Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)
Comments
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Dan DeVilder said:ReneAtchley said:
IMO this is a product being offered at a price by a business whom seeks to make a profit with or without a theological veneer of Jesus's love. If one wants to purchase these prepub offerings that is fine, but to make excuses for what maybe framed as a form of price gouging is a different matter.
Rene, if what you are judging to be probably true, IS in fact true, that is a problem! But what information is available to you that suggests that your charges are true? (Price gouging, veneer, etc). All I have to go in is that pre-pub price is the same as post-pub. And I don't like that. But I sure don't have more to go on, than that. I can compare Amazon all I want, and I do, and that informs decisions I make, but it says little to me about the motive of Baker, Zondervan, or Logos.
I am wondering what charges that you are referring too. Unless the issue at hand is a veneer of Jesus love that can/is/could be used as a marketing tool I would think is obvious but perhaps not. Maybe the issue is price gouging which is open to my mind to how ones views pricing in the Christian publishing industry that includes places like Cokesbury and Family Book Stores. I am just cautioning that when business and faith matter combine it is easy to get lost, I think, that a certain price or product point is somehow a Christian one regardless of which company is offering that product. As noted by the op there appears to be a change in pricing policy or practice by Logos and/or its publishers and this thread can be seen as evidence for something.
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Ted Hans said:David Lowther said:
I saw in the blog comments where Dan said, "We are working with Zondervan right now to talk through the issues of
the discount for Pradis users." I may have missed where he said that Zondervan was driving Logos' pre pub prices for Zondervan products. Do you know where that was mentioned?"What does this mean to you?
Don’t worry, the
finished product is exactly what you would expect. There’s nothing
different about the way the books are produced. They are still finished
by our people right here in our building the same way all our other
titles are produced. The difference is, they are Zondervan’s products,
so they determine the configurations, collections and prices" http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/09/zondervan_announces_partnership_with_logos_bible_software.htmlThe info you wanted.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ted Hans said:Dan DeVilder said:Ted Hans said:Dan DeVilder said:
All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors.
Sorry, you may have misunderstood i was not advising others not to buy just myself. Please feel free to go ahead with any purchase, it is your money not mine
.Ted, FYI, while I did read your post (as I read the whole page), I wasn't responding specifically to you. If anything, my response was to the blog and my gut feel. Just didn't want you to think I had taken you out of context--i wasn't addressing your comment specifically at all. At the same time, I was not unaware of your comments, either--and you always write fair evaluations!
Sorry, not again i got this one wrong! My apologies, I pressed the "replied" next to your name on your previous post(comments) and it took me to my post so i thought you were responding to me. No offense meant - just hope i was not out of line with my comments to you in a public forum
. Yours in Christ,
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Dan DeVilder said:
Rene, if what you are judging to be probably true, IS in fact true, that is a problem! But what information is available to you that suggests that your charges are true? (Price gouging, veneer, etc). All I have to go in is that pre-pub price is the same as post-pub. And I don't like that. But I sure don't have more to go on, than that. I can compare Amazon all I want, and I do, and that informs decisions I make, but it says little to me about the motive of Baker, Zondervan, or Logos.
Zondervan is owned by
HarperRowCollins Publishing
, a division of
NewsCorp
, as one of Rupert Murdoch companies, I expect Zondervan to be driven by the same principles driving
NewsCorp
as a company. (hint: it is not to spread the gospel of Christ to the four corners of the earth, it has more earthly goals like making a profit). The recent events with Amazon give us a good idea of NewsCorp philosophy when it comes to digital versus print booksMurdoch said "I think it really devalues books and it hurts all the retailers of the hard cover books."
I would not be surprised if Baker and almost all the major players in the industry had the same outlook (being for-profit organizations). Especially when it comes to offering digital books at substantially lower prices than those of the print edition
I do not blame Logos for the situation even though I do not know what part they play in setting the price.
But let us not have illusions about what is driving prices up, it is another P word, namely profit (for the publishers)
Alain
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I hope I'm wrong, but the days of upgrading and getting tons of new books for one to two dollars apiece may disapear like the buffalo did. It used to be out of copyright books that were the filler content in most bible programs, but with the new L4 upgrades we were treated to a large amount of in copyright works for very little cost per volume. Logos truly blessed us one and all this time around.
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BobbyTerhune said:
After all how many 199.00 Baker collections can one afford, before it becomes cheaper in the end to just buy what you really need one at a time.
ain't that the truth! I am staring down the barrel at baker and NIBC and some other stuff coming due in Feb. It is a lean year and I just committed to Portfolio . .
