Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)

I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.

I want to begin by saying how much I have appreciated the Pre-pub system in the past. It truly has been a win-win program for me. Thank you very much for many great books at a great price.

This is why I am so alarmed by the changes I have been seeing on the Pre-pub page. I can understand publisher wanting to get "front-list" profits from "front-list" titles. I can also understand the your higher production cost and smaller customer base means that you don't have as much margin as Amazon does with their 50% and if it takes the MSRP to bring "front-line" titles into production today. But such titles do not belong on the Pre-pub page or at least the Pre-pub page needs to modify its description by no longer promises a win-win scenario to your customers.

I welcome your feedback on whether or not that's important.

Hi Bob,

I think it's WONDERFUL that we have an opportunity to get front-list titles earlier.

Most of the confusion on the forums seems to be around your past policy on prepubs--you've been successful at educating us to expect a discounted price.

I think we're hearing you loud & clear, too, that front-list titles have to pay for themselves before they become eligible for the discounts we're all hoping for (whether via inclusion in collections, or by single title).

To me it looks like there are at least 3 ways forward, all of which I HOPE will keep Logos on the path of getting front-list e-works to us earlier... Here are the 3 I thought of:

1. PREPUB. Stay on the current path (introduce front-list titles via prepub). If so, we're likely to continue to be confused with each new introduction of a publishing house (1st Zondervan, now Baker, next...?)
2. CONSUMER PRICING. Since you're also concerned about cost recovery, use the other method you have for introducing new titles: consumer pricing.
   The main advantage to this method would be that you already have it. The main disadvantage would be the same as with the 1st method: you've already trained us to expect low prices via this method of book purchase.
3. SOMETHING NEW. Give front-list titles their own space, about which you can educate us on the value of front-list titles, received earlier, & having all the benefits we've come to expect in a Logos resource.

Many blessings on your decision, & thanks for allowing (even inviting) us to weigh in...

Blessings to you!

I can't tell if you're joking or not, but I think we all need to wait a little bit and see if Logos has any response to these concerns and/or if the price changes. In other words, I shouldn't be unwise by jumping on a pre-pub immediately if it's too expensive for my budget, but I also shouldn't assume there's some kind of conspiracy.

I was not suggesting a conspiracy or anything remotely unethical. However, I was not joking. This is a win-lose scenario if I ever saw one. The only conceivable "win" those who are placing these order will get is that they are helping a book go into production that they want in Logos format.

If the auto industry did this, GM for example would have put the Volt on a pre-manufacturing page by calculating the development and production costs, dividing this by how many people they estimate believe in global warming and posting this price on the internet. GM has no risk in development and production and those who purchase the Volt for twice as much as a normal sub-compact have the reward of thinking they have saved the world from a melt down. [:D]

I am disappointed in the tone of many posts on this thread.

What tone?  The holier-than-thou tone?

As ususal, Bob is quite reasonable.  His point about simultaneous print / e-book release is well taken.  I can see why a publisher would want simultaneous release to be equally priced - (though that is not the case with e-book novels released through Kindlle.)  A publisher cannot be expected to hurt his own profits.

I prefer my resources through Logos, and appreciate what they offer.  It is the quality and variety of what is offered that makes Logos so valuable.  I realize that costs.

Of course, reality is that most of us have invested heavily in Logos during the L4 upgrade.  Many of us have gone beyond the upgrade and purchased more additonal books to take advantage of the L4 features.  Unlike the federal government, my deficit spending must come to an end.  I had hoped to be able to replace almost all my paper books with Logos reources.  I now see the foolishness of that.  I will have to continue to use a variety of formats in study - Logos where possible, paper where necessary financially, pdf, html and whatever else I can afford.  I think many are in similar circumstances.  The tremendous volume of sales during the L4 startup was never expected to sustain.

I do not think any of us want to participate in any organized boycott of any Logos resources.  What I can afford, I will buy.  What I can't I will not buy.  But I will not be ungrateful to Logos or Bob for the wonderful tool they have given us.  I hope they sale a ton of Baker Books.  Maybe this will get upgrades to several commentaries already in Logos format out quicker.

