O'Brien commentaries and Academics
I am starting a new thread to discuss what happened with O'Brien's commentaries and the question of whether to return these commentaries for refund or keep them in relation to academic writing.
I can see the value of keeping them. In my view, they probably still have great value. Moreover, I am concerned that these volumes are not close to being replaced (we will be missing the corresponding book in the collections of which they are part).
BUT I am also concerned about the possibility, in keeping these resources, of forgetting not to use or reference them for published or submitted work. To keep them would seem to have to be for personal use only. Even so, I wish there was some kind of flag up (something one cannot miss, like a red banner) to remind us to use with caution.
Thoughts?
Comments
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I will keep them because they still have useful information, and they are a good jumping off point to do research. There are also several other sources that reference his works, so those references are important to be able to follow. You just have to be careful.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Could you create a highlight that covers the whole text and give it a light red background to get your attention when you open the resource?
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I suspect that since these commentaries were so highly rated and thought of for so many years, most will want to keep them. I know I'm keeping mine. For pastoral and lay ministry use, I don't see any problem using them. As for scholarly and academic work, he was so widely quoted that I think it will be hard to completely ignore him.
In my library I did a search on just his name "Peter T. O’Brien" and got 53,742 results in 2,482 articles in 1,209 resources! That is a lot of interaction the academy has had with O'Brien.
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Francis said:
discuss what happened with O'Brien's commentaries
As one who still works in academia, I get to see the shiny side and the ugly side of the plagiarism issue quite often. And as one who teaches research writing methods, I am tasked with communicating the details to students.
Academia gets a few things right on the issue: insistence on documentation, and not only that, but other details, like the use of signal phrases and such; taking responsibility for your work (or checking the work of research assistants); and requiring diligence in research.
But academia also gets some things very wrong, in particular the failure (willful or not) to differentiate between the various kinds of plagiarism. While not everyone agrees on how to taxonify the issue, most can agree there is intentional plagiarism and unintentional plagiarism. The latter can be broken down into negligent unintentional and non-negligent unintentional plagiarism. (You can break these down even more, but it isn't essential to understanding the issue.) Academia tends to treat all these the same way, unfortunately.
I don't want to write a thesis here, so I will sum this up with one small challenge: Those of you who are the most critical of O'Brien's error take a paper you've written and run it through one of the online plagiarism checkers. See what happens.
There really is nothing new under the sun.
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What will happen if someone writes a truly original theological paper?
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Veli Voipio said:
What will happen if someone writes a truly original theological paper?
That's called "Scripture". [li][:D]
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Personally, I think the academic citation of O'Brien's commentaries is not an issue. Let me explain. When you give an academic citation, you are indicating the publication from which you gave the quotation or learned the information or got the idea. In this case, the idea comes to you from a particular book of PT O'Brien's and you are giving the details. You will not be graded on whether or not you have learned the idea from the first person who ever said it. But you will want to be careful to avoid plagiarism and so you will be careful to footnote your source.
The distinguishing feature of PT O'Brien's commentaries for which he has rightly received credit from reviewers is his discernment. Helped by the works of other scholars, he has come to a reasonable and defensible explanation of the text he is exegeting. That is the kind of discernment we all need.
For example, if I look up Philippians 1:21 in my library using the passage guide, I am offered comments from no less 114 resources. Though this does not represent 114 different opinions, I need Spirit-given discernment to know how death can be gain if to live is Christ.
O'Brien gives a lengthy and very helpful discussion in which he quotes the views of many scholars (!) but concludes with 2 ideas. 1) because it means deeper fellowship with the Lord Jesus. 2) It may possibly include the idea that his death as a Christian would be the ultimate testimony to the supremacy and value of Christ.
By the way his first explanation connects with my favourite explanation which comes from another book in my library which includes a sermon by the Lord Bishop of Bradford. He says "To live is Christ. To die is more Christ, Christ seen clearer, Christ understood more fully, Christ enjoyed at closer quarters." (See “Grimshaw of Haworth: Bi-Centenary,” The Churchman 56, no. 1–4 (1942): 429.)
