An Open Letter to Bob Pritchett
Comments
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This is not how I feel. I thank the Lord nearly everyday I use Logos 4 for how this marvelous tool helps me grow spiritually!
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Kevin
I'm not what you would term a Mac addict. I just wanted to leave Windows behind after 16 years of frustration, as my computers got slower and more crash-prone. I only moved when I did because my main program was Logos and it was finally made available in Mac, albeit in a very amputated form – Logos for Mac 1. If Logos hadn't moved to Mac I would have just stayed with Windows and kept changing my computer every two years, as I have been doing. But I would not have been a happy bunny. My iMac is just so easy, quick, sleek and stable. It's what I wanted Windows to be, but it never was.
I'm glad Logos was made available for Mac, and you know what? I think Mac may well be a growing market for Logos.
Every blessing,
Alan
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8
iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1
iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1
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I suppose it's fair to ask--for all those who are taking notes in another piece of software, how are you linking back to Logos 4? I don't seem to see any way to do that... Is there a URL? And how do you search for those notes within Logos? IE, what you really want is more of a database than a word processor here, I think.
As for the book builder, that would be nice... But one thing I would really like in notes is for people who I respect to be able to release their notes "into the wild." The book builder option would be good for this, but wouldn't it be "cool" if Logos could interact with a "wiki" sort of web site where a group of people could build "community notes," or something like that? And wouldn't it be cool if your pastor could release his "study notes for the week" from his sermon preparation without having to "build a book?" And for seminary students, think of the boon of having your reading list or research list given to you as a logos notes file...
The book builder idea is, I'm afraid, too "restricted," in many ways, compared to notes.
Just some more thoughts to consider.
Russ
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I would eat my mac before I went to the point of running parallels on it... Just sayin'...
:-)
Russ
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RussWhite said:
But one thing I would really like in notes is for people who I respect to be able to release their notes "into the wild." The book builder option would be good for this, but wouldn't it be "cool" if Logos could interact with a "wiki" sort of web site where a group of people could build "community notes," or something like that? And wouldn't it be cool if your pastor could release his "study notes for the week" from his sermon preparation without having to "build a book?" And for seminary students, think of the boon of having your reading list or research list given to you as a logos notes file...
I'm sure this is coming down the pipe. The direction Logos is moving certainly implies that sharing will increase rather than decrease between L3 and L4. P.S. I was also told this was coming in this week's MPSeminar.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dudley,
This solution would only work if the corpus was available via both computers.
hth
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
I suggested to two MacAddicts that they run Parallels and they looked at me like I was suggesting they divorce their wives. Some will not do it no matter what. And for people like Accordance or WordSearch looks a lot better. While I wish they wouldn't, I understand why Logos is going after MacAddicts.
I expected better of you Kevin. You wish Bob weren't porting Logos to OSX? You don't seem to have a problem with Logos on the iPhone and iPad. Is it because you own (or will own) them?
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
I suggested to two MacAddicts that they run Parallels and they looked at me like I was suggesting they divorce their wives. Some will not do it no matter what. And for people like Accordance or WordSearch looks a lot better. While I wish they wouldn't, I understand why Logos is going after MacAddicts.
Kevin,
I'm guessing your term "mac addict" was not meant as a slam but just as a short-hand reference to those who use macs...
For myself, I'll put myself in their shoes; I currently own a PC and everything is hunky dory, but the only software that won't run natively on it is Logos 4. So I buy "Mac-allels" and run it on top of that. It's not exactly the same; there are drawbacks, I'm forced to fire up "Mac-allels" when I want to run this ONE piece of software
I can see their point...I wouldn't want to have to boot into the Mac OS or use the Mac OS for any reason if I'm a PC user....Personally, I'd only do it for Logos...but I don't hold that against anyone else...many aren't willing to make that compromise....but are willing to wait....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Terry Poperszky said:Kevin A. Purcell said:
I suggested to two MacAddicts that they run Parallels and they looked at me like I was suggesting they divorce their wives. Some will not do it no matter what. And for people like Accordance or WordSearch looks a lot better. While I wish they wouldn't, I understand why Logos is going after MacAddicts.
I expected better of you Kevin. You wish Bob weren't porting Logos to OSX? You don't seem to have a problem with Logos on the iPhone and iPad. Is it because you own (or will own) them?
