Personnel changes at Faithlife
Comments
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Bruce Dunning said:Mark Barnes said:
If Faithlife is changing its discount policy so that the price shown online is the best price you can get (which I suspect we all think should be the case), then the need for a large sales staff is much reduced.
Agreed. I too feel bad for those who have been let go but personally I don't like it when I have to call someone to get a better price than is listed on line. In my opinion the price listed should be the best price.
Very much agreed. Some people get the best deal and others don't. This always is a disappointment for me. Please FL change this. Offer your best prices online. Thanks.
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Thank you, Bob, for once again communicating clearly with all of us. Please allow me to add my name to the chorus of those who agree that having the best prices on the internet is long overdue in today's world. The sales team for FaithLife should be available to answer questions, give advice regarding purchase/value decisions, and otherwise help facilitate purchases. There should never be "secret" prices available only to those who talk to a sales rep. Now that the website displays what is "new to me" with any upgrade or purchase of a bundle, I very much prefer to examine the information myself online and make my own decisions about value to me. Once I have made the decision to purchase something, it is really an inconvenience to have to contact sales "just in case" I could get a further discount by asking.
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I found this:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Faithlife-RVW5973227.htm
It broke my heart
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Hmmm - how long did it take you to find it? If you start at "most recent"
I've never worked there but know that they regularly get "best places to work" awards and know from being an IT manager that IT makes herding cats look easy - you want creative, independent thinkers to work as a team ... and IT employees are not noted for people-skills or conventional behavior. So why are you deliberately pointing out discord where discord is to be expected ... and where the overall picture is not bleak why do you select and publicize the disgruntled?
So let's provide another piece of selective feedback that breaks my heart ... and notice how recent it is.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Wow! "Smoking Gun?" Regardless, truth in all its forms can endure close examination.
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David Roberts said:
I found this:
https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Faithlife-RVW5973227.htm
It broke my heart
...I do hope you read Bob's response to that.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Bruce Dunning said:
In my opinion the price listed should be the best price.
Absolutely. I have almost never used a sales rep, and the last time I tried, I was told that the web price was the best I could get.
Sorry to see people lose their job. Perhaps it shows that FL needs more realism in their plans for explosive growth.
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Mark Barnes said:
I do hope you read Bob's response to that.
Yes, and I appreciate that, it's just sometimes the truth lies in the middle of two positions, and until today I had a good impression of the Logos team, but all this calls into question some things. Regardless, even if there were/are some bad eggs, I know there are many really awesome people working at Logos. It's just a bit like when people find out their favourite celebrity isn't exactly like you dreamed, you see I deeply truly believe in the mission of Logos and how it can nurture the body of Christ. And when you believe in it's potential and mission as much as I do, you can become nostalgic and view the team as angels. Yes, it's true, I'm infatuated with team Logos.
But all this has brought me back to the ground, a place we call reality.0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Hmmm - how long did it take you to find it? If you start at "most recent"
I found the link precisely at that location from a comment at the bottom of a news article on the layoffs. But rest assured I don't take negative comments against Logos as the gospel truth, but there is some hearing out I afford them.
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Every story has two sides.... and every person also has a right to a private life... Now the accusation if completely true would be damning and show lack of integrity. But as Bob explained it, it seemed harmless venting in poor taste. Some people like fart jokes some of us find them vulgar and in poor taste. But if an employee in his own sphere wishes to tell them, he shouldn't be penalized for bad taste. In common business policy the customer is always right, but what the customer expects can often be unreasonable. I want better offline capability for the mobile apps. I have been vocal about it, I know one developer who is frustrated at my repeated mentioning of it. Would it bother me if I heard he tweeted something nasty about me in venting to friends. Not really, even if he went off on what personally would feel a not ok attack on my sexuality, again his personal time and private account.
-Dan
PS: I am in no way trying to accuse said person of any involvement in this alleged matter, just using him and myself. Knowing I could well be an example of someone who might frustrate someone enough to need to vent.
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MJ. Smith said:
"Some customers, especially pastors and those involved in ministry, can be extremely rude/condescending." That I can well believe, having seen it often enough right here. It was very disconcerting when I first started frequenting the forums but now it's just par for the course, which is sad.
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Hmmmm, let's compare ... human sales force v. online sales:
does exactly what it is instructed, without error winner: online sales
works long hours, never late for work winner: online sales
one time training cost with minimal ongoing maintenance costs winner: online sales
no salary winner: online sales
no health insurance costs per the [anything but] Affordable Care Act winner: online sales
no 401k costs winner: online sales
no cappuccino, pop, &etc. costs winner: online sales
no whining [incl. via Glassdoor] winner: online sales
no paid vacation, no holidays, no personal days off winner: online sales
no misc. HR overhead costs winner: online sales
From a human perspective it's a brutal assessment, yet, survival is priority no. 1 for any business. And if significant revenues can be saved and used to boost the viability of a small company ... well, it is only a matter of time until even the most kind-hearted, Christian employer will be forced to switch from flesh and blood to bits and bytes. We had to say goodbye to buggy whips, elevator operators, carbon paper, slide rules, paper telephone books, and so forth, too. My guess is, for the foreseeable future, there will always be one or two, maybe a few, sales people standing by, ready to take your call. However, like it or not, the world moves on.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Thank you for your reply Dan.