Though he gives no attribution, Bishop Bradford may have found the phrase in PT Forsyth's This Life and the Next (1918 edition but originally published in 1903). And the same could perhaps be said of James Hastings who wrote, 'When to live is Christ, to die is, so to speak, more Christ.' See James Hastings, ed., The Great Texts of the Bible: Ephesians to Colossians (New York; Edinburgh: Charles Scribner’s Sons; T&T Clark, 1913), 287.
Colin.
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I will be keeping mine because while a serious charge I do not think it was intentional and the volumes are most useful.
-Dan
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I am not working in Academia - and it has been a while since I have been a formal student. But what I recall of footnoting, the proper procedure is to footnote where you get an idea. And so while I certainly understand not recommending these works and not using them for further research, would it not be a bit dishonest for those who have been influenced by O'Brien to not cite him as the source? Yes, the note could be something like "O'Brien based on earlier work of Bruce."
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What I've done with mine so far is tagged them "Do Not Cite" in the library so I won't accidentally use them in academic writing.
In terms of returning them, I may call CS and see what my Logos Credit would be just to be curious, but since I got them as part of a base package, it's likely my credit wouldn't be enough to buy replacement commentaries with them.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Virgil Buttram said:Veli Voipio said:
What will happen if someone writes a truly original theological paper?
That's called "Scripture".
PERFECT response! I never can come up with those witty one-liners!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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What about his WBC volume on Colossians and Philemon? Has that been found to have plagiarism in it as well?
I think I will hang on to mine. The credit is only $12.
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Donnie Vick said:
What about his WBC volume on Colossians and Philemon? Has that been found to have plagiarism in it as well?
Donnie, so far nothing has been said by the publisher of that volume. (It is from a different publisher than the volumes that were withdrawn.)
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Keeping mine. I value them for the content not the citations.
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I emailed Logos Customer Service, asking about how much the credit would be for returning the three volumes. I have Logos 7 Gold as my most recent base package. If I were to return them, I would get a whopping $8.00 credit.
I'm keeping mine, with the added tag of "do not cite" for if I ever go back to school.
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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I will keep mine, but will not tag them with anything. I dont worry to accidentally cite those sourses because beleive me, I will remember O'Briens name.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Nathan Parker said:
What I've done with mine so far is tagged them "Do Not Cite" in the library so I won't accidentally use them in academic writing.
Nathan,
I've followed your example and tagged them with "Do Not Cite" in my library. Thank you.
I can see how this might help if I have a reason to open one of these resources' information pane or if I access one of the resources through my library pane and happen to notice the "My Tags" column. However, I'm not in the habit of doing either of these, so I'm not quite understanding how this will provide me adequate warning upon opening one of these books. I've never tagged any book before so there very well might be some benefit I'm overlooking. I'm not involved in academic work now, but if I happen to enroll in classes several years from now I may not remember I tagged these resources. I'd appreciate you thoughts on this.
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Willie said:
I've followed your example and tagged them with "Do Not Cite" in my library. Thank you.
I can see how this might help if I have a reason to open one of these resources' information pane or if I access one of the resources through my library pane and happen to notice the "My Tags" column. However, I'm not in the habit of doing either of these, so I'm not quite understanding how this will provide me adequate warning upon opening one of these books.
I too find this practice to be helpful and I have adopted it with modifications taking into account your observations. I alter the Title and the Short Title with my designation "DNCite" for Do Not Cite to alert me to the academy's objections to these titles. In addition to the 3 O'Brien works I have done this with the Varner James EEC volume. Thanks to you!
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
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Using the short title is useful because it is the title that shows in the resource top bar when it is open. I replaced it altogether with "PLAGIARISM CONCERN!". I don't really need NIGTC Philippians to show at all because there is the resource icon which tells me which series it is and the info button if need be. What I like with the short title is that it is always visible no matter where one is in the resource. Putting it in caps really works to draw attention to it because short titles are not normally all caps.
