How Will Logos/Faithlife Handle This?

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This post has 195 Replies | 11 Followers

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 6 2016 4:18 PM

Bill Cook:

Jack Caviness:

Paul-C:

a superb analysis of the situation. Thank you for the link.

Well said Mr. Stanley, well said!!! I'm keeping my copies too! 👍

Let the weak in conscience return their copies...hehehe...😜

Indeed!

Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 6 2016 4:56 PM

Everett Headley:

ah CBD...its been so longs since I even got  flyer from them...

I'm not sure how they are still in business. Perhaps a large part of their income now comes from selling Christian homeschool material. Which, by the way, I believe Faithlife/Lexham/Vryso should try their luck at.

As for the topic at hand, I've decided to keep my commentaries, but still wish they would refund "partial" credit back to those who bought them and want to keep them. This needs to be the third option. I don't mind paying for the books, but the price I originally paid was based on the original academic value this resource was suppose to provide. Since this academic value has decreased, so should the original price paid. 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 6 2016 6:18 PM

Josh:
Since this academic value has decreased, so should the original price paid. 

As Stanley Porter pointed out in the linked article, O'Brien merely did what almost every other commentary writer does. He just got called out for what is —to all intents and purposes—normal practice. If the academic value of his commentaries is decreased, then honesty would require that the academic value of 95% of all other commentaries should also be decreased.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 6 2016 6:50 PM

Jack Caviness:
O'Brien merely did what almost every other commentary writer does. He just got called out for what is —to all intents and purposes—normal practice.

Okay, I stayed out of this but . . . The concept of an author owning their work is quite new - think 4 centuries or so ... So much of Porter's argument is anachronistic. Even so, ancient authors often specify their sources, when the resources to do so were available ... think of the authors we know only from the quotes in other authors or the the catenas ...

As for the self-evident point that current commentaries draw on the knowledge of previous commentaries without always giving credit, remember the rule of thumb for when information is "common knowledge" and therefore no longer requires attribution: "Generally speaking, you can regard something as common knowledge if you find the same information undocumented in at least five credible sources. Additionally, it might be common knowledge if you think the information you're presenting is something your readers will already know, or something that a person could easily find in general reference sources."

There are more subtle forms of plagarism beyond n consecutive words copied: see http://usingsources.fas.harvard.edu/what-constitutes-plagiarism

I fully accept the explanation that work flow created the problem ... it is very easy to develop such work flows with the ease of web access and copy & paste. But any undergraduate should have the rules in their head by the end of their first year. And sloppy work habits may well be indicative of sloppy thinking habits. So sorry, I have no sympathy for an author who got caught for multiple publications having refractions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 165
Clifford B. Kvidahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 6 2016 7:08 PM

Josh:

Since this academic value has decreased, so should the original price paid.

Well, in that case we should be able to get partial refunds for thousands of books whose "academic value" has decreased. I am not just talking about plagiarism, but those books that once were held in high regard by the academic guild that have now been discredited or proved to be built on faulty argumentation. I just do not know how an argument like this is sustainable. 

Cliff

Posts 5613
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 7 2016 3:57 PM

MJ. Smith:

There are more subtle forms of plagarism beyond n consecutive words copied: see http://usingsources.fas.harvard.edu/what-constitutes-plagiarism

I fully accept the explanation that work flow created the problem ... it is very easy to develop such work flows with the ease of web access and copy & paste. But any undergraduate should have the rules in their head by the end of their first year. And sloppy work habits may well be indicative of sloppy thinking habits. So sorry, I have no sympathy for an author who got caught for multiple publications having refractions.

From what I've examined just doing Logos searches, this is beyond just reusing ideas. O'Brien often cites his sources without using explicit quotes, but his method of paraphrasing them is to change a word or two here and remove a few others--the kind of stuff high school students get in trouble for.  Illegitimate paraphrasing is shown on this page: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/619/1/ and O'Brien is clearly doing that.

I'd have trouble quoting him knowing that they aren't really his words--but neither are they the exact words of the source, so I can't quote them as the source, either.  Here's an example:

Hellenistic literary devices, such as repetition, anaphora, inclusio, parallelism, rhetorical questions, direct address to the listeners, oratorical imperative, ‘hook words’, and the like were employed by the author as he composed his ‘word of exhortation’ to be read aloud in the congregation to which it was addressed.
Peter T. O’Brien, The Letter to the Hebrews, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Nottingham, England: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2010), 24.

Devices like repetition, anaphora, inclusio, responsio, parallelism, catchword association, oratorical imperatives, direct address to the listeners, rhetorical questions, “hook-words,” and the like are present in Hebrews because of the need to provide oral assistance to the listeners.
William L. Lane, Hebrews 1–8, vol. 47A, Word Biblical Commentary (Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1998), lxxv.

