Is it really the Encyclopedia Britannica as we might of thought?
Comments
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Bruce Dunning said:Greg F said:
almost deliberately so
They have clearly said that this was not deliberate but was a mistake. Saying "deliberately" speaks to motive and I don't think any of us are able to properly assess that. Nor should we.
[y]
For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com
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David Walsh said:
Hi, I purchased and returned immediately. I have been a Logos customer for about 10 years and have spent tens of thousands of pounds on various products and schemes offered by Faithlife. I use Logos 6 everyday and for the most part enjoy. This smacks of a great lack of integrity on the part of Faithlife in wanting to obtain money, not just for old rope (again), but for a seriously flawed and sub standard product. To say miscommunication is a lie. What am I buying? How much for? are the two basic questions in any business. Please admit your scam and go a long way to repent and put it right. I am seriously considering whether to withdraw my custom and all my support of Logos and their products. Faithlife must set a higher standard as professed followers of Jesus. You have let your customer base down and up your game.
Certainly Faithlife made a major mistake but your response is very strong and doesn't seem to take into account their official explanation of what happened. We must all be very careful not to judge other people's motives because we simply don't know them.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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David Walsh said:
.
To say miscommunication is a lie. <...> Please admit your scam and go a long way to repent and put it right:
It must have been miscommunication.
Do you really think Faithlife would try to scam such a big group of people and continue doing business?
It would make sense if Faithlife would collect money and then simply disappear. But it really doesn't make sense to say that Faithlife would collect money, deliver the wrong product deliberately and hope no-one would notice. It is simply impossible.[:)]
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Thank you Sir for taking the time to reply to my questions!
Also thank you for your honesty!Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:The best I can tell from talking to their team and reading back through past email correspondence, someone from there team gave us the 25,000 number. Our team trusted that it was accurate and didn't verify it with the team that produced the product. What seems to have happened—and I'm speculating—is that this individual neglected to take into consideration that EB doesn't have sub-licensing rights on all their media and was able to include only the media owned by them. So we got 100% of the media that they can give us, but not 100% of the media they have. We'll do our best to include as much media as we can from Encyclopedia Britannica, along with the media we delivered with Compton's. We'll make sure the updated page has accurate counts of articles, media, etc. I'm sorry for this inaccuracy.
It is disappointing to hear that there are so few images that [might] come with this encyclopedia (less than 1/10 of what was advertised). i understand FL's position with EB on the sub-licensing. i hope that sometime in the near future that ya'll will get accurate details on what the new version of the encyclopedia will contain and post it on the product page. i am guessing that you will have this info prior to starting work on the replacement encyclopedia.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:We'll check to see if they have higher resolution images that we can use.
That would be helpful for the images that will appear in the encyclopedia. It would also be helpful to let us know in advance approximately how many of the images that will be higher resolution (e.g. percentage of pictures and approximate resolution).
One other question. When will the new Pre-Pub product page be available on FL for this new replacement encyclopedia?
i searched last night on the Logos & Noet site for this new Pre-Pub page and did not find it.
Thank you again for taking time to answer my questions!
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This situation (thread) was getting so much better. True healing was going on. Then someone just had to try to peak under the scab.
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I simply demanded a refund. I'll leave this thread to the Sunday school moralisers and the Faithlife fanclub.
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Mark Barnes said:David Walsh said:
Please admit your scam and go a long way to repent and put it right.
It sounds very much that you didn't bother to read the thread and see the official Logos response: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/117294/770418.aspx#770418
You've made some serious allegations that conflict significantly with what Faithlife have said since these problems came to light. I suggest you either back those allegations with evidence, you admit you are wrong and go a long way to repent and put your false allegations right.
Ted Hans said:Agreed
. This is one serious charge! I hope David takes the time to read the various responses from Faithlife on this thread.David simply put - you are wrong!
But you've used some harsh language, and less than full understanding of the facts.
Faithlife and Bob have been and are always willing to go the extra mile to make things right. As I found out recently even when its not their mistake (long story). Bob and co are men & people of integrity. If they say it was a communication snafu, then I believe that it most certainly was. At this juncture lying wins them no friends, and only creates more problems. What is their motive? To save the sales? to keep from losing money? They most certainly have done enough to keep - I presume - most of the sales (and certainly did enough for me to re-instate my own purchase), they have added value - probably 10-60,000 more articles - and at no extra cost. They are certainly going to fix the tagging. We will (Eventually) get everything marketing promised. Plus if I had to guess based on past experiences and issues they are having meetings right now (or have already) on how to prevent this from happening in the future. I bet they institute a system of checks and balances to keep this from happening again. Because neither vendor nor customer wants this sort of thing to happen.