I feel bad to have to "brand" O'Brien's commentaries like this. Certainly it is no judgement on my part toward him, just a strictly academic measure.
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Beloved said:
I alter the Title and the Short Title with my designation "DNCite" for Do Not Cite to alert me to the academy's objections to these titles.
Personally added ?: prefix to resource titles plus ?Plagiarism? tag
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Beloved said:
I too find this practice to be helpful and I have adopted it with modifications taking into account your observations. I alter the Title and the Short Title with my designation "DNCite" for Do Not Cite to alert me to the academy's objections to these titles.
Thanks a lot Beloved! Your suggestions as well as those of Francis and Keep Smiling are very helpful.
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Thanks for those who provided feedback and an alternate way in modifying the title and short titles. I may do this myself.
I tend to open a lot of my stuff from the library (even when writing academic papers) and run the guides afterwards. For some reason instead of using the guides heavily, I've gotten more in the habit of going straight to the library, opening the books I want to research first, then use the guides more as a "fallback" to check to see what else I missed. Therefore, I'd see my tagging when in the library.
It is a great point though about not being able to see the tagging when using guides, etc., so I really like the idea of modifying the title and short titles to be crystal clear about this. Great pointer.
I found out my credit would be about $4.00, so certainly not enough to replace these commentaries. I'll just keep them in my library, flag them and tag them so I won't cite them in academic papers, and just use them for personal benefit.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Has anyone seen a journal or seminary statement on how to handle these? I am curious what the Academy's position is on this kind of thing, and couldn't find anything similar enough in the past to use as a paradigm.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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I use DNR (do not resuscitate) in my secular vocation. I will just tag these resources as DNR (do not regurgitate).[:)]
Director
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Straining at gnats...
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Here in desert country, we have no-see-ums. You just can't strain against no-see-ums. And they itch worse than mosquitos.
I think this is not a gnat problem; it's a no-see-ums problem.
Years back, when a CEO got caught on tax fraud, we dumped our participation in the company. No holier-than-thou-ism ... just distaste.
If indeed true concerning the behavior being discussed, the writing would be deleted. Period. Again, assuming if true. Always the question.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Justin Gatlin said:
Has anyone seen a journal or seminary statement on how to handle these? I am curious what the Academy's position is on this kind of thing, and couldn't find anything similar enough in the past to use as a paradigm.
My seminary hasn't weighed in, but I have tagged these "Do Not Cite" (and may also add it to the title of the commentary to ensure I don't), and I'm certainly not going to chance citing these in future academic writings for seminary or any other academic writing I'm involved in. The word is out about these, so using them could weaken my future academic writing. They'll still be great for personal use though, and I can just use other academic commentaries on these few Bible books for my academic writing.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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Personally added ?: prefix to resource titles plus ?Plagiarism? tag
After rereading Jonathan Ray replies => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/129058/838691.aspx#838691 and => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/129058/838703.aspx#838703
added ?F.F.Bruce? tag to Peter O'Brien resources (along with ?Plagiarism? tag).
Thankful for Todd Phillips reply => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/129058/848368.aspx#848368
Todd Phillips said:From what I've examined just doing Logos searches, this is beyond just reusing ideas. O'Brien often cites his sources without using explicit quotes, but his method of paraphrasing them is to change a word or two here and remove a few others--the kind of stuff high school students get in trouble for. Illegitimate paraphrasing is shown on this page: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/619/1/ and O'Brien is clearly doing that.
I'd have trouble quoting him knowing that they aren't really his words--but neither are they the exact words of the source, so I can't quote them as the source, either. Here's an example:
Hellenistic literary devices, such as repetition, anaphora, inclusio, parallelism, rhetorical questions, direct address to the listeners, oratorical imperative, ‘hook words’, and the like were employed by the author as he composed his ‘word of exhortation’ to be read aloud in the congregation to which it was addressed.