Sorry I didn't measure up. I seldom do.
I am using the term MacAddict with all affection. In fact the term means to me anyone who uses a MacAddict on a regular basis. It is a term of affection for you Mac users.
To answer your question ...
1. Yes I am desiring the program one the platforms I use. Sorry. I have repeatedly said that I know it is selfish. But I know the toothpaste is out of the tube. They are not going to put all the resources into developing for the Mac and just quit. They are more likely to abort the iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch than the Mac at this point.
2. I am just hoping that Logos will not splinter any further. They are already going in four directions (PC, Mac, iPhone, Web). And it is affecting the quality of their customer service and the speed of their development. I am sure Bob is smarter than me and gets this so I'm not really worried. But I am still stating it.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
I don't know you personally, I was basing this on the fact that you were contributing to publications that dealt with technology. Based, on this I assumed something that wasn't true, that is not your fault that is mine.Kevin A. Purcell said:Sorry I didn't measure up. I seldom do.
When someone uses an epithet (even in affection) they are being pejorative (I feel the same way for people who use the term windoze) and short circuiting discussion. Bigotry whether racial or technological is a sign of ignorance IMHO.Kevin A. Purcell said:I am using the term MacAddict with all affection.
For those of you that may misunderstand, this post has nothing to do with technology or operating systems. It has everything to do with a statement that I read as "I wish Logos wasn't available on your platform, because it inconveniences me". I may have mis-read what you were trying to say Kevin, and if so I am more than open to correction from you.
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There is no indication that your assumption is factually correct Kevin. Each application has its own team of developers. The only limit on Logos's responsiveness is the ability to hire qualified people fast enough. Hiring more Mac developers does not slow down the Windows team.Kevin A. Purcell said:2. I am just hoping that Logos will not splinter any further. They are already going in four directions (PC, Mac, iPhone, Web). And it is affecting the quality of their customer service and the speed of their development. I am sure Bob is smarter than me and gets this so I'm not really worried. But I am still stating it.
I know you are a pastor, so maybe a ministry example will help you better understand the world of business. Imagine you have two teams planning a retreat, one for men and the other for women). Even if they are coordinating schedules and resources, this does not slow down the planning or ministry for either one. LIke all analogies, this one breaks down at various points, but the main thrust is that managing different teams to accomplished a shared goal does not necessitate that any one team underperform.
As GI Joe used to say, "And knowing is half the battle."Kevin A. Purcell said:1I have repeatedly said that I know it is selfish
There are other market considerations beyond the simplistic view of "12%" vs. "88%". Going multiplatoform opens up some new markets that, although dominated by PC, are more open because Logos 4 is on Mac.Gregory S. MacBeth said:3. The cost of portability to Mac environment comes at a cost of functionality, consistent user experience, and satisfaction. Does it really make business sense to deny 88 percent of users for 12 percent of Mac owners that can use virtualization and access the product anyway
One of the reasons I am excited to work for Logos is that Bob, Dan, Dale, etc... have the vision and foresight to see what others don't see.
Blessings
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Robert Pavich said:
I'm guessing your term "mac addict" was not meant as a slam but just as a short-hand reference to those who use macs...
In the MacWorld the MacAddicts are so fanatic they have their own MacBible...... The long term Mac users know these are publications Sola MacIntosh. [;)] For the non-Mac users: MacAddict was a magazine oriented to the insanely dedicated Mac user (what other kind is there?) I've got every issue & CD, so I oughta know.
It is almost a religion with these guys. They started out on the beaches in Southern California any time a good surf was up (daily) Then they migrated to Seattle where they sip Espresso through a straw! Some even grow goatees.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Terry Poperszky said:
I may have mis-read what you were trying to say Kevin, and if so I am more than open to correction from you.
Whoop him, Kevin! He asked for it. [6]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Terry Poperszky said:
I don't know you personallyKevin A. Purcell said:Sorry I didn't measure up. I seldom do.
