Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)

Bob Pritchett said:

In some ways, it's up to you. If you value front-list titles enough to pay front-list prices, we'll sell them. If you'd rather pay back-list prices for back-list titles, we'll stop offering these fresh titles and sell just back-list. This is an experiment.

 

If you think the full-retail price for a Baker title is too much, you can buy it in paper at lots of prices, on the Kindle, soon on the iPad, etc. If Baker and Logos are going to charge full-retail for a Logos-compatible edition, it needs to be worth it, in both tagging, functionality, support, and timeliness. If not, you will all take your business elsewhere.

 

The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.

 

I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.

 

Bob

I want to join with those who acknowledge and thank you for all that you do.  Throughout my dealings with Logos I have been pleased by the efforts to operate your business in an open and Christian manner.  Like any business, you have to cover your costs and have a return on what is invested.  I have been blessed to have the tools available in Logos over the years. 

I have been pleased to take advantage of discounts when they have been available, whether the resources are from the Community Pricing, Pre-Pub or collection routes.  I will continue to do that as much as I am (financially) able.  At times I have bought products that are not of immediate interest or use for me but, because of the discount, I believe I will benefit in the long run.  I am trying to exercise good stewardship.

I like the IDEA of having front-list resources available.  As a good steward of my (limited) financial resources, without a discount, I need to more carefully evaluate the usefulness of the Logos resource.  If I can wait until I expect to use a resource before I commit to buying it at the same price, then I will be less likely to order the Pre-Pub.  If it is a resource that I believe will be useful for me as soon as I can get it into my Logos library, then I will place a Pre-Pub order.  That is a different evaluation process than I have used for Pre-Pubs in the past.

I think some of the complaints in this thread relate to expectations and marketing.  As others have said, an expectation for a Pre-pub discount has been created.  When that does not appear, then people react.  A nominal discount would help me psychologically.  [:)]  Whether or not there is a nominal discount, I think it would be appropriate to separate the "traditional"  pre-pubs from these newer front-list resources.

 I do hope that this experiment is successful, but I will not be ordering this type of pre-pub as "indiscriminately" as I have ordered pre-pubs in the past.

Michael Childs said:

I hope they sale a ton of Baker Books.

Are you sure about this? The way capitalism works is the law of supply and demand. If there is a high demand for books in Logos format at 100% of MSRP. If Logos learns their customers will support such high prices, in time the average price of all Logos books will go up, because prices always raise to the level the market will allow. There is nothing moral or immoral about it. This is just how the system works.

As a consumers our only recourse is not to purchase products we believe are over priced, if enough people agree with us the price will go down, if not enough, the price will go up. So I hope that Logos does not sale any Baker Books at 100% MSRP. This is not an attack against Logos. It is just my way of participating in the free market system.

Edwin,

I agree that Bob and the Logos crew have done a great job in many areas, but they do make mistakes, and I have seen a few, but only a few if any posts that were out of line.

Before you start thinking I an crazy, I want to remind you that Bob has asked for his customers to tell him not only when he does what they like, but also when he does something they don't like.

I have spent years of my life coaching and training pro athletes, one of them has won 5 national pro championships.  In each case the athletes that do well are the ones that learn to work on their weaknesses not just on their strengths.  We often kid one another that the winner is the one that has lost the most and never gave up learning from losing.

You may not agree with me but I think these forums are some of the best feed back that Logos will ever get and if they want to build the best company and product, they will learn not only from the positive feed back but from the negative.

I am afraid that too many of us as believers see failure, or at least someone pointing out something they see as a flaw, as being bad.

That is seldom case in my experience, but rather our attitude towards such advice says more about us, than the fact that we are not perfect.

In my opinion, Bob most likely puts a high value on these disagreements, even if we are wrong, and he knows it, at least he knows how some of his customers see things.

In Christ,

Jim

Check the Pre-pubs page again (perhaps a "refresh" may be needed), the wording has already been changed to reflect the addition of the Baker products using the new model for their new-release titles......

David J. Wilson said:

Check the Pre-pubs page again (perhaps a "refresh" may be needed), the wording has already been changed to reflect the addition of the Baker products using the new model for their new-release titles......

Ah, yes... thank you for pointing that out for me.  I see the wording has changed a bit.  Thank you

MJ. Smith said:

P. Keith Larson said:

So I hope that Logos does not sale any Baker Books at 100% MSRP.

What I see is a much larger percentage of books in pre-pub that are of interest to me - I hope that the Logos/Baker venture is a success so that a broader range of materials are supported.

