How Will Logos/Faithlife Handle This?
Comments
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Joseph Turner said:
I say once they get it worked out with the publishers, they send out an email explaining the situation to the owners of those volumes. They should just request that owners call or email that they want a refund.
I certainly hope they will do this. Relying on the forum to find out how to get a refund would not really be right. An email is appropriate when the issues are worked out.
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DAL said:
Wow some must really be short on cash 💰 LOL What if Logos said, "Refunds don't apply to digital copies, so keep it" That'd be fun to hear and then see the reactions of some haha 😂
DAL
I appreciate the sensitivity DAL. [<:o)]
For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com
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John Kight said:DAL said:
Wow some must really be short on cash 💰 LOL What if Logos said, "Refunds don't apply to digital copies, so keep it" That'd be fun to hear and then see the reactions of some haha 😂
DAL
I appreciate the sensitivity DAL.
😊 You're welcome! Just keep in mind that if it was part of a base package nobody's getting squat! And if the resource was on sale for a dollar you're only going to get a dollar back not the retail price ha ha 😜😂👌
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Everett Headley said:
Can't you remove the liscnce, and grant our account the credit, VERY MUCH like a return? I'm sure there is stuff on your end that is different and would need to be cleaned up, but this seems to be taking way too long. Meanwhile, as the consumer, I continue to wait.
That's the big issue. If someone bought the book as part of a collection or a base package, we don't have a straightforward way to just return, credit, and re-lock one volume out of that collection. We're having to create a workaround on the back end.
Senior Director, Content Products
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Joseph Turner said:
I say once they get it worked out with the publishers, they send out an email explaining the situation to the owners of those volumes. They should just request that owners call or email that they want a refund. If users don't call, then they don't want a refund. I would be surprised if a majority of owners want a refund.
This is more or less our plan.
Because the publishers are going to work with us to process the refunds, we need to make sure we give credit for the actual price someone paid (taking into account dynamic pricing, etc.). We need to make sure we have an easy way to record this data and report it to the publisher.
This would all be relatively straightforward if we were talking about 1,000 or so orders. In the case of the O'Brien volumes, we're talking about 10s of thousands of orders.
Senior Director, Content Products
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How about IVP books?
IVP Issues Statement About Peter O’Brien Plagiarism Issue
http://www.frontgatemedia.com/ivp-issues-statement-about-peter-obrien-plagiarism-issue/
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Steve said:
How about IVP books?
IVP Issues Statement About Peter O’Brien Plagiarism Issue
http://www.frontgatemedia.com/ivp-issues-statement-about-peter-obrien-plagiarism-issue/
We are aware of the issue and are working out the details.
See this post for more info http://community.logos.com/forums/t/131361.aspx?PageIndex=1
Senior Director, Content Products
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I have Ephesians and Hebrews. Can the publisher just not update them with extra referencing and foot notes?In my view they are each some of the best commentary work on these books. I'll be keeping them as I can't find anything recent that comes close.
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Oh wow, the extent of this problem with O'Brien's works is very saddening.
For anyone interested who didn't, today I received the following mail from FaithLife:
[quote]
Order update: Eerdmans Peter O'Brien Commentaries
You are receiving this email because you own at least one of the following resources.
In recent weeks Eerdmans informed Faithlife about content problems with several commentaries authored by Peter T. O’Brien. The following titles were impacted:
- Pillar New Testament Commentary: The Letter to the Ephesians
- Pillar New Testament Commentary: The Letter to the Hebrews
- New International Greek Testament Commentary: The Epistle to the Philippians
We’re offering customers who wish to return these volumes Logos creditbased on the value of the book within the collection or base package you purchased. If you purchased any of these books individually, you’ll receive the full amount you paid.
To obtain the Logos credit, please follow this link to submit your refund request before October 31, 2016.
If you have questions, you can speak to a Logos customer service representative by calling 1-360-527-1700 or by emailing cs@logos.com.
I myself will not be returning as the problem doesn't have much effect on me. I also got the books as part of a deeply discounted L6 package so would probably get less than <$10 back for both of the two volumes I have.
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Randle Bond said:
Can the publisher just not update them with extra referencing and foot notes?
It would be the author's responsibility to update them; then the publisher would incur the cost of republication with a very much compromised market. When there are less than a hanful of dropped references, an errata sheet is satisfactory and the public is scarcely aware there was a problem.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The problem lies with academic writing. The use of his resources could be severely discrediting to your work. The problem lies is you decided to go to school and forget about this issue, but you have been using Obrien for years then decide to use his works it may cost you a severely diminished grade .