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Alain Maashe said:
Zondervan is owned by
HarperRowCollins Publishing
, a division of
NewsCorp
, as one of Rupert Murdoch companies,Alain Maashe said:Murdoch said "I think it really devalues books and it hurts all the retailers of the hard cover books."
Zondervan is owned by Rupert Murduch! O dear, did not know that. Nothing further needs to be said then.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Ted Hans said:Ted Hans said:Dan DeVilder said:Ted Hans said:Dan DeVilder said:
All i can say is, i will buy IF I need the book, and even then I will weigh many factors.
Sorry, you may have misunderstood i was not advising others not to buy just myself. Please feel free to go ahead with any purchase, it is your money not mine
.Ted, FYI, while I did read your post (as I read the whole page), I wasn't responding specifically to you. If anything, my response was to the blog and my gut feel. Just didn't want you to think I had taken you out of context--i wasn't addressing your comment specifically at all. At the same time, I was not unaware of your comments, either--and you always write fair evaluations!
Sorry, not again i got this one wrong! My apologies, I pressed the "replied" next to your name on your previous post(comments) and it took me to my post so i thought you were responding to me. No offense meant - just hope i was not out of line with my comments to you in a public forum
. Yours in Christ,
Ted.
does that happen if I click "reply" even if I don't quote, instead of Quick reply? Never knew that. Interesting. If I did hit reply to you, it was not intentionally done. Just trying to comment.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Alain Maashe said:
Dan DeVilder said:
Rene, if what you are judging to be probably true, IS in fact true, that is a problem! But what information is available to you that suggests that your charges are true? (Price gouging, veneer, etc). All I have to go in is that pre-pub price is the same as post-pub. And I don't like that. But I sure don't have more to go on, than that. I can compare Amazon all I want, and I do, and that informs decisions I make, but it says little to me about the motive of Baker, Zondervan, or Logos.
Zondervan is owned by
HarperRowCollins Publishing
, a division of
NewsCorp
, as one of Rupert Murdoch companies, I expect Zondervan to be driven by the same principles driving
NewsCorp
as a company. (hint: it is not to spread the gospel of Christ to the four corners of the earth, it has more earthly goals like making a profit). The recent events with Amazon give us a good idea of NewsCorp philosophy when it comes to digital versus print booksMurdoch said "I think it really devalues books and it hurts all the retailers of the hard cover books.""
I would not be surprised if Baker and almost all the major players in the industry had the same outlook (being for-profit organizations). Especially when it comes to offering digital books at substantially lower prices than those of the print edition
I do not blame Logos for the situation even though I do not know what part they play in setting the price.
But let us not have illusions about what is driving prices up, it is another P word, namely profit (for the publishers)
Alain
I am under no illusions about profit. Or mixed motives. Even working as a volunteer in the Christian Music festival venues lets me see that.
Rene may have good insight--I just didn't have any proof for that, or those charges (gouging/veneer). And Rene, nothing against you at all.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Ted - thanks for the information and link. That does not speak specifically to pre pub prices, but that is probably where the reference came from. I suspect that Zondervan sets the floor for the pricing, but not the ceiling, and there are certainly other terms and conditons.
Whether Zondervan and Baker Books set the price and Logos' hands are tied, or if the pricing strategy at work here is to set the initial Logos price based on the expected price from publisher, or something else, it still seems like the purpose of Pre-Publications has been stretched.
From the Pre-Publications page, "The Pre-Pub program is a win-win for Logos and our users. Users get a
deep discount in exchange for placing a pre-order for a specific product
and Logos gets the assurance that sales will cover costs before
incurring expenses. Together we get a larger library for better Bible
study."Maybe there needs to be a new category for "soon to be available" resources that don't fit the original intent of Pre-Publications.
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BobbyTerhune said:
I hope I'm wrong, but the days of upgrading and getting tons of new books for one to two dollars apiece may disapear like the buffalo did. It used to be out of copyright books that were the filler content in most bible programs, but with the new L4 upgrades we were treated to a large amount of in copyright works for very little cost per volume. Logos truly blessed us one and all this time around.
Logos' library was THE key reason i invested in them to begin with (Series X--what a COOL name that was. Bring it back!)