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I don’t think anyone wants to see Baker or Logos fail (this
would mean the end of digital books in Logos format at any price). I don’t think
anyone wants Baker not to offer a broader range of materials (most of us would
like the entire collection of most publishers to be in Logos format).

What many of us do not want is Baker and Zondervan new
pricing structure to succeed. If it does other publishers will follow imitating what happened with Amazon (and why
shouldn’t they if they think that customers are ready to pay whatever they
charge), the pre-pub system will become irrelevant and all books that promise
to or already generate a certain level of interest will be sold at MSRP until
the demand subsides significantly.

I still do not think that the industry can sustain such high
prices especially when there is a competition from the “used books” market.

I spent around $2000 last year on prepubs and other
discounts, with the new pricing system, I will not spend $2000 on fewer
resources (which would be ideal for the publishers) I intend to spend much less
and only on what I absolutely need: gone the days of buying a resource just
because I think I might need it and I might miss a good price. If I end up
spending only $500 this year, the publishers will have a higher margin per
product but they will see a drop in revenue from me. Just multiply that by thousands
and thousands of customers and it clearly becomes a lose-lose situation for
everybody (except maybe my wallet).

This new development is a wake  up call and a reminder that I should be more discriminating in what I buy (which is not good for Logos from a business perspective)

With higher prices, Logos can only target a niche market and
might not be able to expand. Customer will only convert to digital if they feel
that they are getting a better value than what print offerings give them. With
substantially higher prices, it becomes difficult to make that argument. a feel less enthusiastic recommending an electronic book at full MSRP to a student making minimum wage when they can get it for a substantially lower price new or used in print

I would like to see Baker offer a broader range of materials
but I do not want it to be accessible to (or afforded by) only a select few. I
would like to Logos customer base expand and see the company take advantage of
the economy of scale and offer products that have exceptional value because of
the added functionality and its unbeatable price. If the current model
succeeds, it is unlikely that the digital market will grow in any significant
way considering the nature of the product (it is not a vanity product that can
ride the name brand or the "cool" factor) and the customers (many of them students or in a ministry
with significant budget constraints and an obligation to take good stewardship
over mere convenience).

Alain

With the launch of L4, Logos has done more than just change the engine to be much better.  They have changed their philosophy and strategy.  I for one think it will bring a windfall in the short run but will not survive the long haul.  Many think their new style and philosophy is the best thing since slice bread.  And that is great.  Others are cutting back severely on their purchases, believing  that the new philosophy is a big mistake.  If you pay retail price during pre pub stage, you will can still order the resource later once it is out of pre pub stage at the same price.  Why, therefore, would you want to pre order unless you want to make sure the resource makes it to publication?  There is no incentive to pre ordering

I have to agree with David and Mark in their opposition to the new sales strategy.

It is  being implemented under a program that has historically been marketed as a means of providing  discounts on products for customers wiling to share in the financial risk of Logos publishing the resources

There are some who will bash me for my statement, but here goes:

In my opinion calling the Zondervan and Baker products Pre-Pubs could be looked upon as false advertising. I feel that Logos is allowing it's loyal customers to be taken advantage of by marketing them in this fashion.

I have purchased many Logos products in Pre-pub. I will not be purchasing any under the Zondervan Baker model.

I already have Zondervan in Pradis 6. If Zondervan insists on the current pricing structure with no discount to current owners I will not be re-purchasing something I already own.

Looks like Baker is using the same model. Some books look pretty good in Pre-pub. Most do not. To those of you who enjoy being price gouged enjoy yourself.                                                                      If I need it I will buy it. If not I will not

To those of you who would reply to this condemning me for not agreeing with the current direction of Logos "don't".  You'll only be giving me your opinion. As you can see, I have my own.

If you want to be taken advantage of go ahead and enjoy it. I won't be joining you.

I have purchased and enjoyed many of the benefits that Logos software provides. I appreciate the things that Bob and the company try to do for us "the customers". But keep in mind we "customers" pay for this software. It is not a gift. I hope to remain a "customer", but I don't agree with paying more for electronic  resources than I would pay for them in paper. 

Dan DeVilder said:

David J. Wilson said:

Both Zondervan and Baker are obviously somewhat reluctant to go the Logos route.  If Logos customers show lack of interest too, this will confirm to both of them that they should not bother offereing titles in Logos format.  Win-win ? Hardly..... 

