
Focus on the Patriarchal Narratives" The whole Genesis creation debate about sin and death being present before the fall. Robert R. Gonzales takes the tradition line that the presence of sin/death was due to the fall. Very refreshing.Ted
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David Lowther said:
I saw in the blog comments where Dan said, "We are working with Zondervan right now to talk through the issues of
the discount for Pradis users." I may have missed where he said that Zondervan was driving Logos' pre pub prices for Zondervan products. Do you know where that was mentioned?"What does this mean to you?
Don’t worry, the
finished product is exactly what you would expect. There’s nothing
different about the way the books are produced. They are still finished
by our people right here in our building the same way all our other
titles are produced. The difference is, they are Zondervan’s products,
so they determine the configurations, collections and prices" http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/09/zondervan_announces_partnership_with_logos_bible_software.htmlThe info you wanted.
Ted
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David,David Lowther said:BobbyTerhune said:Dan Prichett said that Zondervan was driving the price that is being listed on the current prepub, and that he was waiting for Zondervan's answer for how to price the product for previous Pradis customers.
I saw in the blog comments where Dan said, "We are working with Zondervan right now to talk through the issues of the discount for Pradis users." I may have missed where he said that Zondervan was driving Logos' pre pub prices for Zondervan products. Do you know where that was mentioned?
I thought I had read that somewhere, but it could have been my infrence from Dan's statement that, "Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch."
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