He's just a lovable little fuzz ball who has a blind spot in his technological side. [:D]
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Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Hey brother, I was born and raised in Pennsylvania.. and I have only been surfing twice :-)Matthew C Jones said:It is almost a religion with these guys. They started out on the beaches in Southern California any time a good surf was up (daily) Then they migrated to Seattle where they sip Espresso through a straw! Some even grow goatee
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Joe Miller said:
and I have only been surfing twice :-)
And they will use any excuse. By the way, my son moved to PA - I still have not forgiven him [:)]
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Terry Poperszky said:
When someone uses an epithet (even in affection) they are being pejorative (I feel the same way for people who use the term windoze) and short circuiting discussion. Bigotry whether racial or technological is a sign of ignorance IMHO.
If you indeed knew me you would not be offended by my using the term. If you are, I am sorry. But now that you know it is more of a statement about me, than you, I hope you will receive it in the fun it was intended, as guys like Jack Caviness, who has met me personally and my two MacAddicted friends.
Just for fun reading for all you laughing at me and my MacAversion, here is some lovely reading. If you care to click the link I believe you will find it amusing ...
http://www.kevinpurcell.org/archives/685
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Joe Miller said:
There is no indication that your assumption is factually correct Kevin. Each application has its own team of developers. The only limit on Logos's responsiveness is the ability to hire qualified people fast enough. Hiring more Mac developers does not slow down the Windows team.Kevin A. Purcell said:2. I am just hoping that Logos will not splinter any further. They are already going in four directions (PC, Mac, iPhone, Web). And it is affecting the quality of their customer service and the speed of their development. I am sure Bob is smarter than me and gets this so I'm not really worried. But I am still stating it.
I was basing this on a post by one of the Logosites who said that some of the Windows programs had been moved over to the Mac side. Fewer windows programmers means things I truly LONG for like sentence diagramming will take longer to come to market. Can't remember who said it and too lazy at 12:13 am to find it in the forum. But that is what I was basing my comments on. It may be that I misunderstood or the person misstated it.
In case someone might be offended by the term Logosite, it simply means the people with little blue icon below their picture. Alternative description (fine people who work together to bring me this wonderful product for which I am ever grateful and appreciative to them and their families)
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
While this thread seems to have veered off from its intended purpose, (don't they all lol) I would still like to see Logos jump into remodeling notes with both feet. While I don't understand all the technical issues involved, I do know that a great number of Logos customers would like to see great improvements in this area.
--I for one would like Logos to combine notes and clippings together (code already there.?.). This would give me most of what I am looking for. Not to mention having them both separate, like they are currently, only makes things more difficult to organize... (would at the very least like to be able to easily and effectively hyperlink from one to the other, and also hyperlink with in the program)
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J. Morris said:
--I for one would like Logos to combine notes and clippings together
I understand your reasoning and could make a cogent argument for your position. However, I chose to use them differently specifically because they are separate. I'd end up doing additional work if they were combined.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
But now that you know it is more of a statement about me, than you, I hope you will receive it in the fun it was intended,
As I said Kevin, I am open to correction from you if I mis-read your statement. I stand happily corrected. [:D]
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J. Morris said:
--I for one would like Logos to combine notes and clippings together (code already there.?.). This would give me most of what I am looking for. Not to mention having them both separate, like they are currently, only makes things more difficult to organize... (would at the very least like to be able to easily and effectively hyperlink from one to the other, and also hyperlink with in the program)
I like this idea. Maybe the latter idea (hyperlinking between them) would be easiest and would preserve the current implementation for those who use them separately. If I could hyperlink between notes and clippings they would do almost everything I would like from them.
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Hi,
As the originator of this thread, I would like personally to thank Bob for taking time out of his busy schedule to reply. I've been leading a week away so have been away from my computer / email and Logos(!) for a whole week, so apologies for not conveying my thanks sooner.
When I am awake(!) and had time to consider Bob's response, and filtered out all the Mac v Windows posts in this thread, I will reply again (if needed).
Basically, I still see notes as a failing of the product, and am glad that Bob recognises that his users do too.
As I've outlined in this thread, an integrated text editor is necessary.
"Word processor" is the wrong term. If Logos implemented "Word 2010" - there would be no point. It need to be different - a Logos BibleNoteText Editor (please don't call it a word processor - tend to conjour up the wrong ideas in people's minds) (Same core features e.g. change font, highlight, tables, bulltets, pictures but have more bible study based, canonical sorting, Hebrew and Greek searching, integrated and linked to Logos - but it doesn't need Mail Merge etc!)