Have you never had a miscommunication with your wife? And you two share a home. Logos has almost 250x that number of people involved in multiple countries, and at multiple sites within those countries. The opportunity for miscommunication is huge. The important part is that they make things right - and they have. I doubt that Bob or FL would pursue it. But basically what you've done is committed an act of libel, something that could be (and likely wont because Bob and co are good guys) followed up legally.
What other company lets you slander them in their own forums? I've seen people banned elsewhere for less.
That is your right - to request a refund. They will certainly give it to you; though I think it might be short sighted. The refund window is extended until 30 days after the repaired product ships.Greg F said:I simply demanded a refund. I'll leave this thread to the Sunday school moralisers and the Faithlife fanclub.
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You're mixing up your threads/commenters, Abondservant.
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Well I suppose I could have been more specific. Sorry and I'll correct that.Greg F said:You're mixing up your threads/commenters, Abondservant.
Really only the first line pertained to you. I copied your quote, and that one line to the end, then expanded it a touch.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Careful Sir...
abondservant said:We will (Eventually) get everything marketing promised.
Probably not true. Did you read Phil's response on promised images? There will probably Not be 25,000 images as promised. Please carefully read Phil's response. So they will probably need to re-write the product page to reflect what will actually be in the replacement encyclopedia.
[not trying to start a flame war here, but lets use the facts brother]
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Greg F said:
I simply demanded a refund.
You didn't need to 'demand' one, because it's already been offered. All you need to do is to take Faithlife up on their offer to fix the mess that they've acknowledged they've created.
Greg F said:I'll leave this thread to the Sunday school moralisers and the Faithlife fanclub.
But ad hominen attacks on fellow forum users don't help anyone, even if they're followed by a smiley. I know people are angry and understandably upset, but let's keep this civil.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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steve clark said:abondservant said:
We will (Eventually) get everything marketing promised.
Probably not true. Did you read Phil's response on promised images? There will probably Not be 25,000 images as promised. Please carefully read Phil's response. So they will probably need to re-write the product page to reflect what will actually be in the replacement encyclopedia.
[not trying to start a flame war here, but lets use the facts brother]
Agreed. Whatever happens, we're going to get something different from what was promised. Because the original product description was so mixed up, it won't be possible to deliver exactly what was originally promised. That's obviously far from ideal, but those who are not satisfied have been promised a full refund on request.
But I'm hoping we might end up with something I think is better than what was promised. We might end up with more articles and less images, for example, which would suit me better.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
But I'm hoping we might end up with something I think is better than what was promised. We might end up with more articles and less images, for example, which would suit me better.
That would suit me better too. I am hopeful the final product is focused on the classics and history. (a real NOET edition.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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True enough. The images were an issue that really doesn't affect me in terms of the way in which I use Logos.Mark Barnes said:But I'm hoping we might end up with something I think is better than what was promised. We might end up with more articles and less images, for example, which would suit me better.
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I noticed some other things too that were odd... I've reported the typos.
For instance, if you jump to the article on John Calvin (where the Institutes are mentioned but not linked?!) and scroll down a few entries you'll see one on "calypso music" that should be listed as "Calypso Music".
Further down, some headings are bold and centered, others not, and aligned left. Observe:
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abondservant said:
Further down, some headings are bold and centered, others not, and aligned left.
The left aligned headings are "Heading 2", the centre ones are "Heading 3".
I'm surprised you didn't mention that there's never a space after "See also"!
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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The issues are manyMark Barnes said:abondservant said:Further down, some headings are bold and centered, others not, and aligned left.
The left aligned headings are "Heading 2", the centre ones are "Heading 3".
I'm surprised you didn't mention that there's never a space after "See also"!
. I know they will fix it though.
Heading 3 shouldn't ever draw more attention than heading 2, or heading 1 I wouldn't think?
Heading 1 (major article)Heading 2 (major subdivision of article)
Heading 3 (further divisions). Right?
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Greg F said:
I simply demanded a refund. I'll leave this thread to the Sunday school moralisers and the Faithlife fanclub.
