Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)

David Lowther said:

We really won't know what the Zondervan and Baker Books pricing model is until they start offering products in the Logos format.

Baker has been one of Logos' publishing partners for years and if their pricing model is like it has been in the past their Logos retail packages will be heavily discounted. Their original collection can still be found on the internet for as low as $10, you can not even unlock ONE book in this collection by purchasing it directly from Logos. I personally have benifited from this price model as a consumer, but as Logos supporter I think this heavy of a discount is counterproductive to the long term viability of electronic publishing. So I can understand why Baker (probably with Logos' encouragement) has stopped dumping their Logos format books on the market. However, to be now listing books at full MSRP is going overboard in MOHO. Such a policy is just as counterproductive.

Zondervan, on the other hand, while they have never sold retail packages in Logos format has been in the electronic book publishing business for a long time. From their past record I think we can safely assume that their retail collections will be reasonably discounted. There should be some very attractive boxed products coming out in June.

With all this in mind, the people who are placing pre-orders at full MSRP are being played for the fool. Logos, Zondervan and Baker are taking no risk what so ever. Unless they can find enough people who are willing to purchase these books at 100% the book does not go into production and they lose nothing. The people who are placing these pre-orders however are taking all the risks. They are risking paying 100% for a product that very well may be heavily discounted in the future.

For my part I will take no risk with the money God has given me stewardship over. I am content to let other people pay out of the nose for these books and wait until they are a part of some Christmas special, some future Logos base product collection or a Zondervan or Baker retail product.

David Lowther said:

BobbyTerhune said:

Dan Prichett said that Zondervan was driving the price that is being listed on the current prepub, and that he was waiting for Zondervan's answer for how to price the product for previous Pradis customers.

 

I saw in the blog comments where Dan said, "We are working with Zondervan right now to talk through the issues of the discount for Pradis users." I may have missed where he said that Zondervan was driving Logos' pre pub prices for Zondervan products. Do you know where that was mentioned?

 

I thought I had read that somewhere, but it could have been my infrence from Dan's statement that,  "Logos editions of Zondervan titles are new products that Zondervan is paying to develop from scratch."

Dan DeVilder said:

Rene, if what you are judging to be probably true, IS in fact true, that is a problem!  But what information is available to you that suggests that your charges are true?  (Price gouging, veneer, etc). All I have to go in is that pre-pub price is the same as post-pub.  And I don't like that.  But I sure don't have more to go on, than that.  I can compare Amazon all I want, and I do, and that informs decisions I make, but it says little to me about the motive of Baker, Zondervan, or Logos.

Zondervan is owned by

HarperRowCollins Publishing

, a division of

NewsCorp

, as one of Rupert Murdoch companies, I expect Zondervan to be driven by the same principles driving

NewsCorp

 as a company. (hint: it is not to spread the gospel of Christ to the four corners of the earth, it has more earthly goals like making a profit). The recent events with Amazon give us a good idea of NewsCorp philosophy when it comes to digital versus print books

Murdoch said "I think it really devalues books and it hurts all the retailers of the hard cover books."

 I would not be surprised if Baker and almost all the major players in the industry had the same outlook (being for-profit organizations). Especially when it comes to offering digital books at substantially lower prices than those of the print edition

I do not blame Logos for the situation even though I do not know what part they play in setting the price.

But let us not have illusions about what is driving prices up, it is another P word, namely profit (for the publishers)

Alain

Ted - thanks for the information and link. That does not speak specifically to pre pub prices, but that is probably where the reference came from. I suspect that Zondervan sets the floor for the pricing, but not the ceiling, and there are certainly other terms and conditons.

Whether Zondervan and Baker Books set the price and Logos' hands are tied, or if the pricing strategy at work here is to set the initial Logos price based on the expected price from publisher, or something else, it still seems like the purpose of Pre-Publications has been stretched.

From the Pre-Publications page, "The Pre-Pub program is a win-win for Logos and our users. Users get a
deep discount in exchange for placing a pre-order for a specific product
and Logos gets the assurance that sales will cover costs before
incurring expenses. Together we get a larger library for better Bible
study."