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Robert Peters said:
The problem lies with academic writing. The use of his resources could be severely discrediting to your work. The problem lies is you decided to go to school and forget about this issue, but you have been using Obrien for years then decide to use his works it may cost you a severely diminished grade .
Fortunately, within Logos you can make a note by way of a tag that would alert you of this.
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"proper documentation of secondary sources"
I hate seeing Christians stepping in this Nonsence. WOW what a big Deal and a Great Sin he dit not say this Part is from (who cares who he was)...So, what?
No need for me to give it back
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I will be keeping mine as well.
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Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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I do understand this failure to document sources is a serious problem for anyone doing academic work or publishing. So I do not totally agree with Sascha John. It was a serious mistake for Dr. Peter O'Brien to make. No doubt he has paid a heavy and severe price in the loss of academic reputation alone. I do value Dr. O'Brien's work, and I pray for him in this stressful time.Sascha John said:"proper documentation of secondary sources"
I hate seeing Christians stepping in this Nonsence. WOW what a big Deal and a Great Sin he dit not say this Part is from (who cares who he was)...So, what?
No need for me to give it back
For those of us who are pastors using commentaries in our study of Scripture to understand the text for sermon / Bible Study preparation, it is not a serious matter. Peter O'Brien's commentaries are among the most helpful available.
Preachers rarely document sources to an academic or publishing standard. When I quote from someone, I certainly give them credit. However, my interpretation of a passage comes primarily from my own inductive study, supplemented by a number of commentaries. My understanding of the passage may derive from several sources that I not going to list in a sermon. I do not know anyone who does, and if they do, their sermons must be very dull.
The bottom line is that for my purposes, Peter O'Brien's commentary is still one of the best, and I intend to keep it.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Sascha John said:
"proper documentation of secondary sources"
I hate seeing Christians stepping in this Nonsence. WOW what a big Deal and a Great Sin he dit not say this Part is from (who cares who he was)...So, what?
No need for me to give it back
I am also keeping mine because I believe they are valuable, but I do believe this to be a big deal. Would you feel the same if a music artist put a song on his or her album that was actually recorded by someone else?
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Kenute P. Curry said:
I will be keeping mine as well.
[Y]
And I will be keeping mine. For me, it is more important for the information to be correct rather than who the information came from. Academically, it may be a concern, and in that case, for those that would rather keep than to sell back, a note can be placed on the tags.
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Joseph
First: Yes, I realy don't care about this.
Second: Yes, if he just forget to tell that this is not his own Song
Third: No, if he say it his own Song
Sascha
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Sascha John said:
Second: Yes, if he just forget to tell that this is not his own Song
Third: No, if he say it his own Song
In publishing under his own name, there is no difference between 2 and 3.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Here is what I've done with mine so far is tagged them "Do Not Cite" in the library so I won't accidentally use them in academic writing.
In terms of returning them, I may call CS and see what my Logos Credit would be just to be curious, but since I got them as part of a base package, it's likely my credit wouldn't be enough to buy replacement commentaries with them.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Nathan Parker said:
In terms of returning them, I may call CS and see what my Logos Credit would be just to be curious, but since I got them as part of a base package, it's likely my credit wouldn't be enough to buy replacement commentaries with them.
While I understand the complexities of what the credit would be, I also would like to know general figures before making a decision. would it be possible to give us general guidelines as to what the credit would be if purchased in a package or if purchased separately?
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I own the Pillar Ephesians and the NIGT Philippians. I also own them via the purchase of a base product. When I inquired as to the amount of my credit, this is Logos' reply:
Thank you for your email. The credit amount would be approximately $1.00. If you would like a credit and have the resources removed from your account please complete the survey.
If you opt for a credit the resources will be removed from your library. The resources will remain in your library if you do not opt for a credit.
Sincerely,
Logos Bible SoftwareNeedless to say I'm keeping both.
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That's right for me is no Difference until I hear it.
Back to the Commentary, I dont't care who wrote something I care if it is true. If I like it, there is no Problem to me to cite and say:" Pillar Commentary...says..."
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I like the line my grandson appends to every email—at least the ones he send me. He puts it in quotes, but does not say from whom it came—
[quote]“It’s amazing what people can accomplish when they have no concern for who receives the credit.”
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Jack Caviness said:
I like the line my grandson appends to every email—at least the ones he send me. He puts it in quotes, but does not say from whom it came—
[quote]“It’s amazing what people can accomplish when they have no concern for who receives the credit.”
It seems that Harry S. Truman, John Wooden and Blanton Collier said: "It's amazing how much can be accomplished if no one cares who gets the credit."
But Charles Edward Montague, an English novelist (1867-1928) already wrote 1922 in Chapter 15 of Disenchantment: "There is no limit to what a man can do so long as he does not care a straw who gets the credit for it."