I use FL daily but I am not one to hold my tongue if i think something wrong has happened. The only way I could say there has been any intentional misdoing on FL part, might be in your charge that SOMEONE must have realized the mistake before it's release. But I will not guarantee that this had happened (people busy at their jobs putting the information in place they were given, possibly telling higher ups. we are not done yet we will show it to you when we are done, and if like me you didn't have access to the full version, looking at one of the longer articles you might not notice anything is wrong unless you sat down to read it). I am still looking forward to getting Brittanica in it's Noet version, but I also have decided to do something many people might do instead of buying it here. I have paid the $14.99 to have a year long subscription for it on my iPad, not as nice having an offline edition, but I can live with it, unlike some cloud based programs Britannica seems very fast on my iPad.
Faithlife made a mistake, faithlife is working to make sure this error is corrected, I am happy with their actions to correct it even if the original product was very sub par. If this makes me a member of the "fan club" I am.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
Faithlife made a mistake, faithlife is working to make sure this error is corrected, I am happy with their actions to correct it even if the original product was very sub par. If this makes me a member of the "fan club" I am.
Well said Dan
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Greg F said:
Really? I was expecting something somewhat more apologetic than self-congratulatory.
I am very sorry we disappointed you. We clearly didn't pay enough attention to this large and important project.
It's no excuse, but as part of the explanation, we process something like 20 new volumes every day (5,000+ / year). The process is very streamlined and involves around 550 people on two continents. In general this works very well for you: costs are controlled, the process runs smoothly, and we're able to continually deliver new books. But if there's a communication misunderstanding at the start, the process still runs smoothly, just putting the wrong thing through the system. That appears to be what happened here.
There was a mistake (involving a misunderstanding between us and Britannica and (separately) our marketing team). The mistake was months ago, when the database that got delivered and the marketing describing it were out of sync; this happened because we wrote the description of what we thought we were getting, and the actual data was delivered to 'the production silo' of the company, as is every title. The production process ran pretty smoothly and delivered as normal; the marketing and product weren't re-compared at release because that's never a problem -- most books only have one clear, distinct identity. We don't get 'the wrong content' because there's only one 'content' in existence for a title. This was a rare and very unusual situation where 'Encyclopaedia Britannica' has (to the publisher and rights holder) a fluid definition and where there wasn't a single, specific print copy in hand to compare to. (Comparing to print is part of our normal process, but this database no longer has a direct print equivalent.)
I must confess, I didn't see this is a big deal at first: a mistake was made months ago, and the mistake revealed this week. We jumped right on it and came up with what seems to be a satisfactory solution, marred only by the delay it will take to deliver the correction. We've offered an apology and full refund. We haven't tried to dodge or shirk responsibility.
There was no intentional deception, and it's hard to understand how anyone could think there was: What benefit is there to a company to intentionally misrepresent something that will be empirically testable immediately on release? (Okay, Vollkswagen tried to cheat emissions test, but demonstrably were able to go many years without anyone testing outside a lab, and must have believed no one would. But if I saw a weather app report that tomorrow's sunrise would be at 10 am, instead of 7:22 am, I'd presume that was a mistake, not an intentional deception -- there'd be no point!)
It's as if we shot ourselves in the foot in the middle of the night, and people are suggesting that it was part of our plan to disrupt their sleep with loud noises. :-)
I see that this is a bigger deal than I'd thought, though. While it's just one of the thousands of titles we'll ship this year, it was a large and very anticipated one; more of our team should have given it more attention all along the way.
I am sorry that we let you down, and we will take this lesson and learn from it. In the future, we will be clearer about what 'some' articles means, about the definition of a particular resource collection, and about confirming that the content we got is the content users are expecting, before we ship the product.
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Super.Tramp said:
That would suit me better too. I am hopeful the final product is focused on the classics and history. (a real NOET edition.)
I hope too. That is the reason why I finally bought it.
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David Walsh said:
Please admit your scam and go a long way to repent and put it right.
I'm sorry we disappointed you, and that you feel this is a scam.
I hope you'll consider a different possibility, though: we made a mistake, and now we're fixing it.
As a scam, it's actually not even plausible: it cost us the same to process and tag all the wrong articles as to tag the right ones. To fix this problem we'll be incurring significant expense, and effectively doing the same work twice. We didn't deny the error or try to force anyone to accept the wrong database.
You say you've been a customer for ten years; I trust you haven't felt scammed all that time, and hope you'll give us the benefit of the doubt here, and accept what is the true (as well as more plausible!) answer: A company with 24 years of history selling 70,000 different ebooks wouldn't suddenly switch business models to running 'scams' just so they could deliver one of the 70,000 different titles with a different text, which would be instantly discovered by their users, resulting in bad press, bad will, and the expense of re-doing all the work...