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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When you compare the per page cost of these Baker resources to the per page cost of “the complete works of Stephen Charnock” (which in my opinion is an outstanding resource), you have a very large difference. Stephen Charnock’s pre-pub price is 2.5 cents per page, and is 70% less than its retail price. The Baker pre-pub’s range from 6.5 cents per page, to over 11 cents per page and is selling at retail.
I think that the Pre-pub section should not list items for sale that do not meet certain discounts off of retail. Either that or the pre-pub page description should not read:
“The Pre-Pub program is a win-win for Logos and our users. Users get a deep discount in exchange for placing a pre-order for a specific product and Logos gets the assurance that sales will cover costs before incurring expenses”
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David Lowther said:
From the Pre-Publications page, "The Pre-Pub program is a win-win for Logos and our users. Users get a deep discount in exchange for placing a pre-order for a specific product and Logos gets the assurance that sales will cover costs before incurring expenses. Together we get a larger library for better Bible study."
I guess it will now have to be changed to read as follows: "The Pre-Pub programs is a win-lose program. A win for Logos and it's publishing partners and a lose for our users. Users will be footing the bill for the cost of production and losing out on any future deep discounts. Logos and its publishing partners get the assurance that sales will cover the production cost before incurring expenses. Together we will create a business model that other industries could only dream of!"
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P. Keith Larson said:
I guess it will now have to be changed to read as follows: "The Pre-Pub programs is a win-lose program. A win for Logos and it's publishing partners and a lose for our users. Users will be footing the bill for the cost of production and losing out on any future deep discounts. Logos and its publishing partners get the assurance that sales will cover the production cost before incurring expenses. Together we will create a business model that other industries could only dream of!"
I can't tell if you're joking or not, but I think we all need to wait a little bit and see if Logos has any response to these concerns and/or if the price changes. In other words, I shouldn't be unwise by jumping on a pre-pub immediately if it's too expensive for my budget, but I also shouldn't assume there's some kind of conspiracy.
I think there are several factors going on. Amazon is having disputes with publishers, so it wouldn't shock me if Logos is having similar discussions. Another part of the equation may be related to access via multiple devices, ie library.logos.com and/or the iPhone app, in addition to on our computers. I'm guessing that pricing will have to adjust accordingly. I'm still hoping for good package/bundle deals now and again, and I'll buy books as I can and which I highly value. Some things may end up only accessible via some kind of a subscription model. I don't know, these are obviously guesses on my part, but I'm trying to assume the best of Logos while realizing we are in the middle of some big shifts in electronic publishing.
I think it would be a mistake to say price doesn't matter, I'll buy anyway, because we have to be wise stewards, or to assume some kind of conspiracy, because that's not the kind of company Logos has shown themselves to be. So I'll be waiting for a little while to see how some of these things settle out.
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I think we need to realize what Bob said in part in another post is going to affect the cost of modern up to date books. He said;
"And, of course, your list is of "hot titles" -- well known, strong sellers. Guess what? The publisher knows they're hot too, so they want to hold onto and control those rights as carefully as possible. As a general rule of thumb, the more you (and lots of other people) want the book, the more careful and restrictive publishers (and authors) are in licensing rights."
As christian book sellers see what is happening in the secular media about the pricing of digital books, it can't but have an effect on us. After all how much do you think Logos pays royalties on a Scholars Platinum base package when the price per book is $1.35 ea. and Portfolio is up to $2.60 ea?
That model is probably based on volume from being included in a base package, but I wonder at the end of the day if the publishers are happy with that kind of pricing and return on their product. Just like apple upset Amazon's pricing model, I think Apple will in the end affect us all by changing publishers expectations of what they can get for their copyrighted product.
I think Logos will do the best that it can for us and their business, but I do see some shifts coming in the digital book business. Its the publishers who control the rights and prices as well as availability. Just look at book titles that have vanished from Logos from WJK press, The New Jerusalem Bible and others.
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Everyone is trying to figure out pricing in the new world of digital content.
Electronic resources are not inherently cheaper to produce than paper; the paper / plastic that a book or song or movie are delivered on is not the big part of the production cost. And in many cases (especially books), the e-books sell many fewer copies. (Growing, but still single-digit percentages.) So fewer copies have to cover very similar production costs.