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JRS said:
From a human perspective it's a brutal assessment, yet, survival is priority no. 1 for any business. And if significant revenues can be saved and used to boost the viability of a small company ... well, it is only a matter of time until even the most kind-hearted, Christian employer will be forced to switch from flesh and blood to bits and bytes. We had to say goodbye to buggy whips, elevator operators, carbon paper, slide rules, paper telephone books, and so forth, too. My guess is, for the foreseeable future, there will always be one or two, maybe a few, sales people standing by, ready to take your call. However, like it or not, the world moves on.
I would agree if the Sales team are only order-takers; however, if they explain the products, facilitate the customer getting to a purchase decision, etc., then they add a value that is sometimes difficult to deliver with online sales alone. Unfortunately, I did not see much of that from my Logos sales encounters – maybe I had the wrong sales representatives.
Nevertheless, just moving to online sales doesn't instantly generate sales. There needs to be an increase in marketing programs to attract, educate, and convince shoppers to buy. Faithlife's new 30 day training series is an good example – they are showing new resources through actual usage. I have already bought new resources because of this video series. Faithlife will need to continue to create these programs and that costs money, too.
Just my humble opinion.
Agape,
Steve
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Stephen Terlizzi said:JRS said:
From a human perspective it's a brutal assessment, yet, survival is priority no. 1 for any business. And if significant revenues can be saved and used to boost the viability of a small company ... well, it is only a matter of time until even the most kind-hearted, Christian employer will be forced to switch from flesh and blood to bits and bytes. We had to say goodbye to buggy whips, elevator operators, carbon paper, slide rules, paper telephone books, and so forth, too. My guess is, for the foreseeable future, there will always be one or two, maybe a few, sales people standing by, ready to take your call. However, like it or not, the world moves on.
I would agree if the Sales team are only order-takers; however, if they explain the products, facilitate the customer getting to a purchase decision, etc., then they add a value that is sometimes difficult to deliver with online sales alone. Unfortunately, I did not see much of that from my Logos sales encounters – maybe I had the wrong sales representatives.
Nevertheless, just moving to online sales doesn't instantly generate sales. There needs to be an increase in marketing programs to attract, educate, and convince shoppers to buy. Faithlife's new 30 day training series is an good example – they are showing new resources through actual usage. I have already bought new resources because of this video series. Faithlife will need to continue to create these programs and that costs money, too.
Just my humble opinion.
Agape,
Steve
👍 It's time for FL to make changes. Please again remove the current method. Whatever sales you have make it online like Amazon. Thank you!
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Stephen Terlizzi said:
Nevertheless, just moving to online sales doesn't instantly generate sales. There needs to be an increase in marketing programs to attract, educate, and convince shoppers to buy. Faith life's new 30 day training series is an good example – they are showing new resources through actual usage...Faithlife will need to continue to create these programs and that costs money, too. Just my humble opinion.
You may be on to something. Products will drive sales. Faithlife needs to focus and speed up contracting and digitalizing the millions of religious books (old and new) from around the world to Logos customers, waiting to snap them up. Newcomers will be added, small libraries will become big, large libraries will become bigger.
While they are at it, they should consider creating new bundles and repackaging some current packages. They should, even, consider having a Customer’s Cafeteria Package (I think I can come up with some guidelines, if Bob is interested). It could be an annual sale or something fixed.
Faithlife is in the season of change. Why not change for the good of all (Faithlife/Logos customers) and the better (variety/choice)? Faithlife wants to generate funds? Books, books, books, and millions of books!
Trust me Bob, “there is gold, in them” books.
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"Some customers, especially pastors and those involved in ministry, can be extremely rude/condescending." That I can well believe, having seen it often enough right here. It was very disconcerting when I first started frequenting the forums but now it's just par for the course, which is sad.
MJ,
"Pastors and those involved in ministry" are like any other people without the influencing power of the Word. Many people with holy titles have displayed very unholy behaviors far beyond being "rude/condescending." Vast sums of monies paid out and jailed clergymen in the "Freedom loving" USA, because too many have not been transformed (Romans 12:1-2) by the very Word (Bible) that they handled. Be not dismay, there is still hope for change and them. Let's pray that the Christians, working around or with the people mentioned above, will be "living" Epistles (2 Cor 3:2-6).
