Quality Control: Missing Images and Diagrams in John Frame's "A History of Western Philosophy"

I'd like to draw the attention of Faithlife employees and any interested users to a discussion on the product page for John Frame's recently published A History of Western Philosophy. This page states, "Due to copyright restrictions, we are unable to include images with this resource." As discussed in the reviews section, however, it apparently doesn't make sense why all images and diagrams should be excluded from this resource by P&R Publishing or any other potential copyright holders. Josh Skinner apparently spoke with a "P&R rep" who "said that only 5 images were copyright issue. All diagrams should be included." I would be appreciative if Faithlife would seek to clarify and resolve any copyright issues and would then update A History of Western Philosophy with as many images and diagrams as they can so that it meets the standards of a "high quality" Logos edition. Frame's book, otherwise, looks like it'd be a great fit for Logos/Noet!

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David O'Dowd

As one who has already purchased this Frame volume I would ask that all non-copyright-issue images and diagrams be added to a book update as quickly as possible. To do so certainly would be in accord with Logos/Faithlife's high standards.

Josh Skinner

When I exchanged emails with customer service, the rep was unapologetic and seemed rather apathetic (including customer service ignoring follow up emails). The solution offered was to like it without images or cancel my prepub. So I cancelled mine.

Hopefully you can get farther than I did. This is a great book and would be a perfect resources in Logos format.

Myke Harbuck

I'd like to draw the attention of Faithlife employees and any interested users to a discussion on the product page for John Frame's recently published A History of Western Philosophy. This page states, "Due to copyright restrictions, we are unable to include images with this resource." As discussed in the reviews section, however, it apparently doesn't make sense why all images and diagrams should be excluded from this resource by P&R Publishing or any other potential copyright holders. Josh Skinner apparently spoke with a "P&R rep" who "said that only 5 images were copyright issue. All diagrams should be included." I would be appreciative if Faithlife would seek to clarify and resolve any copyright issues and would then update A History of Western Philosophy with as many images and diagrams as they can so that it meets the standards of a "high quality" Logos edition. Frame's book, otherwise, looks like it'd be a great fit for Logos/Noet!

Couldnt agree more, Decided against purchasing it when I discovered the diagrams were missing. Pictures are not that important to me, but charts and diagrams aide tremendously in comprehension, esp on a volume this deep and wide.

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/792343#Comment_792343

Thanks for your input, David, Josh, and Myke. I think it's good for Faithlife to hear from customers interested in this particular resource and perhaps even the quality of "Logos editions" in general. I'll probably wait a bit longer to hear from Faithlife before deciding whether or not to return my purchase.

Interestingly, using Amazon's "Look Inside" feature and comparing the table of contents to the print edition (pp. xi–xii), it appears that Faithlife excised the "Illustration Credits" (pp. 831–838/9?) from the back matter and the table of contents. Could anyone with a print copy confirm whether this is the case? I would rather Faithlife accurately represent the content that's there (e.g., text) than excise it all, even if there happen to be copyright limitations on several images. I hope that such editorial liberty in "Logos editions" is the exception, not the norm!

Robert Harner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/792550#Comment_792550

"Illustration Credits" (pp. 831–838/9?) from the back matter and the table of contents. Could anyone with a print copy confirm whether this is the case?

They are on pp 831-838. P 831 lists "the eleven types of licenses involved," the majority from Wikimedia Commons.

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/792591#Comment_792591

"Illustration Credits" (pp. 831–838/9?) from the back matter and the table of contents. Could anyone with a print copy confirm whether this is the case?

They are on pp 831-838. P 831 lists "the eleven types of licenses involved," the majority from Wikimedia Commons.

Thank you, Robert. That's helpful. [Y]

Adam Olean

It's now after the holidays, so could we get some feedback from Faithlife employees on the images, diagrams, and "Illustration Credits" (pp. 831–838) that have been entirely excluded and/or excised from the "Logos edition" of John Frame's A History of Western Philosophy (as discussed in this thread and in the review section of the product page)? Are these things being looked into? Will they be addressed?

I would be grateful for any assistance you can offer.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/794664#Comment_794664

I've just sent a message to Faithlife to ask them to comment on this thread. I know that lots of the non-sales staff are still catching up after the Christmas/New Year break, but hopefully someone will get to this soon.

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/794670#Comment_794670

I've just sent a message to Faithlife to ask them to comment on this thread. I know that lots of the non-sales staff are still catching up after the Christmas/New Year break, but hopefully someone will get to this soon.

Thank you, Mark. I truly appreciate it! I assumed as much and am more than willing to patiently await a response. That said, I also wanted to make sure this thread doesn't disappear into forum oblivion.

Robert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/794664#Comment_794664

It's now after the holidays, so could we get some feedback from Faithlife employees on the images, diagrams, and "Illustration Credits" (pp. 831–838) that have been entirely excluded and/or excised from the "Logos edition" of John Frame's A History of Western Philosophy (as discussed in this thread and in the review section of the product page)? Are these things being looked into? Will they be addressed?

I would be grateful for any assistance you can offer.

Also agree (own Logos resource). Thanks Adam for asking; and thanks Mark, for your help as an MVP. For an obviously academic resource, the photos omitted are regrettable, but negotiable; but IMO for a resource that may be required reading in an academic setting, diagrams are an absolute given, a must. Thanks.

Grace and peace. <><

Kyle G. Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/794685#Comment_794685

We've now gotten feedback from P&R. We can begin the process of including the images. At this point it's too early to give an exact date that work will be done. I'm hopeful it will be with in a month.

Robert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795007#Comment_795007

Kyle, thanks for the update and for your efforts! Grace and peace. <><

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795007#Comment_795007

We can begin the process of including the images.