Some of our publishing partners have chosen to only license older, backlist titles that have already paid for themselves in print. Many users have requested Logos-compatible editions of the latest, freshest resources. On these resources publishers generally get 50% of the retail cost of paper sales, and as much or more on other e-book platforms. (Amazon's sale of e-books at $9.99 is generally at a loss -- they pay the publisher half of the retail, and eat the difference. It's believed they're doing this to A) sell more Kindles,
establish themselves as the de facto channel for all e-book sales, a good place to be for the future, and C) force publishers and authors towards a pricing model of Amazon's choosing.)When you see a paper book's retail price, you can be pretty sure the publisher is getting around 50% of that. If you see it sold for less than retail, it's because the indistinguishable retailers (every bookstore is pretty much the same, and every "web site and a warehouse" is, too) are competing
So you can see why publishers have been reluctant to do low-royalty licenses of their latest and greatest titles for e-book editions. They want (or rather, need, to stay in business) that "half-of-retail" on the first round of sales. And if the first round of sales are going digital, they still need to make as much on the digital copies.
Back when digital was always 4-5 years after the initial sale, and the book was on the backlist or out of print, any revenue was gravy -- the book had made its costs in print. That's not true when e-books start selling the same day as paper, and start taking a bigger share of the purchases.
So if Logos is a retailer, why don't we chop 25% off the list price, like Amazon or some web retailer? Because we don't (yet) have similar cost structures. Our sale of the book for Logos format costs more to execute and support than Amazon's. Amazon gets a paper copy, puts it in a database, and ships copies to you. Then they're done. We do more technical work, have to continue to update the software engine, provide tech support, etc. (Amazon may have to support you on the Kindle, but that's easier than supporting Logos desktop software, and you had to pay the for the Kindle. Our software was "free" -- with the cost of writing it supported from our cut of the book's sale.)
Will Baker books get cheaper? I don't know. Possibly. We may get some efficiencies. Publishers may decide to lower their prices after the book's been out a few years. (They do this now -- the paperback edition is just an excuse to sell it for less a few years after the hardback.)
In some ways, it's up to you. If you value front-list titles enough to pay front-list prices, we'll sell them. If you'd rather pay back-list prices for back-list titles, we'll stop offering these fresh titles and sell just back-list. This is an experiment.
As for accusations of profiteering, greed, etc.... it just seems silly. The beauty of capitalism (and I do think it's beautiful -- if ruthless! -- just like the other laws of God's universe, including the ruthless beauty "gravity") is that excessive profits are wiped out by competition.Trust me, publishers aren't getting rich, they are struggling to survive. We're doing a little better at Logos -- we're better prepared for the e-content world -- but we're standing on quicksand. It's changing every day.
If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.
The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.
I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.
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Thank you, Bob. That's a great explanation, and I'm bookmarking your reply so I can refer people to it in the future whenever they moan about the prices! [:)]
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
God bless America where retain the freedom to do with our money as we will, well for a little while longer any way, only 3 years of the Dictator left and His hinch men and women.
Hi Whyndell,
It's hard for me to remember, too, that when God grants discernment into another's righteousness, it isn't my invitation to judge them but to pray for them. And our President much needs our prayers.
God bless!
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
As an end user of several bible products I don't know the price structure or business model used by Logos but it does seem to be a successful one....even to the extent of dominating the market place over historical products like Quickverse or PC-Study Bible. It is also a good thing to describe the factors involved in pricing of prepub options which should help consumers to feel more comfortable with purchasing such products. However, the notion that profiteering isn't or cant take place because there is too much competition makes no sense to me given the market position of Logos in the Bible software universe. What competition? Pointing out possible reasons for a change in price structures or policy is sheer speculation on all of our parts (including me) and should be taken in that light I think. I am happy to own Logos products, in version 3 mode, and have bought more as my project needs are met by the large library. My hope is that I don't have to sell my license on the open market because I can't afford to keep updating it over the next several years. Thank you for your feed back Bob.
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Bob Pritchett said:
In some ways, it's up to you. If you value front-list titles enough to pay front-list prices, we'll sell them. If you'd rather pay back-list prices for back-list titles, we'll stop offering these fresh titles and sell just back-list. This is an experiment.
As for accusations of profiteering, greed, etc.... it just seems silly. The beauty of capitalism (and I do think it's beautiful -- if ruthless! -- just like the other laws of God's universe, including the ruthless beauty "gravity") is that excessive profits are wiped out by competition.Trust me, publishers aren't getting rich, they are struggling to survive. We're doing a little better at Logos -- we're better prepared for the e-content world -- but we're standing on quicksand. It's changing every day.
If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.
The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.
I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.
Bob,
Great reply and as someone who really never uses Logos for a book reader; much more interested in the Bible Study aspect and will not invest in "reading" books; I appreciate the Logos model of business.