 

Here is a suggestion, and an open invitation: Zondervan and Baker, we, Logos Users all—who have spent into the thousands each year, in many cases—ask you to enter this discussion with us.  We are YOUR customers too, and we believe your insight and interaction with us will go a long way to figuring out how to make something work out, for you, and for us.  No need to keep Bob Pritchett as the sole spokesman and explainer.  We value your resources and we value our own, as well.

Join us in this discussion, please.

 

Now, someone gussy that up a bit and see if they will respond. 

Very well said Dan! Zondervan and Baker need to know that this new type of "PrePub" feels like an threat or ultimatum to many of us: "You Logos customers pay the highest possible price and commit before hand to purchase our products or we will take our books and go home." My knee jerk response is "fine then, you take your books home and I will keep my money." This is a PR disaster in the making.

Dan DeVilder said:

David Paul said:

Oh...those of you (not the Logos faculty) who seem to earn your living as unabashed Logos apologists, hammering any comment that so much as insinuates Logos hasn't been delivered unto us, the unwashed masses, in a state of sublime perfection, while you characterize any customer suggestion that "all things Logos are less than perfect" to be an infraction akin to a mortal sin...save it. Better yet...stuff it. I'm frankly sick and tired of your blather. As the guy who trains world class profession athletes said above...and anyone with higher than a grade school education knows...criticism is the path to improvement. Your Christian pose isn't Christianity. Stop the stormtrooper shtick and let people who have dropped $XXXXX.00 putting Bob's kids through college have their say...they are entitled to it. I don't need to hear you say Bob can run his own business--again--and again. I'm a customer giving a businessman a hint as to how to successfully pick my pocket. Gripes are part of the package. Please save the sanctimonious Pharisaical sham for someone who won't call it out for the holier-than-thou hypocritical farce it really is.

One more thing...L4 isn't perfect. Get over it.

Geesh David Paul, do you feel better now?  Your tirade totally obliterates any sense you bring to this discussion.  Gentleness of response would go a long, long way.  We are all guilty of not doing it, but you go wayyy overboard here.  We are called to be gentle, even with those who oppose us.

It is true that we are called to be gentle with our oppressors but even our LORD was angered and threw a tantrum over how worshippers were being ripped off. Now it is the student's of HIs Word to whom Baker, Z (and even Logos to an extent) have become the money changers.

As much as I would love to add some Z & Baker to my meagre electronic collection, the $$ asked makes it way out of reach.

You are free to assume that both Zondervan and Baker will one day become heavily involved in eBooks in one form or another.

Myself, I see a parallel between Zondervan and IBM: thirty years back a world leader in Computer Industry, eventually pioneering the entry into the personal computer market, but ultimately unable to fully make the transition and today "missing" from the home computer market.....

Seems earily similar: Leading paper book publisher, pioneering via Pradis (but as a reluctant extra, similar to IBM's PC compared to their mainframe base), and with the current posture via Logos, perhaps ready to be bypassed by others. 

Perhaps forgetful that the objective is to take the works of a variety of authors and publish them to an appropriate market in a form prefered by the market, Zondervan seem perhaps overly bound by a concept of their own ownership and control of copyright and that the media must be primarily paper.  They may find themselves bypassed.  A decade from now Logos may find themselves, if they too can adapt fast enough, dealing more directly with the next generation of authors, ultimately by-passing those publishers who clung too long to paper and marketing via bookstores.   Even with mail order books and Amazon and the like pushing many local bookstores out of the marketplace, books are still inherintly heavy, cost a lot to ship (especially out of the country), and take up a lot of space when collected.

Bah...I haven't even updated my interface to L4 because it seems like a waste of money to me....in 12 to 18 months it will be available at a severely discounted price.  I am still wondering why I need targums whatever those are from L3...another wasted interface.  My philosophy buy what I need when I need it for the project I'm working on.  Good selection of books in the library, way to expensive on nearly all the products above Scholar package, and several orphan interfaces will happen when the next great leap forward hits with L5  (Hal 2000 I suspect).   Nothing unethical as far as I can see....just another family company going the route of Microsoft...just hope a better cheaper product doesn't hit before Logos hog ties the multi platform e-book environment.  Talk about price increases then...lol.

Blair Laird said:

They are charging retail value. They did not mark the retail up, but are charging fair price.(what the market deems fair) Those are new titles and are expected to be that price.

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The jury is still out as to whether or not the market (in which us the
customers are a major component) deems the price to be fair (many here do not
agree with that assessment).