Probably in this thread it's not wrong to name my source [;)] http://forum.quoteland.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/99191541/m/7123950067
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Joseph Turner said:
Would you feel the same if a music artist put a song on his or her album that was actually recorded by someone else?
While I think you are trying to illustrate by implying one artist putting the actual recording of another group on their album, a variation of this is pretty standard in the music industry, including among Christian artists. It is common for a person or band to record someone else's song on their own album. It is called "covering" another person's songs, and for many, it might add to the argument that what O'Brian did might not be particularly bad.
You might be able to extend the illustration to say, what if the second artist listed himself as the writer on his album cover, and get near this situation.
That said, the common reality in the music industry is that when the one covering the song is much more popular than the artist who first recorded it, many/most people never realize who the original source is.
For what it's worth.
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Al Het said:
That said, the common reality in the music industry is that when the one covering the song is much more popular than the artist who first recorded it, many/most people never realize who the original source is.
Something like Blue Suede Shoes?(Elvis neither wrote it, nor we he the first to have it as a #1) [:P]
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I found out my credit would be about $4.00, so certainly not enough to replace these commentaries. I'll just keep them in my library, flag them and tag them so I won't cite them in academic papers, and just use them for personal study.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Nathan Parker said:
I found out my credit would be about $4.00, so certainly not enough to replace these commentaries. I'll just keep them in my library, flag them and tag them so I won't cite them in academic papers, and just use them for personal study.
Same.
For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com
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I would love to see some of the people that whined about this whole situation take the four bucks credit and shut up or at least try to say something to see what other dumb things they will have to say LOL 😂 😜😁
DAL
Ps. FYI my credit was way more than 4 bucks since I got those at prepub price hehe
Edit: I didn't take the credit, though, because the commentaries are useful regardless. In fact, if I remember correctly, FL wrote a blog promoting Ceslas Spic on Hebrews and how O'Brien and others quoted him extensively. Great works!
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Al Het said:Joseph Turner said:
Would you feel the same if a music artist put a song on his or her album that was actually recorded by someone else?
While I think you are trying to illustrate by implying one artist putting the actual recording of another group on their album, a variation of this is pretty standard in the music industry, including among Christian artists. It is common for a person or band to record someone else's song on their own album. It is called "covering" another person's songs, and for many, it might add to the argument that what O'Brian did might not be particularly bad.
You might be able to extend the illustration to say, what if the second artist listed himself as the writer on his album cover, and get near this situation.
That said, the common reality in the music industry is that when the one covering the song is much more popular than the artist who first recorded it, many/most people never realize who the original source is.
For what it's worth.
Yeah, I'm a musician in a cover band. Whenever you put someone else's song on your album, you are required to pay for the rights, even if you re-record it. That is the acknowledgement to the person who wrote the song. It's not yours just because you re-recorded it.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Joseph Turner said:Al Het said:Joseph Turner said:
Would you feel the same if a music artist put a song on his or her album that was actually recorded by someone else?
While I think you are trying to illustrate by implying one artist putting the actual recording of another group on their album, a variation of this is pretty standard in the music industry, including among Christian artists. It is common for a person or band to record someone else's song on their own album. It is called "covering" another person's songs, and for many, it might add to the argument that what O'Brian did might not be particularly bad.
You might be able to extend the illustration to say, what if the second artist listed himself as the writer on his album cover, and get near this situation.
That said, the common reality in the music industry is that when the one covering the song is much more popular than the artist who first recorded it, many/most people never realize who the original source is.
For what it's worth.
Yeah, I'm a musician in a cover band. Whenever you put someone else's song on your album, you are required to pay for the rights, even if you re-record it. That is the acknowledgement to the person who wrote the song. It's not yours just because you re-recorded it.
Actually, Josh is right. About a year or two ago Tom Petty sue a young artist named Sam Smith because his song "Stay With Me" sounded like Tom Petty's song "I Won't Back Down." Read: http://www.avclub.com/article/sam-smith-pay-tom-petty-royalties-basically-writin-214328
Tom Petty said, "No hard feelings. These things happen," but Sam Smith still had to pay 😜😁👍👌🤘http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/tom-petty-on-sam-smith-settlement-no-hard-feelings-these-things-happen-20150129
Sam Smith, however, said it was "complete coincidence." But he still has to pay royalties 😜😂 http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/sam-smith--tom-petty-settlement-20150126
So Josh, what instrument do you play?