You are at least offering your customers what many have asked for, be it Zondervan or new items like those in pricing dispute by forum followers, but it does come down to whether or not those customers want them or not. So even though I doubtfully will ever be interested in most books that are being debated, I like that they are offered. Who knows maybe some day there will be one I'd like for Logos, though I don't see myself sitting at the computer to read a book, but I like the option and the fact that it is offered.
Now it comes down to supply and demand... If no one really buys, maybe Baker will work with Logos to lower the price... If it does sell, then the price is correct for the consumer market...
Be Blessed,
Frank
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Well, if I understand things right it, is not just publishers that are going through rough times right now, in fact who isn't, but is higher prices the answer?
But, the point that I would like to address is the stated purpose of the Pre-pub page. Bob, you know how things are changing with the publishers, and in light of these changes, many of these books no longer fulfill the goal of the Pre-pub page, is it possible that your customers would be better served with some kind of change to the Pre-pub page, this would head off a lot of hard feelings.
Have things changed to the point where you need two different types of pre-pubs, one for those that need those special deals in order to afford books and another page that contain all pre-pubs regardless of discount.
As you can see this topic hit a sore spot and it took off fast.
In Christ,
Jim
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Bob,
thank you for your very informative reply. I personally want front listed titles, and am willing to pay front list prices, I hope the price can be reduced but don't we all want that. That being said I would hope we could expect timley delivey of items that go into production. It seems that after titles are good to go they languish in the "under development status". For instance N t Wright's 3 vol work is going on 8 months in development., Maybe that is a good time frame but without knowing roughly when to expect it I'm left feeling like something I really want is dragging in development.
I am very thankful for all we have avalable in Logos, and I try to understand that there are complexities behind the scenes, but I think it would be helpful to all of us when a title goes under development we were given a 1st quarter or 2nd quarter type of time frame when to expect to recieve the item.
Thanks!
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I agree that these books don't belong on the pre-pub page given its stated purpose. Obviously Logos doesn't have another page but perhaps with hundreds of Baker titles coming (all singlely?) it might be a good idea. On the whole I don't think this process is going to work but perhaps you have received enough Zondervan orders to think that it will. Personally I won't be buying any Baker titles at full price. Here's an example of why not. I own Bock's Jesus Accordin to Scripture (080103308X), bought last year for a SS class I was teaching. It's a great book and very useful in preparing for my class. I haven't seen any other commentaries like it. However I won't be buying it for Logos because 1) I already own it and 2) It's not worth $36 to have it electronically. I love Logos and wish I had the money to afford all these volumes but that's simply not the case and I don't think it is something that Jesus would do either. That said, if you are interested in the gospels and don't own Bock - buy a copy or two - one for the church library.
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P. Keith Larson said:
I will not purchase any Logos format book that is not equal to or less in prices than the already heavily discounted hard copy price
I am not a "comapny man" nor one who celebrates all things Logos, but I think these comparisons are a bit hasty. Heavily discounted copies seldom have the same quality or feel of more expensive copies. A small example is Lewis' "Screwtape Letters" which I can either buy as a "heavily discounted" paperback, or a more expensive leather-bound collector's copy. I think of Logos' indexing, and all the various reposts, comparisons and searches as "leather-binding" and, as a bi-vocational Youth Pastor, with a full-time outside job, a full-time ministry, and a full-time M.Div, student, the quick and through responses that I can achieve using the program are worth the dent, okay big gaping hole in my book budget.
In Christ,
Dave
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Tom,
I heartily second your feeling on the bock commentary, except I did place a prepub order. I've wanted this one for a long time! I can give my hardback copy to someone else.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Everyone is trying to figure out pricing in the new world of digital content.
Certainly 6 or 8 of us on the forums are! [;)]
Bob Pritchett said:Electronic resources are not inherently cheaper to produce than paper
This is an important point to make. I think most don't understand or think about what goes into making them, and delivering them (from code to tagging to servers, etc). Even though I have registered some disappointment at the "non pre-pub, pre-pub" price (which was a result of the ridiculously good deals I was used to with Logos), and I would hope that even with all you have stated, those individual titles and collections, whenever they are on pre-pub, could even be a couple dollars off, even then, I really, really, really, like Logos and have invested heavily in it. And if I have the choice between a 20 dollar book at Logos, or 13 dollar--hardcopy--via Amazon, I will go, more often than not, with Logos.