Baker might one day see an advantage to provide good front-end discounts on bundles of new titles even if individual eBooks sell at or close to the same as the US retail price.

HOWEVER, for those of us living outside USA, there remain a couple of major advantages to having the title available in Logos format:

• most publisher charge a significant premium over and above the currency exchange rate when they tack on the Canadian or UK price for a new title which we can now get at the lower US retail price
• we do not have to pay significant shipping charges which wipe out any small price discount (like 25% or 33%) that Amazon might offer from US retail
• we do not have to buy bigger houses and more bookshelves to house ever expanding libraries, and we do not have to pay a fortune to ship the library when we re-locate

NEVERTHELESS, if new Baker titles are going to depend on the much smaller base of Logos overseas customers to get into production it is going to take a while longer than it would otherwise, and we SHOULD expect a much lower actual price if it does indeed take years from first print release for these titles to be published electronically....... 

The pre-pub program clearly states that customers should expect a discount, when it isn't delivered, there is going to be issues with customers who expect the discount for signing up.  Maybe the wording needs to be changed, so we don't expect too much. 

Logos books are kind of a catch 22 for me (yes I read the book)...  They carry more of a risk, (I have books that are over 100 yrs old and I don't get that kind of shelf life guarentee with my Logos resources)... yet my Logos resources are more 'usable'... 

Maybe we have been spoiled in expecting discounts.... however, if it is part of the pre-pub program, I don't think those expectations of discounts we are accustomed to are out of line...

Which brings me back to maybe the pre-pub page needs some updating concerning it's wording and what the customer should expect...  (which has always been a discount)...

I think the freedom to call the president a dictator is what makes me proud to be an American.

Remember that old joke about the American talking to the Russian.  The American says, "In my country I can stand on any street corner and shout the President of the USA is a crook!"  The Russian says, "We can do that in my country, too."  The American replied, "You can say the the premier of Russia is a crook?"  The Russian said, "No, they shoot you for that, but we can say the President of the USA is a crook."

Check the Pre-pubs page again (perhaps a "refresh" may be needed), the wording has already been changed to reflect the addition of the Baker products using the new model for their new-release titles......

Logos is almost always good at dealing with situation and issues that arise and I am grateful that Bob is always willing to address our concerns from the very top.

However, Logos could do even better by preempting  the occurrence of the issue in the first place by communicating changes in advance as part of a PR/marketing effort. A lot of frustration could have been avoided for Logos 4 deployment or this most recent prepub issue if the changes were communicated beforehand in light of these rather foreseeable reactions.

It is never a good thing when customers discover a change in policy or business model as a result of someone complaining about it. In those situations the only thing that is left is damage control and "selling" the changes becomes an almost impossible task.

My advice to Logos is to be more proactive and less reactive and try harder to identify potential explosive situations and put a positive spin on it and explain what is going on before the complaints start coming.

Alain

What I see is a much larger percentage of books in pre-pub that are of interest to me - I hope that the Logos/Baker venture is a success so that a broader range of materials are supported.

Without a doubt we will have more front-line books available, but at the cost of all front-line books going up in price to 100% of MSRP. Below is a clipping for a very attractive front-line resource under the old pre-pub price structure. If this Baker experiment is successful, what motivation does IVP or any other publisher have to sell their books at less than 100% MSRP?

The law of supply and demand will find the highest price Logos can sell books for, just like the laws of gravity and friction can make me fall when I clear my drive later today. However, I don't plan to help the laws of gravity and friction anymore than I have to! As a consumer it behooves us to not help out price inflation either.

NOW THIS IS A GREAT FRONT-LINE PRE-PUB!

A variety of issues come up in this thread, and some of them get confused. Worse, some people make suggestions to fix things that would do exactly the opposite.