Great news!!! Thanks for the follow-up.

-Donnie

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795007#Comment_795007

We've now gotten feedback from P&R. We can begin the process of including the images. At this point it's too early to give an exact date that work will be done. I'm hopeful it will be with in a month.

Thanks, Kyle! I am looking forward to the update. I assume it will include the excised "Illustration Credits," as well.

Kyle G. Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795205#Comment_795205

We've now gotten feedback from P&R. We can begin the process of including the images. At this point it's too early to give an exact date that work will be done. I'm hopeful it will be with in a month.

Thanks, Kyle! I am looking forward to the update. I assume it will include the excised "Illustration Credits," as well.

Now that there are illustrations to credit it will most certainly be included.

David O'Dowd

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795500#Comment_795500

Kyle, I want to add my thanks for pushing this issue through so quickly. Great responsiveness! I am most appreciative and look forward to the update.

Josh Skinner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795500#Comment_795500

Thanks Kyle. I wish customer service would have said that this was an option instead of essentially telling me to like it without images or cancel my prepub. I definitely would have been fine waiting for a resource update.

I am very grateful that you guys have made this resource much better for those that got it! Thanks again.

Josh

James McAdams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/796812#Comment_796812

It's the only thing that stopped me from going for the prepub too. I bought it this morning, having spotted this thread.

Titus Buita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/796817#Comment_796817

Any updates on the illustrations issue? I'm debating between purchasing this in print or an electronic copy on Logos. Thanks!

Kyle G. Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/803936#Comment_803936

I apologize for the delay on this one. I also apologize for being over-zealous in my estimate on when it would be updated. There are other projects ahead of this in line and we're looking at finishing it by April.

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/795500#Comment_795500

We've now gotten feedback from P&R. We can begin the process of including the images. At this point it's too early to give an exact date that work will be done. I'm hopeful it will be with in a month.

Thanks, Kyle! I am looking forward to the update. I assume it will include the excised "Illustration Credits," as well.

Now that there are illustrations to credit it will most certainly be included.

Kyle, I know it's been a while since the creation of this thread. I just wanted to add, however—in case you or any of your fellow Faithlife colleagues see this—that in the future, I would expect Logos to include "Illustration Credits" and accurately represent the actual text, table of contents, and general content of a book regardless of copyright restrictions on some or all its images. Even without the images, some users might actually want to track down references in their research and reading. They might want to know what's missing, so they can look it up. Moreover, they might assume that the table of contents in their "Logos Edition" actually reflects the table of contents in the print edition. How am I and other users supposed to know that Faithlife employees decided that a heading in the table of contents or the book was superfluous and, thus, excised it? As I stated above, "I would rather Faithlife accurately represent the content that's there (e.g., [the] text) [rather] than excise it [altogether] [i.e., the text this is not restricted together with the images that are restricted], even if there happen to be copyright limitations on several images. I hope that such editorial liberty in 'Logos editions' is the exception, not the norm!"

It really raises questions about just how reliable "Logos editions" actually are when the content of the text can be unnecessarily excised from the table of contents and back matter as it was in this resource. So, rather than you saying, "Now that there are illustrations to credit it will most certainly be included." I would rather hear you say, "It should have been, and will now be, included regardless of their being illustrations to credit." Please take this as constructive criticism. I hope it helps to keep in mind the perspective of those who may be using Logos for reading and research. The text and table of contents need to accurately represent the actual content that's in the book (copyright issues permitting, of course).

Thanks again for taking care of the missing images and diagrams in John Frame's A History of Western Philosophy. I'm looking forward to the update. It's these kind of books that suit the Logos/Noet platform so well! I really appreciate the excellent work that you all you do. [Y]

George Simopoulos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/803959#Comment_803959

Hi Kyle,

I've ceased reading this book, expecting the images to come in relatively soon. I was just wondering what the ETA is now. Thanks

Kyle G. Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/822881#Comment_822881

Hi Kyle,

I've ceased reading this book, expecting the images to come in relatively soon. I was just wondering what the ETA is now. Thanks

The updated version with diagrams and images is being pushed out on Tuesday.

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/822981#Comment_822981

Hi Kyle,

I've ceased reading this book, expecting the images to come in relatively soon. I was just wondering what the ETA is now. Thanks

The updated version with diagrams and images is being pushed out on Tuesday.

Thanks for the update, Kyle! It may a good time to tackle this book for those of us who haven't yet. [Y]

Michael McLane

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/823389#Comment_823389

I am assuming that is next Tuesday, the 31st?

Liam

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/823396#Comment_823396

Anyone know whether the images have been added by Logos yet? Im considering this one soon. I'd also be interested in more detail given in which pictures are not included. how many images are cut out? What types of images are they? How will their absence affect my reading of this book?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847281#Comment_847281

Anyone know whether the images have been added by Logos yet? Im considering this one soon. I'd also be interested in more detail given in which pictures are not included. how many images are cut out? What types of images are they? How will their absence affect my reading of this book?

The images have been added back in. If there are still a few missing, I haven't noticed (but I don't have a print book to compare)

Kyle G. Anderson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/847297#Comment_847297

I contacted our marketing team to have the product page updated to remove the callout.

Adam Olean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/822981#Comment_822981

Hi Kyle,

I've ceased reading this book, expecting the images to come in relatively soon. I was just wondering what the ETA is now. Thanks

The updated version with diagrams and images is being pushed out on Tuesday.

Hi Kyle,

It appears that there is one small problem left to resolve. If you look at the "Contents" section of this book, it does not does not include the "Illustration Credits" (as mentioned earlier in this thread and illustrated below). Otherwise, the update has been a very welcome improvement, indeed!