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A question and a few quick observations:
1. I'm having my sales rep run the order on this so it can be added to my Payment Plan (I'm ordering a few additional resources as well). If he does this, since I got in on the $99.95 price, will that price still be honored, as well as will I receive "Compton's" now and receive the larger Britannica later when it ships at no extra cost?
2. GREAT message from Phil. Thank you for responding, for caring, and for making things right. Well well written.
3. In terms of Britannica, here's why I want an edition of it in Logos. I actually have access to Britannica Academic free from my school. I even have access to the Theological Journals and even access to plenty of Christian eBooks, all free from my school. However, I typically NEVER use my school's free library resources. Why? The web interfaces are so clunky and difficult to search and cite in papers, in terms of books, I have to check them out and return them when done, and I can never easily find the information I need, even after attending free webinars and training from my school. With Logos, I own the books, so even when I leave seminary, I still have access to them. Everything is integrated into a seamless, unified, consistent search engine that makes it a breeze for me to mine my library for information, cite sources in papers, etc. It's such a difference between the web interface, which is why I definitely want an addition of Britannica in Logos so I will actually heavily use it. I'm perfectly fine with having "Compton's" now and getting the larger Britannica when it ships. Works for me.
4. The most "disappointing" part of this for me was finding out that some eBook tagging is done in India. I thought all Logos eBook tagging was "lovingly hand tagged in Bellingham, WA" by people like Eli and Rick. That kind of burst my mental picture of how eBook tagging is done. :-) Nonetheless, I appreciate all of the Logos eBook taggers, whether they be in WA, India, or the North Pole. :-) (Please note I'm making the above comments in a humorous manner and not trying to say anything negative about any of the Logos tagging team).Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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I think if the FL team read the employee comments on the original thread about this sale, they would all understand the frustration much more.The issue was not malice, nor was it that there was no indication of problems. It was Faithlife failing to address the concerns of users about a greatly hyped product without detail. The frustration comes from the fact that the forum is full of people asking for samples, and all we got was a last minute table of contents with no indication of the actual content. Over and over again, people asked for details which never came, although one comment is very revealing in hindsight (top of page 3).
Sherri Huleatt said:I spoke with Britannica and they confirmed that Micro/Macropaedia content will not be included in the Noet edition.
Let me know if you have more questions!
Sherri
I think that FL promising to make good on what was originally advertised and giving us Compton's for free is neither a great marketing move nor a failure. It seems like common sense to deliver the product advertised and (especially in a digital world) to let them keep the 'broken' one. I have no complaints about how this was handled, but I think the original marketing and the ongoing unresponsiveness were the problems.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Justin Gatlin said:
I think if the FL team read the employee comments on the original thread about this sale, they would all understand the frustration much more.
I agree with you, Justin. I think that neither Bob nor Phil have read that thread. It gives the context for the frustration and suspicion we see in this thread. Users were uncertain of what was being offered and FL was giving no answers that were helpful. There was time. There were questions. There was uncertainty. It didn't just pop-up after the release. Yet no substantial answers were given
Bob and Phil (and others at FL) you should read the thread Justin references if you want to understand some of the strong feelings you are reading here.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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steve clark said:
It is disappointing to hear that there are so few images that [might] come with this encyclopedia (less than 1/10 of what was advertised). i understand FL's position with EB on the sub-licensing. i hope that sometime in the near future that ya'll will get accurate details on what the new version of the encyclopedia will contain and post it on the product page. i am guessing that you will have this info prior to starting work on the replacement encyclopedia.
It looks like we might be able to get quite a bit more media with EB. We're still sorting that out with them, but that should help get the media count up much higher.
We're working to finalize all the details and get accurate information up on the website, but we don't want to post anything until we're confident it's accurate.
steve clark said:That would be helpful for the images that will appear in the encyclopedia. It would also be helpful to let us know in advance approximately how many of the images that will be higher resolution (e.g. percentage of pictures and approximate resolution).
I'll see what we can do.
steve clark said:One other question. When will the new Pre-Pub product page be available on FL for this new replacement encyclopedia?