Peter T. O’Brien, The Letter to the Hebrews, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Nottingham, England: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2010), 24.Devices like repetition, anaphora, inclusio, responsio, parallelism, catchword association, oratorical imperatives, direct address to the listeners, rhetorical questions, “hook-words,” and the like are present in Hebrews because of the need to provide oral assistance to the listeners.
William L. Lane, Hebrews 1–8, vol. 47A, Word Biblical Commentary (Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1998), lxxv.Personal desire for "?:" in titles is reminder to diligently research plus test and hold onto what is good. For paper writing, would ponder including many sources along with comments about similarities (plagiaristic workflow) and differences. Innovation is using existing items in different (creative) way(s).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Maybe label them "anathema"?
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I thought Logos wouldn't remove Peter T. O'Brien's commentary from our library (and I think they don't have the right to do that, since I bought the book). But now it seems they did and I wasn't aware of it...
Does any of you still have O'Brien's commentary on Hebrews (Pillar), Ephesians (Pillar) or Philippians (NIGTC)?
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Michel Pauw said:
Does any of you still have O'Brien's commentary on Hebrews (Pillar), Ephesians (Pillar) or Philippians (NIGTC)?
I still have those three commentaries.
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Michel Pauw said:
I thought Logos wouldn't remove Peter T. O'Brien's commentary from our library (and I think they don't have the right to do that, since I bought the book). But now it seems they did and I wasn't aware of it...
Does any of you still have O'Brien's commentary on Hebrews (Pillar), Ephesians (Pillar) or Philippians (NIGTC)?
Michael
I have the 2 Pillar volumes in my library, but curiously I can't find them by searching by his name, but only by searching for Pillar.
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Scott E. Mahle said:Michel Pauw said:
Does any of you still have O'Brien's commentary on Hebrews (Pillar), Ephesians (Pillar) or Philippians (NIGTC)?
I still have those three commentaries.
And so do I
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Paul Caneparo said:Michel Pauw said:
I thought Logos wouldn't remove Peter T. O'Brien's commentary from our library (and I think they don't have the right to do that, since I bought the book). But now it seems they did and I wasn't aware of it...
Does any of you still have O'Brien's commentary on Hebrews (Pillar), Ephesians (Pillar) or Philippians (NIGTC)?
Michael
I have the 2 Pillar volumes in my library, but curiously I can't find them by searching by his name, but only by searching for Pillar.
Did you by chance use the accent character instead of the apostrophe to type O'Brien? For me, filtering for author:o'brien will display the Pillar books (plus more by him and other authors named O'Brien). Unfortunately I never had the NIGTC book by him in my library.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Paul Caneparo said:
I have the 2 Pillar volumes in my library, but curiously I can't find them by searching by his name, but only by searching for Pillar.
Leave out the apostrophe in your search criteria. Also, check your spelling of O'Brien.
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NB.Mick said:Paul Caneparo said:Michel Pauw said:
I thought Logos wouldn't remove Peter T. O'Brien's commentary from our library (and I think they don't have the right to do that, since I bought the book). But now it seems they did and I wasn't aware of it...
Does any of you still have O'Brien's commentary on Hebrews (Pillar), Ephesians (Pillar) or Philippians (NIGTC)?
Michael
I have the 2 Pillar volumes in my library, but curiously I can't find them by searching by his name, but only by searching for Pillar.
Did you by chance use the accent character instead of the apostrophe to type O'Brien? For me, filtering for author:o'brien will display the Pillar books (plus more by him and other authors named O'Brien). Unfortunately I never had the NIGTC book by him in my library.
Works as you describe on a desktop. But doesn't on my tablet, which is my default method of using Faithlife.
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Jack Caviness said:Paul Caneparo said:
I have the 2 Pillar volumes in my library, but curiously I can't find them by searching by his name, but only by searching for Pillar.
Leave out the apostrophe in your search criteria. Also, check your spelling of O'Brien.
Correct for a desktop. I was using my tablet though. It's obviously not a major problem.