The argument according to which prices are MSRP because we are dealing with
new titles that are expected to be that price is not valid

 Jesus according to Scripture has
been out since 2002 (some of the research might be already dated) with a
paperback edition having been issued for at least three years, however, the
prepub price is still the full-retail price. Here it is clearly not a matter of
new resources that "are expected to be that price". it is also
obvious that not many here expect or are planning to buy new resources at full
MSRP but expect something similar to what is done with print resources that are
substantially discounted even before publication by most retailers.

The problem is not really the real value of those books (including costs
that might be unknown to the buyer), the problem is the perceived value of the
books and the fact that the perceived value is greatly influenced by the
discounted price of the print edition and past pricing policies in the prepub
system.

As some have mentioned, many new releases have been published through the old
prepub system, it is hard to sell the necessity for a new system (whether or
not it has real merits and is dictated by the cost structure). It is all about
perception and the perception is not good.

Alain 

Bob Pritchett said:

Electronic resources are not inherently cheaper to produce than paper;

I've probably been mislead but it has been propagated by major media that publishers now prepare their new books electronically first, then deliver that to the presses for paper based publication I know part of the Logos preparation includes tagging & other features not relative to the print media but it seems it should be a tad faster starting with digital source instead of "reverse conversion" back from paper books.

Bob Pritchett said:

The good news is, we haven't taken anything of the "old model" away. We're still offering fantastic deals on lots of books on pre-pub. But the old model never had this simultaneous print/e-book release of new titles, with the latest books that are being required by professors, used in today's classrooms, etc.

I think it is great for seminary students to have digital versions of their academic titles. I am interested to see how long it takes before the paper book industry gets around to publishing works that originate in digital format only. I am so happy Logos published An Exposition on Prayer in the Bible (5 Vols.)  http://www.logos.com/products/details/3439 by Dr. Jim Rosscup. I imagine there are other great works that have been written yet remain unpublished. If these current top line resources could be highlighted separately from the sale prices in Pre-Pubs it would be easier to ponder their purchase. The shock of going from a $12 public domain tome to an $87 academic essay pamphlete is pretty stark sometimes.

P. Keith Larson said:

Just to give an example of how ridiculous these prices are; one of the resources has a SRP of $17.99.

Logos eBook: $17.99

Amazon Paperback: $12.23

Kindle eBook: $9.99

I like having books in my Logos library, but NOT that much.

That is comparing apples and studebakers (as a friend of mine likes to say).

Do the other electronic formats provide the capabilities of Logos format titles?

I don't buy a Logos title to "read."

It is a part of my electronic Bible study library. I have access to the information that I need In seconds, even if I don't know I have it or where it is. Those benefits do not come without a cost to the publisher (Logos). 

That is why I buy Logos.

I'm not interested in other electronic formats.

Edwin, you and I see this differently, although I have not used the terms you have mentioned such as,"gouging","ripoff" and "moneychangers".  I see the use of such terms as being good, not bad.

Bob is running a large company that he desires to grow, into a bigger and better comany, he has sought feed back, and if he is half as smart as I think he is, he understands that he could spend a fortune trying to find out the information he is finding out for free on these forums.

If I was in his position and my customers were thinking or feeling like my company was gouging, trying to rip people off and were  moneychangers I would want to know that.  I would rather know the truth about how they were feeling than to have everyone be "nice" and not tell me the truth about how they feel. 

Of course I see this as one of the problems I see in many churches, we want everyone to be nice, even when the feel other wise.  Many people catch on and play the game, and because of that they are never helped.  I believe that Logos is far better off to know how people are really feeling than to be left in the dark. 

I want to make one thing clear to Bob, I support Logos, and I have been moved many times to praise God not only for all the improvements I have seen in your software, but even more for your attitude towards those that have said negative things about some of the things you have done.  Your attitude shows me alot about your walk with God and how He is working in your life. And for that I find myself constantly giving thanks to Him!

By the way Edwin, I deal with a lot of people teaching them how to use electronic bible programs, one of the often heard complains against Logos is that the company is charging to much for their products, I am constantly hearing this charge, so the complaints I have seen in this tread are minor in this area of cost compared with what I hear in the free market. 

Of course, the main reasons they feel this way is that many of their products are spendy, and many never hear of the great deals(recent upgrade packages), and most people have no idea, how this system can change the way we study and learn.  If they did they would be more accepting of the price, but the truth is they are on the edge of pricing people like me out of the market, even knowing what I know, I am getting on the edge of not being able to afford it !!!  There are also so great christian schools out there and they charge large amounts of money to attend them, they are worth the money and maybe even more, but I know of a lot of pastors that can not attend them because they just don't have that kind of money.  Logos is on the edge of going over the line, and servicing only a small group of people with money. Bob needs to hear these complaint that are being made, what he does is up to him.