We'll probably end up posting three products:
- Encyclopedia Britannica and Compton's Encyclopedia Bundle: we'll convert the current product page into this one and put it back on Pre-Pub
- Encyclopedia Britannica: an EB-only product that will either go on Pre-Pub or perhaps just go live after the Pre-Pub bundle ships
- Compton's Encyclopedia: a Compton's-only product that will go live, since we've already produced it
We'll probably get these all posted sometime next week, as soon as we have all the files and media in hand and verified.
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Mark Smith said:Justin Gatlin said:
I think if the FL team read the employee comments on the original thread about this sale, they would all understand the frustration much more.
I agree with you, Justin. I think that neither Bob nor Phil have read that thread. It gives the context for the frustration and suspicion we see in this thread. Users were uncertain of what was being offered and FL was giving no answers that were helpful. There was time. There were questions. There was uncertainty. It didn't just pop-up after the release. Yet no substantial answers were given
Bob and Phil (and others at FL) you should read the thread Justin references if you want to understand some of the strong feelings you are reading here.
Thanks, Justin and Mark. I will read this thread to better understand the history of what happened and how we can do better in the future.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
We'll probably get these all posted sometime next week, as soon as we have all the files and media in hand and verified.
That sounds great, I look forward to learning what the finalized Brittanica Noet will look like. Thanks Phil (and Bob) for helping to get this sorted out so quickly... I know several of us were anxious in our disappointment on release day, but you did get it looked at right away and I think in a very reasonable amount of time to figure out what went wrong and how to best fix it.
-Dan
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They lied to us. They lied worse then a politician taking a lying pill therefore I will never buy anymore Logos products.
Now if you will excuse me I'm going to purchase the Collectors edition!!! [:P]
P.S. Trying to inject some humor in an already tense thread in hopes to calm some people down!
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James Hiddle said:
P.S. Trying to inject some humor in an already tense thread in hopes to calm some people down!
I am listening to Queen's Sheer Heart Attack album to relax. I can say it works well.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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After reading your first sentence my forehead (of its own volition) smashed its self down upon my desk.James Hiddle said:They lied to us. They lied worse then a politician taking a lying pill therefore I will never buy anymore Logos products.
Now if you will excuse me I'm going to purchase the Collectors edition!!!
P.S. Trying to inject some humor in an already tense thread in hopes to calm some people down!
The second sentence and the third made me chuckle though.
Collectors edition is nice looking. I was drooling over that the other day. BUT I think its going to remain outside my reach shy of divine intervention. Perhaps when 7 comes out - maybe then there will be a super mega deluxe hoarders (and I mean that in the best possible way) edition that I can shamelessly buy...L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
I'll see what we can do.
Thanks Phil !
Thank you again for taking time to answer my questions!
Thanks Bob for offering explanation details. It is always encouraging to hear from the Boss of Logos!
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Thanks for the freebie! We love freebies!
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Bob Pritchett said:Greg F said:
Really? I was expecting something somewhat more apologetic than self-congratulatory.
I am very sorry we disappointed you. We clearly didn't pay enough attention to this large and important project.
I am constantly amazed at your grace when many—most?—would give such comments the response they deserve.
Thankfully, Christ Jesus does not offer us what we actually deserve.
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Indeed.Jack Caviness said:Thankfully, Christ Jesus does not offer us what we actually deserve.
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Bob Pritchett said:
We don't get 'the wrong content' because there's only one 'content' in existence for a title.
Dear Bob,
Since you made the above assertion, I'd like to take this opportunity to hijack this thread and talk about another resource which has "wrong content".
Over the course of the past 5+ years I have, at various times, called, emailed, posted, and even discussed with FaithLife employees about how the 1545 Luther Bible you are selling is not the 1545 Luther Bible. Here is an example of one such thread:
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/96447/664460.aspx#664460
This is why I have not purchased this Bible from you. You have the wrong content. Please correct this resource and I will purchase it from you (and also please include the footnotes). If you want a database of the real 1545 Bible, check out www.lutherbibel.net or mybible.de.
Thank you and God bless,
Michael
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Michael Sullivan said:
Since you made the above assertion, I'd like to take this opportunity to hijack this thread and talk about another resource which has "wrong content".
Michael, thanks for pointing this out as it is important but I would suggest that you either start another thread or send an email directly to Logos so this won't get lost here.
Edit: Well, I spoke too soon and the boss already answered. That was fast! [Y]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Michael Sullivan said:
I'd like to take this opportunity to hijack this thread and talk about another resource which has "wrong content".
I'm having our team take another look.
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Thank you very much. I would really like to have this resource in Logos.
