How Will Logos/Faithlife Handle This?
Comments
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Matthew said:Kevin Byford (Faithlife) said:
If you notice any Android app issues in the future please create a new post in the Android Apps forum (if you want the issue to get fixed). Thankfully someone pointed your post out to me; this thread is completely unrelated to the mobile apps and I would have missed it otherwise.
Will do. If the metadata itself is the problem, then would the issue not present itself on multiple platforms though, not just Android and iOS?
The desktop application finds both forms of the apostrophe when you search using the normal single quote. Presumably the mobile platforms are not correctly handling this.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Matthew said:Kevin Byford (Faithlife) said:
If you notice any Android app issues in the future please create a new post in the Android Apps forum (if you want the issue to get fixed). Thankfully someone pointed your post out to me; this thread is completely unrelated to the mobile apps and I would have missed it otherwise.
Will do. If the metadata itself is the problem, then would the issue not present itself on multiple platforms though, not just Android and iOS?
The metadata isn't the problem, it's just a bug in the Android apps. The issue doesn't occur on iOS.
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I heard that Accordance users will be able to keep the current issue and will be given a free upgrade if the new sets become available. I hope the same will happen to Logos! Or maybe it'd be better to get credits for those books...? I don't know!
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Everett Headley said:
How would Carson have known this? I think you reach unfairly.
I'm not sure I fully agree with you. There is software available to scan for plagiarism and I would expect publishers and editors to be using it. The editor of a work bears some responsibility for managing the copy-editor to ensure that the author's work is reasonably checked for such defects. O'Brien does bear the ultimate "fault", but this seems like a complete breakdown in the publishing system.
That said, I understand that nobody is perfect and I for one think all involved should be granted a great deal of grace on this. I would bet that nearly everyone has at one time or another inadvertently run afoul of proper source citation. Of course that is not an excuse, but I can see how this might happen. We have no reason to doubt O'Brien's word that this was not intentional. I value his commentaries and hope this can be easily fixed.
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I really couldn't care less to be honest. It's the word of God they're presenting. Many times people think the exact same phrase and write it down without knowing some other guy wrote it and "copyrighted" it first. I'm just glad I get to keep some fine commentaries that help me in my studies. Those who worry about it too much clearly have too much time in their hands!
DAL
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I read about this in a blog this morning and went straight here to see what people were saying. I'm surprised by how many people thought FL was going to pull these works from their library. I'm sure that goes against our license agreement.
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Hi all,
We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.
For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them. [:)]
Thank you!
Senior Director, Content Products
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Ben Amundgaard said:
Hi all,
We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.
For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them.
Thank you!
Thanks Ben, that's what I thought.
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Ben Amundgaard said:
Hi all,
We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.
For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them.
Thank you!
I'd be interesting in knowing whether Eerdmans intends to revise the O'Brien works or if they are just going to replace them with works by different authors down the road. I think that would help many people decide whether they want to keep them or not.
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The statement from Eerdman's found in the first post of this thread seems to indicate that they aren't interested in revising them:
Kenneth Neighoff said:August 15, 2016
At the beginning of July 2016, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. received allegations against one of its New Testament commentaries and immediately undertook a careful investigation. Eerdmans is now withdrawing that book and two others by the same author.
Eerdmans editors compared the text of The Letter to the Hebrews (Pillar New Testament Commentary, 2010) with various secondary sources and submitted findings to external experts for verification. Summing up the findings, Editor-in-chief James Ernest said, "Our own editors and our outside consultants agreed that what we found on the pages of this commentary runs afoul of commonly accepted standards with regard to the utilization and documentation of secondary sources. We agreed that the book could not be retained in print."
Examination of the same author's Letter to the Ephesians (PNTC, 1999) and Epistle to the Philippians (New International Greek Testament Commentary, 1991) found them less pervasively flawed but still untenable.
The author, Peter T. O'Brien, was presented with the findings and provided the following response: "In the New Testament commentaries that I have written, although I have never deliberately misused the work of others, nevertheless I now see that my work processes at times have been faulty and have generated clear-cut, but unintentional, plagiarism. For this I apologize without reservation."
President and publisher Anita Eerdmans summed up the company's stance as follows: "Eerdmans is steadfastly committed to the highest ethical standards in academic and business practice, and we apologize to all who are negatively affected by this situation. Our Bible commentary series, among the best of their kind, are authored and edited by the field's top scholars. The strong measures we are taking in this case are meant to underscore our firm belief that our commentary program is, and must remain, solid."
Eerdmans is taking the following steps:
● Ceasing sales and pulp stock of all three volumes, placing them out of print.
● Offering credit to individuals and trade partners who have purchased the above three volumes.