As some have correctly pointed out, the PrePub idea (which is a Logos concept, not a "generic" idea fundamental to e-books) is to offer discounts to those who help Logos cover production costs...thus a "win-win" as the saying goes and the PrePub page promises. Now, with Zondervan and Baker, the pattern of providing new titles at PrePub discount is taken away...there is no discount. That's fine, in light of Bob's explanation (though neither Logos nor Z & B will see a red cent from me). But now I see some folks suggesting that the PrePub page should be changed to reflect "the new reality" that sometimes "win-win" doesn't apply, or that discounts won't always be offered.

That's ridiculous.

No...the "new reality" is that sometimes Logos will offer items that are NOT PrePubs. Zondervan's bloated and overpriced all-or-nothing "discount" package is a PrePub, though one I won't touch on principle. The individually priced items from the Z catalog that sell at SRP are NOT PrePubs, and Logos should stop calling them PrePubs. I am capitalizing "PrePub" on purpose because that is a name Logos itself has established for a certain set of criteria, a criterion they are abusing by calling things PrePubs just because they are "new" to the Logos stable and/or catalog. The Baker items ARE NOT PrePubs...period.  The fact that they are being offered before they are available (i.e. previous to being published) does not make them PrePubs. In other words, the may be pre-pubs, but not PrePubs.

Logos, rather than igniting unnecessary confusion over "in-house" semantics that they have themselves engendered, should simply offer non-discounted "pre-pubs" on a different page with a different name...something catchy like "Non-Discounted New Items That Can Be Purchased for 25-75% less on Amazon TODAY and Be In Your Hands In 72 Hours...Not 72 Weeks". That would end the confusion, and also speak a bit of truth to power.

On the issue of increasing potential "availability" of material from various publishers and the concept that rolling over to expose our soft underbellies to the corporate machines will make their entrance into the Logos marketplace more palatable, I'm can only shake my head in stunned disbelief. That is a martyrdom complex run amok...it almost sounds like an abused wife who stays with the guy she wants to "love" her because he reminds her of "daddy", who likewise abused her and she hopes to somehow make everything turn out right. Jacob, I'm sure your a swell guy, but with comments like...

I certainly am one who is willing to pay a little more than retail (depending on the release) to have it in Logos. I hope that there is a critical mass of people like me who will make Christian publishers quick to see digital as a viable market; if not a duplicate market (I own many in both formats). 

...I frankly don't think I have any other way to see you except as the enemy. Your cheerful willingness to pay top dollar is bizarre and adversarial to the interests of every Logos customer who wants and in some cases needs to squeeze as much value out of the limited budgets they can direct toward Biblical resources. It is also the kind of attitude that causes a publisher to salivate...easy pickin's always whet a carnivore's appetite. Having been in sales, I know that the customer who lets on that price is no object gets raked over the coals compared to a wise customer who displays the normal demeanor of cost consciousness. MJ's concern above, that other publishers be enticed to enter the Logos market, is made of similar stuff. If the publlishers he/she [sorry...but the initials leave me clueless] mentioned can't see the Logos marketplace as one of their best potential markets, they are blind. Keith's recurrent comments about the marketplace and how it functions are straight to the point.

As a Logos Portfolio owner who is not well-pleased with L4 (I basically avoid it except for specialty searches), I am still grateful for what Logos has done...up to a point. I am not a pastor/minister nor a teacher/professor, so the "attention" or "discounts" or whatever people in those categories may receive (I know they get some kind of special attention, because I get asked if I am in one of those groups whenever I call CS) is not proffered to me. No, I pay the "regular" price (whatever it may be in a given situation) out of pocket. I'm not blowing an assigned "book budget" but rather my own hard-earned Benjamins. I personally find that even the PrePub prices in many instances are obnoxiously bloated. I am aware that there are "costs" to doing business...welcome to Free Enterprise, the water is extremely warm. But as I pointed out in a thread elsewhere, there is a principle related to the whole e-book concept that seems to be getting lost in the giddiness of what these resources can do for our research as a result of hyperlinking.