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Wanted to mention that I received a very nice e-mail this afternoon from FaithLife explaining the whole thing about customers being disappointed and what they are doing in response ... what Phil said earlier in this thread. It was thoughtful that they would take the time out in the midst of an apparent unhappy situation to send an explanation.
Very thoughtful ... [:)]
Continuing to keep everyone at FaithLife in my prayers.
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If anyone thinks it was a scam, he must not have done business with Logos very long. They are people of integrity, and are making it right. It is impossible to never make a mistake. It is very Christian to take responsibility and make it right. That is what Bob and Logos / Faithlife are doing. It is what I expected them to do from long experience as a Logos customer.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
If anyone thinks it was a scam, he must not have done business with Logos very long. They are people of integrity, and are making it right. It is impossible to never make a mistake. It is very Christian to take responsibility and make it right. That is what Bob and Logos / Faithlife are doing. It is what I expected them to do from long experience as a Logos customer.
Exactly and a bait and switch "scam" doesn't end up with you owning both products. This was a set of errors that has been resolved (again a "scam" does not involve refunds or gifts of secondary products). It is understandable for people to be upset that they received the wrong product. But a bit of understanding and a little less judgement would be nice.
-Dan
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Let me compare responses to three recent purchases from large, well-known companies when there were problems with services and products.
1. Company sent product to store for local pickup. Somehow, the item was "lost." Received email that I will be refunded. No other suggestions or offers.
2. Ordered from manufacturer's web site. Product died with only minimum usage. Telephone support could not fix so they offered a refund if I returned it. Got refund for purchase price but not the 25% price for shipment.
3. Another purchase died within a month. Company offered refund and paid for return.
In comparison, FL's offer is much better.
I would also say that this incident is an excellent stress test. We learn more from failures than when things go right. What it illustrates is the integrity of the company and what they will do to correct major problems. It also illustrates the value of the whole vendor-customer ecosystem. The FL forums Are outstanding where there is great participation.
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Norman Low said:
I would also say that this incident is an excellent stress test. We learn more from failures than when things go right. What it illustrates is the integrity of the company and what they will do to correct major problems. It also illustrates the value of the whole vendor-customer ecosystem. The FL forums Are outstanding where there is great participation.
[*][Y][:)]
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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Norman Low said:
I would also say that this incident is an excellent stress test. We learn more from failures than when things go right. What it illustrates is the integrity of the company and what they will do to correct major problems. It also illustrates the value of the whole vendor-customer ecosystem. The FL forums Are outstanding where there is great participation.
I could not agree more regarding the attitude of companies where things go wrong.
The character of we customers is stress tested with our willingness to believe the best or the worst of the company when things go wrong. If I start believing the worst it will make me wound up, bitter and twisted inside which will likely have a knock-on effect on my health which I really can't afford at my time of life.
I am now wishing that I had got on board at the earlier lower rate!!
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.. did I mention the really nice e-mail from FL explaining the whole thing and the response/action they are taking ...
Possibly lost in the whole discussion here.
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I am not sure if anything will calm this tempest in a teapot, but lets look at our free encyclopedia entry on Camus and see yes it is brief but it a good starting point... and then look at the britannica entry...
- EBNE aka Britannica kids/Compton's Family
Camus, Albert
(1913–60). Living in a world overwhelmed by wars and political upheaval, Albert Camus believed that traditional human values must survive. While his novels, essays, and plays reflect an indifferent, meaningless universe, Camus argued the need to rebel against this absurdity—to defend such values as truth and justice.
Albert Camus was born on Nov. 7, 1913, in Mondovi, Algeria. Less than a year later, his father was killed in World War I. Camus studied philosophy at the University of Algeria, but his work was cut short by an attack of tuberculosis. His first published works, collections of essays, describe his life in Algeria. Both collections contrast the fragile mortality of human beings with the enduring nature of the physical world. He wrote and acted for the Workers’ Theatre, which aimed to bring outstanding plays to working-class audiences, and he worked as a journalist for the newspaper Alger-Républicain.
At the outbreak of World War II, Camus went to France, where he joined the Resistance movement and edited the Resistance newspaper Combat. His first novel, L’Étranger (The Stranger), and an essay, Le Mythe de Sisyphe (The Myth of Sisyphus), were published in French in 1942. His second novel, La Peste (1947; The Plague), is a symbolic account of the fight against an epidemic by characters who, while aware that their efforts are in vain, work on to try to ease the suffering of their fellow citizens.