DAL
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DAL said:
Actually, Josh is right. About a year or two ago Tom Petty sue a young artist named Sam Smith because his song "Stay With Me" sounded like Tom Petty's song "I Won't Back Down." Read: http://www.avclub.com/article/sam-smith-pay-tom-petty-royalties-basically-writin-214328
Tom Petty said, "No hard feelings. These things happen," but Sam Smith still had to pay 😜😁👍👌🤘http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/tom-petty-on-sam-smith-settlement-no-hard-feelings-these-things-happen-20150129
Sam Smith, however, said it was "complete coincidence." But he still has to pay royalties 😜😂 http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/sam-smith--tom-petty-settlement-20150126
So Josh, what instrument do you play?
DAL
I was thinking, "Josh is right? Who is Josh?" [:P] I play guitar in a Trans-Siberian Orchestra cover band called the Spirit Express Orchestra. We play free shows at churches in the greater Birmingham area during Christmas. It's a fun hobby, and it keeps my guitar skills up!
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Sorry, I meant Joseph. A friend of mine who was a missionary in Australia is named Joshua Turner and my mind swapped the names when writing it. 👍 We're good, though, right? 😜
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DAL said:
We're good, though, right? 😜
Yes, after few several years of counseling I will get over being called Josh, lol. I teach high school. I can assure you I've been called worse!
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Joseph Turner said:
after few several years of counseling I will get over being called Josh, lol.
Not a bad name to be called....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGbSbAWp7Jo&list=PLIpMpv1NUMetNWifgQgMdvZlN_XWk7KRu
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Joseph Turner said:Al Het said:Joseph Turner said:
Would you feel the same if a music artist put a song on his or her album that was actually recorded by someone else?
While I think you are trying to illustrate by implying one artist putting the actual recording of another group on their album, a variation of this is pretty standard in the music industry, including among Christian artists. It is common for a person or band to record someone else's song on their own album. It is called "covering" another person's songs, and for many, it might add to the argument that what O'Brian did might not be particularly bad.
You might be able to extend the illustration to say, what if the second artist listed himself as the writer on his album cover, and get near this situation.
That said, the common reality in the music industry is that when the one covering the song is much more popular than the artist who first recorded it, many/most people never realize who the original source is.
For what it's worth.
Yeah, I'm a musician in a cover band. Whenever you put someone else's song on your album, you are required to pay for the rights, even if you re-record it. That is the acknowledgement to the person who wrote the song. It's not yours just because you re-recorded it.
This is true. When I released my Christmas album to be sold, I had to pay royalties for the cover songs I recorded. Wasn't fun to do, but it protected me. :-) Thankfully I used some public domain stuff too.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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DAL said:
I would love to see some of the people that whined about this whole situation take the four bucks credit and shut up or at least try to say something to see what other dumb things they will have to say LOL 😂 😜😁
DAL
Ps. FYI my credit was way more than 4 bucks since I got those at prepub price hehe
Edit: I didn't take the credit, though, because the commentaries are useful regardless. In fact, if I remember correctly, FL wrote a blog promoting Ceslas Spic on Hebrews and how O'Brien and others quoted him extensively. Great works!
In terms of the credit, the only reason I was interested in the credit was if there'd be enough of an incentive for me to replace these with other academic commentaries. Since I'm in seminary and will be going for a PhD, I need to cite from quality academic commentaries, and while I have a boatload of commentaries, I am limited on how many technical academic commentaries I have. NIGTC and Pillar were two my seminary accepted as commentaries I could cite from. Now that three of those volumes I can no longer cite from, I would have been interested in replacing them with different academic/technical commentaries if the credit would have been enough to apply toward them. With $4.00 though, I'll just keep them and use them for personal studies and just purchase other academic commentaries on demand when I need them. Gettin Hermeneia in Platinum 7 have definitely helped.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Very sad for to read this post. I was student under Peter O'Brien at Moore College in Sydney. Peter had just returned from England and was obviously totally impacted by his personal contact with FF Bruce.
His lectures were detailed analysis of the NT Greek text, with copious and more copious quotes from FF Bruce. I rudely asked him on one occasion "FF Who?" After a stare and a thought he realised my student rudeness.
We have always been on good terms.
Many of the quotes that Peter made were from lectures, private seminars and conversations with FFB. We realised we were right up with the latest because FFB had not yet published his work. I wonder whether Peter later included stuff in his commentary that he did not realise FFB had published. Just a thought.
Peter O'Brien has been (is) a wonderful leader in our church. I have read his commentaries with great reward, and his ploughed through his shared Variegated garden with patience.
I will continue to do the same.
Stephen Miller
Blue Mountains
Australia
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Stephen Miller said:
I wonder whether Peter later included stuff in his commentary that he did not realise FFB had published.
I don't know but standard academic practice would be for footnote FFB materials as "personal communication" if it were not published.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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