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David Ames said:
Under the current model this cannot work... for millions of books to added millions upon millions of users have to pre order them before faithlife will even consider digitizing them. I have asked in the past if the concept of PrePub in someways might be a broken system. I look at the Paulist Press Classics of Western Spirituality Bundle (126 vols.) this set has new and good translations of almost every significant spiritual classic. Everyone of these books should be available in FL library and I am positive at least half of them would be very big sellers. Trouble is this collection is so big and expensive and in no way available quickly to offer promise but cause people to go off and find it elsewhere. Obviously FL cannot simply release every book available, but at times I wonder if they might shoot themselves in the foot a bit by this system.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
Trouble is this collection is so big and expensive and in no way available quickly to offer promise but cause people to go off and find it elsewhere.
Significantly smaller parts of that collection are also available on Pre-Pub, and none of them are doing too well.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:
Significantly smaller parts of that collection are also available on Pre-Pub, and none of them are doing too well.
Very true and perhaps i perhaps value these spiritual masters more than most. I just think it is ashame that most of the works i want to buy in Logos are not yet available.
-Dan
PS:I say that now but at the same time I could not afford the package if it was released soon...
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Dan Francis said:
Obviously FL cannot simply release every book available, but at times I wonder if they might shoot themselves in the foot a bit by this system.
They could remove an obvious bullet if only they could come to an agreement with Moody. I'm sure there would be a significant level of sales if and when they did.
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David Carter said:
They could remove an obvious bullet if only they could come to an agreement with Moody. I'm sure there would be a significant level of sales if and when they did.
From my understanding it was such an acrimonious break I wouldn't expect it anytime soon...
-Dan
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I see this thread has veered off course from the title.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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MJ. Smith said:Bruce Dunning said:
That's an interesting thought. It makes me wonder what percentage of Logos uses are forum users.
Forum Activity: 186,437 users have contributed to 101,098 threads and 769,461 posts.
IIRC a couple of years or more ago we were told there were > 1 million users.
My case may be unusual, but I likely have half a dozen forgotten former ID's as I sniffed at Logos on and off for quite a few years before the hook finally set.
With great respect and concern for those laid off, positive changes often comes when we are motivated by events such as layoffs. That has happened to me, anyway. God is in control and will take care of His children.
To be candid, my personal experience with sales was never positive. I only used sales assistance a few times and my experiences were like this:
1. Just got an ordinary deal, same as online. No benefit.
2. I got misleading help from a person who knew less than I did about a some products and insisted they were right. Details aside, they were quite wrong, which was verified after I made the purchase on my own without so much "help."
3. I was offered a good deal--better than online. My sales person for reasons perhaps related or unrelated was let go before the sales was even completed. Another person came alone and tried to undo the deal. I dug my heels in a bit since the salesman's offer was already committed by email. l got the deal I was offered but never felt good about it for myself or Logos or the salesperson.
4. Excessive pressure and sort of mustard yellow plaid panted used car sales feel techniques. I wanted advice on putting together overlapping resource packages, figuring out actual prices, not all that other hype and nonsense. (I canceled the sale in 2 cases and figured out on my own).
All my experiences fit those categories. Of course not only phone sales staff were laid off. Yet, as wonderful as some of the sales staff were, maybe everyone would have a better experience with some changes. I will likely not bother with sales staff any time soon, but stick with my own figures online. Maybe someone can offer better experiences. I am grateful for the great reviews of some former staff.
I have a lot of confidence in Logos, appreciate Bob's statements and don't feel the worries some express.
Peace.
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Super.Tramp said:
I see this thread has veered off course from the title.
Back to the purity of the thread:
Given that a lot of the "big" salaried workers were let go, could some of them be replaced with younger or part time workers without the pressure and quotas?
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SineNomine said:
Significantly smaller parts of that collection are also available on Pre-Pub, and none of them are doing too well.
Is it possible for us to discuss this collection elsewhere finding it possibly that it lacks quality, to explain why it's not doing well?
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Charles McNeil said:
finding it possibly that it lacks quality,
I was a subscriber to the series from the first volume to 80-something when I became to busy to read them. I assure you that quality is not the issue. I suspect that it is the makeup of the user base as the original target market has little overlap with Logos.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Charles McNeil said:SineNomine said:
Significantly smaller parts of that collection are also available on Pre-Pub, and none of them are doing too well.
Is it possible for us to discuss this collection elsewhere....
Yes.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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It is sad to hear that such a large percentage of the Logos staff has been laid off (about 16%). It signals a dramatic shift in their business model. I sense that the web will now be their primary transactional vehicle. As I did not place orders through their sales force, this change will not impact me. Because of the obvious underlying financial downturn (probably fueled in part by their recent changes to the "buy now, pay later" policy), it is my hope the Logos will pay more attention to the voice of the customer and focus on their core product rather than going off in so many directions. And they really need to improve and expand the functionality of Biblia (web) for their primary user base.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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