These days, for some odd reason, the very high-ticket items, such as ABD & ABible, Word, ICC, NICxx, and the host of other similar multi-volume items that were once purchased almost exclusively by institutions or by groups who could share the cost burden (and the resource), are now, by fiat of the sacred EULA, supposed to be purchased per user. That's well nigh to insane. Simply from a historical perspective, there was a time when a purchased  hardcopy book could be read by anybody who laid hands on it...and don't you just know it, it's still that way! Suddenly though, purely as a result of the improved utility of the digital resource, the expectation has spawned that EACH AND EVERY SOUL WHO DEIGNS TO PERUSE A GIVEN RESOURCE AS AN E-BOOK IS EXPECTED TO PURCHASE THEIR OWN COPY. That's unadulterated ****. Unless...

Now, perhaps...because of resultant technology, maybe it is true that the practicality and logistics of the medium mean that the concept of "to each his own" is the best and most workable method of delivery for these resources. But if that is the case, THEN there ought to be a recognition of the fact that suddenly MANY MORE copies of the resources are going to be purchased than was ever the case before. That sudden spike in sales should initiate a significant price reduction in the resources...emphasis on the word SIGNIFICANT.  You don't want to reduce the price? Fine...then forgo the "to each his own" concept. Simply recognize and AUTHORIZE the blatantly obvious notion that encyclopedias and dictionaries are inherently designed to be used by MULTIPLE USERS.

I'm not suggesting something for nothing--I've paid many thousands of dollars against that concept. I'm saying that you (the producer) get a choice...you can charge the consumer the standard fee for items DESIGNED to be used by multiple parties AND FACILITATE that method of usage (say for instance allowing me and 4-6 other Logos users to pool our resources so that we can share the financial burden of high-ticket items). Or enforce a "per user" system but compensate the customer by reducing the cost SUBSTANTIALLY...and I mean on the order of base packages but for ALL items offered in the Logos library (with perhaps a 1-2 year window for the newest items). What I find obscene is the idea that "we're going to make you pay per user (a historical anomaly) AND charge you more in the process."

Oh...those of you (not the Logos faculty) who seem to earn your living as unabashed Logos apologists, hammering any comment that so much as insinuates Logos hasn't been delivered unto us, the unwashed masses, in a state of sublime perfection, while you characterize any customer suggestion that "all things Logos are less than perfect" to be an infraction akin to a mortal sin...save it. Better yet...stuff it. I'm frankly sick and tired of your blather. As the guy who trains world class profession athletes said above...and anyone with higher than a grade school education knows...criticism is the path to improvement. Your Christian pose isn't Christianity. Stop the stormtrooper shtick and let people who have dropped $XXXXX.00 putting Bob's kids through college have their say...they are entitled to it. I don't need to hear you say Bob can run his own business--again--and again. I'm a customer giving a businessman a hint as to how to successfully pick my pocket. Gripes are part of the package. Please save the sanctimonious Pharisaical sham for someone who won't call it out for the holier-than-thou hypocritical farce it really is.

One more thing...L4 isn't perfect. Get over it.

I fail to see from where you are getting this change in philosophy and strategy. 
This is an additional way of doing some new things not a change for everything. 
For most cases the pre-pub concept and significant discounts remain as always.

What has happened is that a couple of new additions have been made with a different approach, the whole pre-pub concept has not changed.

Zondervan have offered some of their titles, and Baker have offered some new titles rather than just their older ones.  If neither of them has yet learned that they can sell more to Logos users if they follow the earlier pattern and offer a significant pre-pub discount, then they will miss out.  Apparently they have some inertia internally which is far from aligned to selling via the Logos format.  We can prove to them that their reluctance is well founded by avoiding their offerings.

I think you are making an erroneous assumption however if you think we will always have the opportunity to pick the new titles up later if we do nothing now.  If not enough sales are likely per these pre-pubs then no Logos edition will be produced.  Then your only option will be a paper copy.  Those who are satisfied with that state of affairs need do nothing. 

The pre-pub concept is and always has been a means of testing whether or not there is enough interest to produce a Logos edition of the title.  If there is not enough interest it will just not happen.  Both Zondervan and Baker are obviously somewhat reluctant to go the Logos route.  If Logos customers show lack of interest too, this will confirm to both of them that they should not bother offereing titles in Logos format.  Win-win ? Hardly.....