Maybe there needs to be a new category for "soon to be available" resources that don't fit the original intent of Pre-Publications.

When you compare the per page cost of these Baker resources to the per page cost of “the complete works of Stephen Charnock” (which in my opinion is an outstanding resource), you have a very large difference.  Stephen Charnock’s pre-pub price is 2.5 cents per page, and is 70% less than its retail price.  The Baker pre-pub’s range from 6.5 cents per page, to over 11 cents per page and is selling at retail. 

I think that the Pre-pub section should not list items for sale that do not meet certain discounts off of retail.  Either that or the pre-pub page description should not read:

“The Pre-Pub program is a win-win for Logos and our users. Users get a deep discount in exchange for placing a pre-order for a specific product and Logos gets the assurance that sales will cover costs before incurring expenses”

P. Keith Larson said:

I guess it will now have to be changed to read as follows: "The Pre-Pub programs is a win-lose program. A win for Logos and it's publishing partners and a lose for our users. Users will be footing the bill for the cost of production and losing out on any future deep discounts. Logos and its publishing partners get the assurance that sales will cover the production cost before incurring expenses. Together we will create a business model that other industries could only dream of!"

I can't tell if you're joking or not, but I think we all need to wait a little bit and see if Logos has any response to these concerns and/or if the price changes. In other words, I shouldn't be unwise by jumping on a pre-pub immediately if it's too expensive for my budget, but I also shouldn't assume there's some kind of conspiracy.

I think there are several factors going on. Amazon is having disputes with publishers, so it wouldn't shock me if Logos is having similar discussions. Another part of the equation may be related to access via multiple devices, ie library.logos.com and/or the iPhone app, in addition to on our computers. I'm guessing that pricing will have to adjust accordingly. I'm still hoping for good package/bundle deals now and again, and I'll buy books as I can and which I highly value. Some things may end up only accessible via some kind of a subscription model.  I don't know, these are obviously guesses on my part, but I'm trying to assume the best of Logos while realizing we are in the middle of some big shifts in electronic publishing.

I think it would be a mistake to say price doesn't matter, I'll buy anyway, because we have to be wise stewards, or to assume some kind of conspiracy, because that's not the kind of company Logos has shown themselves to be. So I'll be waiting for a little while to see how some of these things settle out.

Whyndell Grizzard said:

God bless America where retain the freedom to do with our money as we will, well for a little while longer any way, only 3 years of the Dictator left and His hinch men and women.

Hi Whyndell,

It's hard for me to remember, too, that when God grants discernment into another's righteousness, it isn't my invitation to judge them but to pray for them. And our President much needs our prayers.

God bless!

Bob Pritchett said:

In some ways, it's up to you. If you value front-list titles enough to pay front-list prices, we'll sell them. If you'd rather pay back-list prices for back-list titles, we'll stop offering these fresh titles and sell just back-list. This is an experiment.

As for accusations of profiteering, greed, etc.... it just seems silly. The beauty of capitalism (and I do think it's beautiful -- if ruthless! -- just like the other laws of God's universe, including the ruthless beauty "gravity") is that excessive profits are wiped out by competition.Trust me, publishers aren't getting rich, they are struggling to survive. We're doing a little better at Logos -- we're better prepared for the e-content world -- but we're standing on quicksand. It's changing every day.

If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.

The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.

I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.

 

Bob,

Great reply and as someone who really never uses Logos for a book reader; much more interested in the Bible Study aspect and will not invest in "reading" books; I appreciate the Logos model of business.

You are at least offering your customers what many have asked for, be it Zondervan or new items like those in pricing dispute by forum followers, but it does come down to whether or not those customers want them or not. So even though I doubtfully will ever be interested in most books that are being debated, I like that they are offered. Who knows maybe some day there will be one I'd like for Logos, though I don't see myself sitting at the computer to read a book, but I like the option and the fact that it is offered.

Now it comes down to supply and demand... If no one really buys, maybe Baker will work with Logos to lower the price... If it does sell, then the price is  correct for the consumer market...