For detailed instructions on how to pursue this option, please write to commentarycredit@eerdmans.com.
● Discussing best practices for quality control with press editors, series editors, and authors.Members of the media wishing to contact Eerdmans may send e-mail to publicity@eerdmans.com.
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Levi Durfey said:
The statement from Eerdman's found in the first post of this thread seems to indicate that they aren't interested in revising them:
Kenneth Neighoff said:August 15, 2016
At the beginning of July 2016, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. received allegations against one of its New Testament commentaries and immediately undertook a careful investigation. Eerdmans is now withdrawing that book and two others by the same author.
Eerdmans editors compared the text of The Letter to the Hebrews (Pillar New Testament Commentary, 2010) with various secondary sources and submitted findings to external experts for verification. Summing up the findings, Editor-in-chief James Ernest said, "Our own editors and our outside consultants agreed that what we found on the pages of this commentary runs afoul of commonly accepted standards with regard to the utilization and documentation of secondary sources. We agreed that the book could not be retained in print."
Examination of the same author's Letter to the Ephesians (PNTC, 1999) and Epistle to the Philippians (New International Greek Testament Commentary, 1991) found them less pervasively flawed but still untenable.
The author, Peter T. O'Brien, was presented with the findings and provided the following response: "In the New Testament commentaries that I have written, although I have never deliberately misused the work of others, nevertheless I now see that my work processes at times have been faulty and have generated clear-cut, but unintentional, plagiarism. For this I apologize without reservation."
President and publisher Anita Eerdmans summed up the company's stance as follows: "Eerdmans is steadfastly committed to the highest ethical standards in academic and business practice, and we apologize to all who are negatively affected by this situation. Our Bible commentary series, among the best of their kind, are authored and edited by the field's top scholars. The strong measures we are taking in this case are meant to underscore our firm belief that our commentary program is, and must remain, solid."
Eerdmans is taking the following steps:
● Ceasing sales and pulp stock of all three volumes, placing them out of print.
● Offering credit to individuals and trade partners who have purchased the above three volumes.
For detailed instructions on how to pursue this option, please write to commentarycredit@eerdmans.com.
● Discussing best practices for quality control with press editors, series editors, and authors.Members of the media wishing to contact Eerdmans may send e-mail to publicity@eerdmans.com.
I don't think the statement from Eerdmans necessarily suggests that they won't revise them, especially the "less pervasively flawed" works.
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Ben Amundgaard said:
Hi all,
We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.
For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them.
Thank you!
Thanks, Ben. Very clear and helpful clarification. It's good to make clear that what we own is safe even when it is no longer being sold.
I have personally found these two volumes very very helpful. I hope that they are edited to give proper attribution and re-released.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Ben Amundgaard said:
Hi all,
We're still working with Eerdmans to come up with a plan for anyone who does want to return the commentaries.
For those to don't want to return them, please know that we will not take your commentaries away from you. You own them.
Thank you!
Thanks, Ben. Very clear and helpful clarification. It's good to make clear that what we own is safe even when it is no longer being sold.
I have personally found these two volumes very very helpful. I hope that they are edited to give proper attribution and re-released.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
This really would depend on the user agreement that you have to accept when installing the software that no one reads. I can't really comment on that since I didn't read it lol. With that said, I don't think Eerdman's can control what Logos does with those books once they are sold, though they might be able to prevent Logos' ability to restore those books (thereby meaning you should back them up manually to make certain). But since Logos is not going to remove them, then the software agreement doesn't really matter at this point.
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Reading all this reminds me of the little saying to consider carefully the consequences of being careless in one's work. I'm not sure he was careless, just not careful enough.
Logos users get the luxury of having quotations properly footnoted.
I do hope the books get updated and we get those updates. I also think Bruce would have just smiled knowing that his work had become part of the vocabulary of his student.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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mab said:
I also think Bruce would have just smiled knowing that his work had become part of the vocabulary of his student.
Although it's avoidable, I think this is often precisely the root of cases like this. You read something in a book and catch onto a particularly apt phrase that communicates an idea powerfully. You repeat the same language in your lectures on the subject. Ten years later, you write it up in a book, totally forgetting that it didn't originate with you. Seven years after that, you get caught. We don't know the extent of this particular case--and the extent matters a great deal--but I can see how it could happen.
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Another great reminder of the importance of knowing how to cite properly and where and when to cite. I swear I study that Chicago/Turabian style book more than my actual text books!
I just don't believe this was intentional and hope it gets cleared up to everyone's satisfaction. It doesn't change the fact that he is a godly man whose work is respected.
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Sean said:mab said:
I also think Bruce would have just smiled knowing that his work had become part of the vocabulary of his student.