Some of my willingness to buy will depend on the value of the book for me. Some of it depends on what technology is in my possession. I don't yet have an iPhone or iPad. I don't have a kindle, so the reading experience is not what I want for some type of books. I like to be more mobile and intimate, than I can right now, even with my laptop, when I am reading certain books. Some of it is I just need to feel like I am not tied to my computer, even if it means using a more portable, lighter computer (iPad, eg).
I like what Logos is trying to do. I just think Baker would experience more sales from me if they had better pre-pub prices. They might not make as much per book, as they can at full price, but they might make as much, en toto, and will have sold more copies and good will in the process.
ooops. gotta run. Small group starts in 15 minutes! [Y] more later. thanks for posting more insight for us.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Thanks Bob for your informative response and for taking the time to interact with users. Well, i am one of those guilty parties who have been requesting a lot of Baker stuff to be available. I guess i did not factor in the price tag - i thought it would be like other Pre-Pub offerings.
I appreciate your take on things, at the same time, try and see it from your customers point of view - this is a new development. I have many Pre-Pub orders to take care of, so i still remain a Logos fan. I wish i was that rich to close my eyes at the price tag but since i am not that rich i guess i will have to priorities what i buy.
Thanks again, really, for taking an interest in what your customers think and responding to them. I will keep my eyes on the Pre-Pub page for other offerings other than Baker. I hope you guys don't offer books from Baker that i really want [:D].
Best wishes.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Bob Pritchett said:
If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.
unfortunately, this is more a problem for Logos than for the publishers. they figure out that they will continue to sell the books in print or in digital format. If customers believe the price for digital format is too high and retreat to print format, they still buy product X from the publisher . however Logos is not unaffected by such decisions from customers.
If Logos begins to offer books at the full-retail price, I will have no choice but to rethink my desire to move to an all digital library as long as the books are available in digital format.
The math is pretty clear for me, Bock's Jesus according to Scripture: Restoring the Portrait from the Gospels has just appeared in prepub priced at $36.99, it is sold at Amazon for $24.73. a difference of around 33%. if I multiply that by 100 or 1000, the price of convenience becomes too high and will amount to thousands of dollars.
I might decide to absorb the cost difference for key resources that I am bound to consult often and that make heavy use of cross referencing with resources I have in Logos, but when it comes to books I might read once and maybe not open again during the decade, the price difference becomes a huge issue.
I also doubt that it would be a simple matter of books having been out for a few years before the price drops. Jesus according to Scripture has been out since 2002 with a paperback edition having been issued for at least three years, however, the prepub price is still the full-retail price. Here it is clearly not a matter of trying to protect books that have just been published.
From a marketing perspective it is highly unimaginative for publishers to price the resources at the full-retail price without even given the illusion that one is getting a deal (there is something psychological about not buying books at the full-retail price).
What is likely to happen is that for the many books that do not benefit much from tagging and added functionality (customers who just want them in digital format and do not intent to do much more than reading them in that format), the much cheaper print or -e-reader version will be preferred. If I get an Ipad or similar device with a Logos App, i see myself using both Logos (for reference works and commentaries) and another e-reader (to read books that I want to read cover to cover). of course this would take business away from Logos but it would be a better deal for me as far as some resources are concerned because I would get the best of both worlds, cheaper resources the day they are published and in digital format.
I like Logos but I also have limited resources (I actually got into Logos and digital resources because it was a money saver); this new development cannot be good.
Logos might have to find another business model when it comes the prepub. Maybe find a way to keep the substantial discounts when one spends a large amount with the same publisher ( have custom collection as opposed to what Baker attempted to do).
Maybe Logos should consider publishing some books in two format, one with full functionality (and added cost) and one for SIMULA reading without much added work done but with a cheaper price tag
Alain
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Kevin Becker said:
Here's my take. I am willing to pay MSRP for an e-book if it has a demonstrated benefit to being in Logos. Mostly these include dictionaries, commentaries, and original language tools ect. However, when it comes to the "trade paperback" category I am much less willing to make these purchases. Many of these books do not contain enough information to consult many times.
I totally agree. If it is not a reference material, I see no benefit to having it in logos.
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Bob Pritchett said:
I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.
For reference material,it is a go for me. I dont mind paying retail for hot off the press reference material. I dont see the benefit for purchasing regular books in logos format at full retail. I am only speaking for myself. I use Logos for research, so my focus is reference material. I dont use Logos for casual reading.
Thanks for your input Bob.
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