Camus received the Nobel prize for literature in 1957. On Jan. 4, 1960, he was killed in an automobile accident near Sens, France. An unfinished manuscript of an autobiographical novel recovered from the accident wreckage was published posthumously in 1994 as Le Premier Homme (The First Man).
“Camus, Albert,” Encyclopedia Britannica Noet Edition (Chicago, IL: Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2015).- Britannica Entry
Albert Camus, (born November 7, 1913, Mondovi, Algeria—died January 4, 1960, near Sens, France), French novelist, essayist, and playwright, best known for such novels as L’Étranger (1942; The Stranger), La Peste (1947; The Plague), and La Chute (1956; The Fall) and for his work in leftist causes. He received the 1957 Nobel Prize for Literature.
Early years
Less than a year after Camus was born, his father, an impoverished worker, was killed in World War I during the First Battle of the Marne. His mother, of Spanish descent, did housework to support her family. Camus and his elder brother Lucien moved with their mother to a working-class district of Algiers, where all three lived, together with the maternal grandmother and a paralyzed uncle, in a two-room apartment. Camus’s first published collection of essays, L’Envers et l’endroit (1937; “The Wrong Side and the Right Side”), describes the physical setting of these early years and includes portraits of his mother, grandmother, and uncle. A second collection of essays, Noces (1938; “Nuptials”), contains intensely lyrical meditations on the Algerian countryside and presents natural beauty as a form of wealth that even the very poor can enjoy. Both collections contrast the fragile mortality of human beings with the enduring nature of the physical world.In 1918 Camus entered primary school and was fortunate enough to be taught by an outstanding teacher, Louis Germain, who helped him to win a scholarship to the Algiers lycée (high school) in 1923. (It was typical of Camus’s sense of loyalty that 34 years later his speech accepting the Nobel Prize for Literature was dedicated to Germain.) A period of intellectual awakening followed, accompanied by great enthusiasm for sport, especially football (soccer), swimming, and boxing. In 1930, however, the first of several severe attacks of tuberculosis put an end to his sporting career and interrupted his studies. Camus had to leave the unhealthy apartment that had been his home for 15 years, and, after a short period spent with an uncle, Camus decided to live on his own, supporting himself by a variety of jobs while registered as a philosophy student at the University of Algiers.
At the university, Camus was particularly influenced by one of his teachers, Jean Grenier, who helped him to develop his literary and philosophical ideas and shared his enthusiasm for football. He obtained a diplôme d’études supérieures in 1936 for a thesis on the relationship between Greek and Christian thought in the philosophical writings of Plotinus and St. Augustine. His candidature for the agrégation (a qualification that would have enabled him to take up a university career) was cut short by another attack of tuberculosis. To regain his health he went to a resort in the French Alps—his first visit to Europe—and eventually returned to Algiers via Florence, Pisa, and Genoa.
Camus’s literary career
Throughout the 1930s, Camus broadened his interests. He read the French classics as well as the writers of the day—among them André Gide, Henry de Montherlant, André Malraux—and was a prominent figure among the young left-wing intellectuals of Algiers. For a short period in 1934–35 he was also a member of the Algerian Communist Party. In addition, he wrote, produced, adapted, and acted for the Théâtre du Travail (Workers’ Theatre, later named the Théâtre de l’Équipe), which aimed to bring outstanding plays to working-class audiences. He maintained a deep love of the theatre until his death. Ironically, his plays are the least-admired part of his literary output, although Le Malentendu (Cross Purpose) and Caligula, first produced in 1944 and 1945, respectively, remain landmarks in the Theatre of the Absurd. Two of his most enduring contributions to the theatre may well be his stage adaptations of William Faulkner’s Requiem for a Nun (Requiem pour une nonne; 1956) and Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s The Possessed (Les Possédés; 1959).In the two years before the outbreak of World War II, Camus served his apprenticeship as a journalist with Alger-Républicain in many capacities, including those of leader- (editorial-) writer, subeditor, political reporter, and book reviewer. He reviewed some of Jean-Paul Sartre’s early literary works and wrote an important series of articles analyzing social conditions among the Muslims of the Kabylie region. These articles, reprinted in abridged form in Actuelles III (1958), drew attention (15 years in advance) to many of the injustices that led to the outbreak of the Algerian War in 1954. Camus took his stand on humanitarian rather than ideological grounds and continued to see a future role for France in Algeria while not ignoring colonialist injustices.