Edwin, I am afraid we will just disagree on this.

In Christ,

Jim

JimVanSchoonhoven said:

Edwin, you and I see this differently, although I have not used the terms you have mentioned such as,"gouging","ripoff" and "moneychangers".  I see the use of such terms as being good, not bad.

Bob is running a large company that he desires to grow, into a bigger and better comany, he has sought feed back, and if he is half as smart as I think he is, he understands that he could spend a fortune trying to find out the information he is finding out for free on these forums.

If I was in his position and my customers were thinking or feeling like my company was gouging, trying to rip people off and were  moneychangers I would want to know that.  I would rather know the truth about how they were feeling than to have everyone be "nice" and not tell me the truth about how they feel. 

Of course I see this as one of the problems I see in many churches, we want everyone to be nice, even when the feel other wise.  Many people catch on and play the game, and because of that they are never helped.  I believe that Logos is far better off to know how people are really feeling than to be left in the dark. 

I want to make one thing clear to Bob, I support Logos, and I have been moved many times to praise God not only for all the improvements I have seen in your software, but even more for your attitude towards those that have said negative things about some of the things you have done.  Your attitude shows me alot about your walk with God and how He is working in your life. And for that I find myself constantly giving thanks to Him!

By the way Edwin, I deal with a lot of people teaching them how to use electronic bible programs, one of the often heard complains against Logos is that the company is charging to much for their products, I am constantly hearing this charge, so the complaints I have seen in this tread are minor in this area of cost compared with what I hear in the free market. 

Of course, the main reasons they feel this way is that many of their products are spendy, and many never hear of the great deals(recent upgrade packages), and most people have no idea, how this system can change the way we study and learn.  If they did they would be more accepting of the price, but the truth is they are on the edge of pricing people like me out of the market, even knowing what I know, I am getting on the edge of not being able to afford it !!!  There are also so great christian schools out there and they charge large amounts of money to attend them, they are worth the money and maybe even more, but I know of a lot of pastors that can not attend them because they just don't have that kind of money.  Logos is on the edge of going over the line, and servicing only a small group of people with money. Bob needs to hear these complaint that are being made, what he does is up to him.

Edwin, I am afraid we will just disagree on this.

In Christ,

Jim

Jim,

Although we may disagree on some issues, I appreciate your civil responses.

One of my frustrations in over 60 years of church life and over 20 years in Christian publishing is the prevalent attitude among Christians that if something is "Christian" it should be free or very cheap. Most who have that opinion have never dealt with the realities of business finances. Everything costs someone something.

It is also hard to compare pricing on other secular things to those which are specifically "Christian." There is not the volume savings that secular items enjoy.

Publishing in general, and Chrisian publishing and retailing in particular have been hard hit in recent years (even before the overall economic downturn).  It is obvious that Logos has been successful while others have floundered. Bob has been wise in his business decisions. He has actually so spoiled us with the bargains that he offers, that we assume that everything from Logos will be a bargain.  

None of us know the details that brought the newest Baker and Zondervan titles to Logos. Bob may not have liked the pricing himself, but his customers (us) were asking him for these titles. He provided the product we said we wanted. I believe that Bob got the best deal available to Logos.

It seems that the other option would to wait longer for those Baker titles to become available. Zondervan could have continued to be independent and publish their own titles exclusively. We may not like the pricing, but at least we will have the opportunity to purchae titles not previously available to Logos users.

It is a quickly changing world out there. Logos has shown that they are trying to respond in a timely fashion.

Edwin

Matthew C Jones said:

Maybe you are unaware that Zondervan already does deliver digital content outside of Logos. (& I'm not taliking about Pradis.) There is absolutely no loyalty/faithfulness by Zondervan in this Zondervan/Logos marriage. Z has been cheating with the others for a long time.

????

Edwin, my main concerns are that I believe Bob has asked for opinions to help him stay on top of things, I think he really wants to know the good, the bad and the ugly. 

Yet we as believers might try to keep him from hearing the things he desires to hear, the things that will help him the most.  The ugly!

Like I said before, I believe Bob is very smart as well as being an example of walking by faith. 

 I believe these boards are giving him the kind of feed back that sometimes even money can;t buy.  And you are right I doubt any of us understands the things he goes through and how hard his choices are to make, but the more accurate his feedback is the better chance he will have to make the right choice.

Thanks for your kind conversation I will bow out now.

In Christ,

Jim