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Bill Cook | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 8:24 AM

That is troubling...

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 8 2016 1:53 PM

Todd Phillips:
From what I've examined just doing Logos searches, this is beyond just reusing ideas. O'Brien often cites his sources without using explicit quotes, but his method of paraphrasing them is to change a word or two here and remove a few others--the kind of stuff high school students get in trouble for.  Illegitimate paraphrasing is shown on this page: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/619/1/ and O'Brien is clearly doing that.

I have learned that my attempted defense of O'Brien was quite premature. When I was working with the an introduction to Philippians, I read Bruce's Apostle of the Heart Set Free on Philippi. Then, when I read O'Brien's introduction in NIGTC, it was extremely close—something that definitely should have required citation. Then, another paragraph read very much like comments made by Gerald Hawthorne (WBC). This is much more than the situations Porter described in the article I cited in my previous post.

If anyone wants the references to those two examples, I can go back and find them again. 

Posts 570
HansK | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 3:58 AM

See for some nuance this blog from Stanley Porter:

The Shocking News of Peter O’Brien and Plagiarism: August is the Cruellest Month

https://domainthirtythree.com/2016/09/05/the-shocking-news-of-peter-obrien-and-plagiarism-august-is-the-cruellest-month/

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Posts 666
James McAdams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 4:02 AM

Hans K:

See for some nuance this blog from Stanley Porter:

The last few comments have been replying to/building on an earlier post linking to that article.

Posts 1493
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2016 8:54 AM

Clifford B. Kvidahl:

Josh:

Since this academic value has decreased, so should the original price paid.

Well, in that case we should be able to get partial refunds for thousands of books whose "academic value" has decreased. I am not just talking about plagiarism, but those books that once were held in high regard by the academic guild that have now been discredited or proved to be built on faulty argumentation. I just do not know how an argument like this is sustainable. 

Cliff

That's not what I meant by academic value. I meant the value of a work as a citable source in other scholarly work.

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John Kight | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 18 2016 6:43 PM

Any update on this, Ben? 

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Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2016 10:40 AM

Did This get forgotten? It's been 36 days since this news broke.  

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Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2016 9:09 PM

Steven Leavitt:

That is a distinct issue and a different commentary, by a different publisher. Presumably the events of this thread caused the notice of that one.

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2016 9:10 PM

What would be the best recommendation for this?

Should I either return the volumes back to Logos for a refund, or would they still be beneficial to me in my personal Bible study and I should just leave them in my library?

If I choose to leave them in my library, should I tag them as resources not to cite (some form of "Do Not Cite" tagging so I can remember not to cite them in any future academic papers? Should I refrain from citing them in future academic papers should I choose to keep them?

Thanks!

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 6323
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2016 4:13 AM

Wow and FL just realized this now. How incompetent the editors of the James EEC who missed this, after spending money on the volume and even putting a mobile Ed for it. How come they haven't said anything about pulling out the Mobile Ed on James since it's pretty much based on the EEC and the author's "research"?

All this fuss for nonsense that has been going on for years. Most commentaries are written like this.  Example: "As so and so aptly stated...as so and so rightly observed...as so and so put it...so and so's comments summarize the issue..." AND on and on the similar phrases go and many times only another author's name is mentioned and not the actual written source. Since when do we have to "copyright" our comments on the Bible? I'm sure God must be looking down on this man-made mess and is probably either laughing at it or saying, "Oh boy, judgement day is gonna be full of surprises!" Shame, shame!

DAL

Posts 2328
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2016 5:41 AM

Nathan Parker:

If I choose to leave them in my library, should I tag them as resources not to cite (some form of "Do Not Cite" tagging so I can remember not to cite them in any future academic papers? Should I refrain from citing them in future academic papers should I choose to keep them?

Thanks!

It's a good question.  It sounds like the content is still excellent, but who wrote what is the question.

I plan on keeping mine, but I'm not sure about the citation issue.  I should do something as a reminder, because 5 years from now I'll have long forgotten this issue and I don't want to attribute information to one author when it really belongs to another.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2016 6:03 AM

Nathan Parker:

What would be the best recommendation for this?

Should I either return the volumes back to Logos for a refund, or would they still be beneficial to me in my personal Bible study and I should just leave them in my library?

If I choose to leave them in my library, should I tag them as resources not to cite (some form of "Do Not Cite" tagging so I can remember not to cite them in any future academic papers? Should I refrain from citing them in future academic papers should I choose to keep them?

I too plan on keeping mine but citing is another issue. Perhaps your tag "Do Not Cite" may be the best approach.

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Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2016 7:44 AM

At an undergrad level you might get away with it.  At Grad school level, it would be discouraged.  If you wrote a dissertation and tried to defend it, I am sure it would get hit.  I tend to look at bibliographies first when reading someone's paper.  

I, personally, would never cite it.

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