Although it's avoidable, I think this is often precisely the root of cases like this. You read something in a book and catch onto a particularly apt phrase that communicates an idea powerfully. You repeat the same language in your lectures on the subject. Ten years later, you write it up in a book, totally forgetting that it didn't originate with you. Seven years after that, you get caught. We don't know the extent of this particular case--and the extent matters a great deal--but I can see how it could happen.
Looking at some examples, I'm convinced Peter was just sloppy with his citations. Much of the "plagiarism" is practically verbatim - even over several sentences with Bruce's published work, this clearly isn't him using personal class notes or lecture material. This is him copying Bruce's work and slightly modifying it and then not citing it properly.
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Here is one example: https://seanfwinter.com/2016/08/16/on-commentaries-and-plagiarism/
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Kevin D Williford said:
Reflects poorly not only on O'Brien, but on D. A. Carson as well.
Everett Headley said:How would Carson have known this?
I have always understood that part of the editor's responsibility so to ensure that standards are met.
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Sean said:
... You read something in a book and catch onto a particularly apt phrase that communicates an idea powerfully. You repeat the same language in your lectures on the subject. Ten years later, you write it up in a book, totally forgetting that it didn't originate with you. ...
Josh said:... I'm convinced Peter was just sloppy with his citations. Much of the "plagiarism" is practically verbatim ... this clearly isn't him using personal class notes or lecture material. ...
Just to be sure that we haven't misunderstood Sean (or Peter O'Brien's process): as a student and a teacher, I agree with Sean's original suggestion. Teachers can readily find some good ideas. It's not always appropriate to outline your sources in an oral presentation, and it's thus possible to lose track of an idea's or quotation's origin.
Of course you ought to keep track of your sources, especially when you convert them to commercial print. No one's excusing that. But there is a plausible mechanism for how this may have come about.
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I tend to use Logos notes entries like clippings. I copy the text of interest completely into the note file so that the note file can be read later without reference to the original text. When one does this, if there is any chance of propagation of the content, then one should carefully annotate the copied text. That takes several extra steps when you are on an iPad.
In this age of digital media it is quite easy to mix the material from others into one's own notes.
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I'm surprised none of his commentaries have something along these lines:
"All rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced in any form without permission in writing from the publisher except in the case of brief quotations embodied in critical articles or reviews."
In fact, none of the PNTC volumes have this. All they say is they have used the Bible version with permission of Zondervan.
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On several occasions I have searched a quote or phrase I have saved in a working document to double check it's context and have found whole paragraphs verbatim in 2 or 3 different books with no references. Academic plagiarism is more common that you think, modern tools make it easier to find.
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I completely agree.Cynthia in Florida said:Another great reminder of the importance of knowing how to cite properly and where and when to cite. I swear I study that Chicago/Turabian style book more than my actual text books!
I just don't believe this was intentional and hope it gets cleared up to everyone's satisfaction. It doesn't change the fact that he is a godly man whose work is respected.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Before this gets lost in all the L7 excitement... Any updates??
For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com
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John Kight said:
Before this gets lost in all the L7 excitement... Any updates??
What updates? FL said you won't lose your copy, but that they have removed the commentaries from their website because they're no longer selling them. As far as I know, that's the last update.
DAL
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DAL said:
What updates?
Believe FL is checking with Eerdmans concerning customers who wish to return the resources in question. That may take awhile.
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I think you're right, that's all we know. We have to wait what the publisher will do. However I'm not giving up my hope that the commentaries will be able to buy again at Logos. But it seems that a new version,... is not realistic, because Eerdmanns said they will not do that.
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Jack Caviness said:DAL said:
What updates?
Believe FL is checking with Eerdmans concerning customers who wish to return the resources in question. That may take awhile.
Why would anyone want to return them? Conscience issues perhaps?
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DAL said:Jack Caviness said:DAL said:
What updates?
Believe FL is checking with Eerdmans concerning customers who wish to return the resources in question. That may take awhile.
Why would anyone want to return them? Conscience issues perhaps?
I think the thought is that some might find them so tainted by plagiarism that they might want to get their money back. Some may see them as no longer academically useful. I agree with what seems to be the majority opinion around here that they are still great commentaries, and I would not want to return them. I would be careful citing them though!
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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C.E.H. said:
I think you're right, that's all we know. We have to wait what the publisher will do. However I'm not giving up my hope that the commentaries will be able to buy again at Logos. But it seems that a new version,... is not realistic, because Eerdmanns said they will not do that.
I don't understand your hope that the commentaries will be available for sale again at Logos. If Eerdmanns has pulled them, and doesn't put out a new version, wouldn't it be wrong for Faithlife to put them up again for sale?