He enjoyed the most influence as a journalist during the final years of the occupation of France and the immediate post-Liberation period. As editor of the Parisian daily Combat, the successor of a Resistance newssheet run largely by Camus, he held an independent left-wing position based on the ideals of justice and truth and the belief that all political action must have a solid moral basis. Later, the old-style expediency of both Left and Right brought increasing disillusion, and in 1947 he severed his connection with Combat.
By now Camus had become a leading literary figure. L’Étranger (U.S. title, The Stranger; British title, The Outsider), a brilliant first novel begun before the war and published in 1942, is a study of 20th-century alienation with a portrait of an “outsider” condemned to death less for shooting an Arab than for the fact that he never says more than he genuinely feels and refuses to conform to society’s demands. The same year saw the publication of an influential philosophical essay, Le Mythe de Sisyphe (The Myth of Sisyphus), in which Camus, with considerable sympathy, analyzed contemporary nihilism and a sense of the “absurd.” He was already seeking a way of overcoming nihilism, and his second novel, La Peste (1947; The Plague), is a symbolical account of the fight against an epidemic in Oran by characters whose importance lies less in the (doubtful) success with which they oppose the epidemic than in their determined assertion of human dignity and fraternity. Camus had now moved from his first main concept of the absurd to his other major idea of moral and metaphysical “rebellion.” He contrasted this latter ideal with politico-historical revolution in a second long essay, L’Homme révolté (1951; The Rebel), which provoked bitter antagonism among Marxist critics and such near-Marxist theoreticians as Jean-Paul Sartre. His other major literary works are the technically brilliant novel La Chute (1956) and a collection of short stories, L’Exil et le royaume (1957; Exile and the Kingdom). La Chute reveals a preoccupation with Christian symbolism and contains an ironical and witty exposure of the more complacent forms of secular humanist morality.
In 1957, at the early age of 44, Camus received the Nobel Prize for Literature. With characteristic modesty he declared that had he been a member of the awarding committee his vote would certainly have gone to André Malraux. Less than three years later he was killed in an automobile accident.
Assessment
As novelist and playwright, moralist and political theorist, Albert Camus after World War II became the spokesman of his own generation and the mentor of the next, not only in France but also in Europe and eventually the world. His writings, which addressed themselves mainly to the isolation of man in an alien universe, the estrangement of the individual from himself, the problem of evil, and the pressing finality of death, accurately reflected the alienation and disillusionment of the postwar intellectual. He is remembered, with Sartre, as a leading practitioner of the existential novel. Though he understood the nihilism of many of his contemporaries, Camus also argued the necessity of defending such values as truth, moderation, and justice. In his last works he sketched the outlines of a liberal humanism that rejected the dogmatic aspects of both Christianity and Marxism.John Cruickshank
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I share these to show while EBNE is not EB, it is very possible that they did not realize the mistake till after the release. The article I shared to me seems complete enough to give the impression, "oh this article is just a little short". It is very possible that the articles that were viewed were just in depth enough not to raise red flags in their minds.
This has been speedily and splendidly dealt with by Faithlife's staff. A mistake this big is unfortunate but the explanation lead to how it happened. Please people take you refund or wait for the true EBNE to get released in a few weeks. But what seems wrong to me in the extreme is to refuse to accept a reasonable solutions and casting slings and arrows that seem unfounded when you step back to look at this error.
-Dan
PS: If you go back far enough in this thread you can see I was quite upset with the quality of the product we got, but I always knew a full refund was the worse case scenario. And I was more upset that this would do major damage to the Noet brand but after learning it was what seemed to be an honest mistake and it was speedily dealt with I hope that the Noet users will be able to see that.
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I admit that I was disappointed with the product, but your offer is MORE than fair. Thank you for caring enough to make it right. I appreciate how you value integrity.
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Dan Francis said:Michael Childs said:
If anyone thinks it was a scam, he must not have done business with Logos very long. They are people of integrity, and are making it right. It is impossible to never make a mistake. It is very Christian to take responsibility and make it right. That is what Bob and Logos / Faithlife are doing. It is what I expected them to do from long experience as a Logos customer.
Exactly and a bait and switch "scam" doesn't end up with you owning both products. This was a set of errors that has been resolved (again a "scam" does not involve refunds or gifts of secondary products). It is understandable for people to be upset that they received the wrong product. But a bit of understanding and a little less judgement would be nice.
-Dan
I was with you right with you up until I saw this, which had to be already in the works:
Great Books of the Western World (60 vols.)
by 130 authors
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