Be Blessed,

Frank

Bob,

thank you for your very informative reply. I personally want front listed titles, and am willing to pay front list prices, I hope the price can be reduced but don't we all want that. That being said I would hope we could expect timley delivey of items that go into production. It seems that after titles are good to go they languish in the "under development status". For instance N t Wright's 3 vol work is going on 8 months in development., Maybe that is a good time frame but without knowing roughly when to expect it I'm left feeling like something I really want is dragging in development.

I am very thankful for all we have avalable in Logos, and I try to understand that there are complexities behind the scenes, but I think it would be helpful to all of us when a title goes under development we were given a 1st quarter or 2nd quarter type of time frame when to expect to recieve the item.

Thanks!

P. Keith Larson said:

I will not purchase any Logos format book that is not equal to or less in prices than the already heavily discounted hard copy price

I am not a "comapny man" nor one who celebrates all things Logos, but I think these comparisons are a bit hasty.  Heavily discounted copies seldom have the same quality or feel of more expensive copies.  A small example is Lewis' "Screwtape Letters" which I can either buy as a "heavily discounted" paperback, or a more expensive leather-bound collector's copy.  I think of Logos' indexing, and all the various reposts, comparisons and searches as "leather-binding" and, as a bi-vocational Youth Pastor, with a full-time outside job, a full-time ministry, and a full-time M.Div, student, the quick and through responses that I can achieve using the program are worth the dent, okay big gaping hole in my book budget.

In Christ,

Dave

Bob Pritchett said:

 

If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.

unfortunately, this is more a problem for Logos than for the publishers. they figure out that they will continue to sell the books in print or in digital format. If customers believe the price for digital format is too high and retreat to print format, they still buy product X from the publisher . however Logos is not unaffected by such decisions from customers.

If Logos begins to offer books at the full-retail price, I will  have no choice but to rethink my desire to move to an all digital library as long as the books are available in digital format.

The math is pretty clear for me, Bock's Jesus according to Scripture: Restoring the Portrait from the Gospels  has just appeared in prepub priced at $36.99, it is sold at Amazon for $24.73. a difference of around 33%. if I multiply that by 100 or 1000, the price of convenience becomes too high and will amount to thousands of dollars.

I might decide to absorb the cost difference for key resources that I am bound to consult often and that make heavy use of cross referencing with resources I have in Logos, but when it comes to books I might read once and maybe not open again during the decade, the price difference becomes a huge issue.

I also doubt that it would be a simple matter of books having been out for a few years before the price drops.  Jesus according to Scripture has been out since 2002 with a paperback edition having been issued for at least three years, however, the prepub price is still the full-retail price. Here it is clearly not a matter of trying to protect books that have just been published.

From a marketing perspective it is highly unimaginative for publishers to price the resources at the full-retail price without even given the illusion that one is getting a deal (there is something psychological about not buying books at the full-retail price).

What is likely to happen is that for the many books that do not benefit much from tagging and added functionality (customers who just want them in digital format and do not intent to do much more than reading them in that format), the much cheaper print or -e-reader version will be preferred. If I get an Ipad or similar device with a Logos App, i see myself using both Logos (for reference works and commentaries) and another e-reader (to read books that I want to read cover to cover). of course this would take business away from Logos but it would be a better deal for me as far as some resources are concerned because I would get the best of both worlds, cheaper resources the day they are published and in digital format.

I like Logos but I also have limited resources (I actually got into Logos and digital resources because it was a money saver); this new development cannot be good.

Logos might have to find another business model when it comes the prepub. Maybe find a way to keep the substantial discounts when one spends a large amount  with the same publisher ( have custom collection as opposed to what Baker attempted to do).