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Paul Caneparo said:
Works as you describe on a desktop. But doesn't on my tablet
Very strange - and I see the problem on my iPad
Strangely - it does find them if I just use "obrien"
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Graham Criddle said:Paul Caneparo said:
Works as you describe on a desktop. But doesn't on my tablet
Very strange - and I see the problem on my iPad
Strangely - it does find them if I just use "obrien"
Strange it works on an iPad. Doesn't on my Android. Even more strange "O'Brien" does get results, but for Brandon O'Brien.
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Paul Caneparo said:
Strange it works on an iPad. Doesn't on my Android.
brien works on my Android, but not on my ipad.
This does need tidying up[:)]
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Michel Pauw said:
Does any of you still have O'Brien's commentary on Hebrews (Pillar), Ephesians (Pillar) or Philippians (NIGTC)?
I still have them, thankfully.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:Michel Pauw said:
Does any of you still have O'Brien's commentary on Hebrews (Pillar), Ephesians (Pillar) or Philippians (NIGTC)?
I still have them, thankfully.
Yes, could care less about this non-issue.
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I still have all the three of the O'Brien resources, and the Varner EEC for James, and BECNT John by Kostenberger. I have them all marked in multiple ways to not cite, but still consult them as they are very useful.
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Matt Hamrick said:
I still have all the three of the O'Brien resources, and the Varner EEC for James, and BECNT John by Kostenberger. I have them all marked in multiple ways to not cite, but still consult them as they are very useful.
The information is still true regardless. Is not like plagiarism means “false information.” I still have my copies and refer to them when preparing a class or a sermon. I won’t be writing an academic paper any time soon anyway.
DAL
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Stanley Porter seemed to think it was an issue ... commentaries regurgitating commentaries (with unintended goof-ups in the regurgitating).
Presuming his points, ECC seems a definite long-shot.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I still have all three. I only checked on my laptop, but all three show up whether searching on obrien or o'brien.Michel Pauw said:I thought Logos wouldn't remove Peter T. O'Brien's commentary from our library (and I think they don't have the right to do that, since I bought the book). But now it seems they did and I wasn't aware of it...
Does any of you still have O'Brien's commentary on Hebrews (Pillar), Ephesians (Pillar) or Philippians (NIGTC)?
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DAL said:
The information is still true regardless. Is not like plagiarism means “false information.”
Yes, and more importantly, not all the information was plagiarized. It is still useful, and O'Brien is a good author, in my experience.
If you find something that was plagiarized (and those sources were made public, IIRC), simply go to the other (original) source and cite it from there.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Denise said:
Stanley Porter seemed to think it was an issue ... commentaries regurgitating commentaries (with unintended goof-ups in the regurgitating).
Denise, thank you for that link. I had read it previously, but it is well worth a second look, and a third…
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Just wonder, what would happen if a commentary said something actually new?
For example in Matthew 14:26 one could say that Jesus waited for a good wind and started surfing.
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Cynthia in Florida said:
PERFECT response! I never can come up with those witty one-liners!
Witty yes - Perfect not so much
Current theological reflection is based on our reading of scripture itself and the reading of as much theological writing as we can manage. These can go back all the way to the early church fathers and even into the Jewish rabbinic sources.
Two points.
1. Are the early church father writing scripture as they are often writing entirely original theological 'papers'? (i.e. based almost exclusively on scripture, often in the very early days on OT and a partial NT)
2. Original first century exegesis contain scores of oblique and manipulative (imprecise) citation forms. For instance Midrash and Pesher forms. Even Jesus can be demonstrated to use these forms - often not giving the Prophet due credit for the saying being used.
I understand the problem. We are struggling to contain the dishonest student (and others) who are often claiming the work of predecessors as their own, or being slack in formal citation (useful to researchers).
At the other end we are becoming so closed down by our reaction to this problem that we are unable to confidently call upon our background experience and reading that we can write freely. This becomes particularly true when the rigor expected of academics is increasing year on year to counter the problem.
So the free quoting of sources in the style of our predecessors is now denied to us!
There are no easy answers to any of this.
Shalom.
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