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Yasmin Stephen said:C.E.H. said:
I think you're right, that's all we know. We have to wait what the publisher will do. However I'm not giving up my hope that the commentaries will be able to buy again at Logos. But it seems that a new version,... is not realistic, because Eerdmanns said they will not do that.
I don't understand your hope that the commentaries will be available for sale again at Logos. If Eerdmanns has pulled them, and doesn't put out a new version, wouldn't it be wrong for Faithlife to put them up again for sale?
Yep your right, so I didn't wanted to say that Logos should sell them without permission from the publisher. So I think it would be too much work to delete the mistakes like Eerdmanns said, so the hope is as I said not realistic. But they are great commentaries, the content is very helpful and it's so sad that only because of such stupid problems they cann't be bought more in Logos for a new generation of students, pastors, ... (However it's possible to buy them on amazon, ...)
I thought more on this: When I see how many thousands hours Logos is investing to digitise old books (Thank you very much Logos!!!), maybe there can be find be a solution to solve this problem. Maybe there are some volunteers which would help to bring out this great books again or O'Brien will make a new edition, what ever.
So that doesn't seem to be realistic, but many times unrealistic wishes come true.
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Joseph Turner said:DAL said:Jack Caviness said:DAL said:
What updates?
Believe FL is checking with Eerdmans concerning customers who wish to return the resources in question. That may take awhile.
Why would anyone want to return them? Conscience issues perhaps?
I think the thought is that some might find them so tainted by plagiarism that they might want to get their money back. Some may see them as no longer academically useful. I agree with what seems to be the majority opinion around here that they are still great commentaries, and I would not want to return them. I would be careful citing them though!
Exactly!
For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com
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We're still working on finding a solution for this. I'm sort of curious, though, how many people would actually want a refund. If everyone wants to keep them, then there's probably no need for us to look into it any further.
Senior Director, Content Products
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I'll be keeping mine, for sure.
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Ben Amundgaard said:
We're still working on finding a solution for this. I'm sort of curious, though, how many people would actually want a refund. If everyone wants to keep them, then there's probably no need for us to look into it any further.
By 'everyone' do you mean everyone in this thread or everyone who owns it? If you mean the latter (as I'm almost certain you do), I would think that the most sure way of finding this information would be to poll the owners via email, and not only ask here on the forums.
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Ben Amundgaard said:
We're still working on finding a solution for this. I'm sort of curious, though, how many people would actually want a refund. If everyone wants to keep them, then there's probably no need for us to look into it any further.
I have zero interest in a refund. At most I'd perhaps like a note on the resource information panel that the publisher had later withdrawn the book.
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I could trade my copies for an L7 Standard Platinum Upgrade hehehe
DAL
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Ben Amundgaard said:
We're still working on finding a solution for this. I'm sort of curious, though, how many people would actually want a refund. If everyone wants to keep them, then there's probably no need for us to look into it any further.
Absolutely keeping mine. O'Brien's Phillippians was a gold mine for me when going through that epistle. Almost too detailed.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Keeping mine as well.
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I also prefer to keep mine.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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I could go either way. In my current context they will do me little good and a refund would allow me to get resourced that I could actually utilize. However, if nothing is settled in that direction, I am completely fine with keeping mine.
For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com
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Count me as one who would have no interest in returning. Besides, I assume many of us got them as part of a base package. To return what I paid for it would be a matter of a few dollars. Hardly worth losing an excellent commentary.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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Ben Amundgaard said:
how many people would actually want a refund
They are still good commentaries, just need to read Bruce first, as I discovered the other day.
Todd Philipps said:O'Brien's Phillippians was a gold mine for me when going through that epistle.
My comment above concerned the introduction to that commentary. Don't think it was true for the commentary itself.
No, I am not interested in returning these resources—nor the fourth commentary I have by him, if Word decides to take the same course as Eerdmans.
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I'd like to know what the return value would be before making a decision. Academically, it's dead to me. Pastoral lyrics there's probably still value. However there are other books I'd value more in Logos.
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Everett Headley said:
I'd like to know what the return value would be before making a decision. Academically, it's dead to me. Pastoral lyrics there's probably still value. However there are other books I'd value more in Logos.
I second that.
For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com
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Everett Headley said:
I'd like to know what the return value would be before making a decision. Academically, it's dead to me. Pastoral lyrics there's probably still value. However there are other books I'd value more in Logos.
You probably get more in resale value now that the books are off the market, then you would in returning them.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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I believe we should be able to keep these books AND get a small credit back. Just saying...
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Todd Phillips said:
You probably get more in resale value now that the books are off the market
Only problem—You cannot break a set.
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