Maybe Logos should consider publishing some books in two format, one with full functionality (and added cost) and one for SIMULA reading without much added work done but with a cheaper price tag

 Alain

David A. Peterson said:

P. Keith Larson said:

I will not purchase any Logos format book that is not equal to or less in prices than the already heavily discounted hard copy price

I am not a "comapny man" nor one who celebrates all things Logos, but I think these comparisons are a bit hasty.  Heavily discounted copies seldom have the same quality or feel of more expensive copies.  A small example is Lewis' "Screwtape Letters" which I can either buy as a "heavily discounted" paperback, or a more expensive leather-bound collector's copy.  I think of Logos' indexing, and all the various reposts, comparisons and searches as "leather-binding" and, as a bi-vocational Youth Pastor, with a full-time outside job, a full-time ministry, and a full-time M.Div, student, the quick and through responses that I can achieve using the program are worth the dent, okay big gaping hole in my book budget.

In Christ,

Dave

I have a very large Logos library, 4000+, I can afford to wait it out. If a resource is truly stellar, I am sure it will end up in a L5 or L6 base package. In the mean time I have plenty of other great books to read and use in my Logos library.

Thank you Bob for your very informative post.

I was involved in Christian publishing for over 20 years--first as a bookstore manager and then as a publisher's rep calling on bookstores. I can affirm that Bob has accurately described some of the factors involved in publishing that most users never consider. If anyone is interested in learning more about the changing world of publishing, read some of Michael Hyatt's (Nelson) blog posts. http://michaelhyatt.com/

Bob also has the unique advantage of being a key player in the digital publishing business.

I vote for Bob providing Logos users the opportunity to buy more recent titles. I understand that by the nature of the business, those may carry higher prices than we have been used to.

I am sold on the Logos electronic library paradigm. I prefer the availability of my study tools in my Logos library instead of a print edition. It is worth more to me! If it is not worth more to others, they are not compelled to purchase the Logos format.

Logos users asked for NICOT/NICNT. Bob delivered.

Logos users asked for Zondervan titles. Bob delivered.

Logos users asked for more Baker reference works. Bob delivered.

**SENTENCE DELETED BY USER**

I expected people using Bible study tools would also show a little more respect for someone who has worked very hard to deliver over 10,000 Christian titles for Bible study. This thread comes after 3 months of constant berating by users over problems with Logos 4.

To the best of my knowledge, Bob and Logos have always exhibited Christian character.

**SENTENCE DELETED BY USER**

Edwin Bowden said:

I am sold on the Logos electronic library paradigm. I prefer the availability of my study tools in my Logos library instead of a print edition. It is worth more to me! If it is not worth more to others, they are not compelled to purchase the Logos format.

Logos users asked for NICOT/NICNT. Bob delivered.

Logos users asked for Zondervan titles. Bob delivered.

Logos users asked for more Baker reference works. Bob delivered.

Gregg stated,  "it's unreasonable to expect users to pay the same amount for an e-book as a hardcopy."

I agree; however, the Logos edition of the NIV commentaries is $600 more than the street price of the hardcopy.  That hasn't keep it from selling, apparently.  This seems to be a trend.  I am saving for the NIV commentaries, but I am not sure if I will buy them in hardcopy for $1,000 or the Logos version for $1,600.  It becomes a question of stewardship - that and poverty.

P. Keith Larson said:

I was not suggesting a conspiracy or anything remotely unethical. However, I was not joking. This is a win-lose scenario if I ever saw one. The only conceivable "win" those who are placing these order will get is that they are helping a book go into production that they want in Logos format.

Thanks for clarifying, and I see your concern.

Michael Childs said:

I do not think any of us want to participate in any organized boycott of any Logos resources.  What I can afford, I will buy.  What I can't I will not buy.  But I will not be ungrateful to Logos or Bob for the wonderful tool they have given us.  I hope they sale a ton of Baker Books.  Maybe this will get upgrades to several commentaries already in Logos format out quicker.

I agree completely.  Very well worded.  We have to be wise about how we spend God's resources. I've been thinking about this recently, especially with a little boy on the way in a few months.  [:)]   I want Logos to do well, and I'll support where I can.  I use Logos4 every day, saves me a lot of time in seminary classes, and I'm really excited about all the great books that were part of the upgrade.  But for the moment I need to focus on using what I've been blessed to obtain.