My initial response as to format which would answer most of the concerns of Bob is USE complete (X)HTML for as the format for notes - it's cross-format, already known and universal, easily searchable, easily extendible, small file size (text can be effiiciently compressed), and has great features. Diagrams should be in SVG format (again - cross format/ tiny file size etc).
Will post again when I give it some more thought.
James
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
Just for fun reading for all you laughing at me and my MacAversion, here is some lovely reading. If you care to click the link I believe you will find it amusing ...
We will get you yet, but I won't tell anyone [:D]
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JamesHudson said:
"Word processor" is the wrong term. If Logos implemented "Word 2010" - there would be no point. It need to be different - a Logos BibleNoteText Editor (please don't call it a word processor - tend to conjour up the wrong ideas in people's minds) (Same core features e.g. change font, highlight, tables, bulltets, pictures but have more bible study based, canonical sorting, Hebrew and Greek searching, integrated and linked to Logos - but it doesn't need Mail Merge etc!)
I like that idea. I apologize for my earlier misunderstanding of your proposal.
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So...am I to assume that the "competing, third-party" note-taking and word-processing software being mentioned, but not named, is Microsoft's OneNote and Word?
I've got to admit, I would love to have a full-functioning text-editor style note system in Logos. For now, however, I continue to discover and use work-arounds. This is tedious, to be sure, but at least it seems to work how I want it to.
I love Logos, especially version 4, and can't imagine my study without it. Praise the Lord for software developers using their God-given hardwiring to advance the kingdom!
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Jeff Loven said:
So...am I to assume that the "competing, third-party" note-taking and word-processing software being mentioned, but not named, is Microsoft's OneNote and Word?
I have occasionally posted a list of alternate products that have been mentioned by others as replacements for Logos' own notes. Most recently I did it here:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3548/35924.aspx#35924
These were originally culled from individual posts in the newsgroups and then collectively pasted into the original Logos WIKI. More recently, I copied them to these forums. All of these have been recommended by the LOGOS community at some point or another. There may be other tools available as well - perhaps others would be willing to comment. I would like to see the mind mapping tools that several users have mentioned added to this list.
I also stumbled on this list of note taking resources from a third party:
The Six Best Online Note Taking Apps You Would Love To Know
I have not used all of these resources, but the ones I do know if are well done; the others I suspect are also worth looking at.Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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Floyd Johnson said:
I also stumbled on this list of note taking resources from a third party:
The Six Best Online Note Taking Apps You Would Love To Know
I have not used all of these resources, but the ones I do know if are well done; the others I suspect are also worth looking at.Also, don't forget Evernote. I am using it more and more for personal organization. They apparently have a pretty robust API as several desktop and mobile apps have integrated it into their programs.
I think an investment in ways to integrate third party note taking solutions (online, Windows, and Mac) would bring more return in the long run.
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"I think an investment in ways to integrate third party note taking
solutions (online, Windows, and Mac) would bring more return in the long
run."I would actually agree, for both clippings and notes. The problem is there probably isn't one notes program they could get away with. I use Listpro for all my organization, because they have a Windows mobile client they synch to (wouldn't it be nice to have your clippings on your phone without being forced to use an Apple iPhone, or to install Logos on the phone itself?). I don't know how you'd go about getting to an interface that any external notes program could use.
Maybe if you could URL into the program from the outside--IE, run Logos with a URL on the command line, or API into Logos with a URL on the command line, like a web browser, and that brought up the right resource in the right place, this would be possible. Is it possible to save links into Logos 4 in another program today? I've tried a couple of different times, and I didn't see any way to.
:-)
Russ
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RussWhite said:
Maybe if you could URL into the program from the outside--IE, run Logos with a URL on the command line, or API into Logos with a URL on the command line, like a web browser, and that brought up the right resource in the right place, this would be possible. Is it possible to save links into Logos 4 in another program today? I've tried a couple of different times, and I didn't see any way to.
Ask DominicM how he did it in the thread titled NASB95 δοῦλος This is making my head hurt. http://community.logos.com/forums/p/13831/106462.aspx#106462
The post originally had a link that when clicked, fired up my Logos 4 and opened Wuersts to the entry "Servant" -- Very impressive.But that is now a Missing Link!
You might also find this thread useful for going the other direction: Hyperlinking to Non-Logos Files in Logos Notes http://community.logos.com/forums/t/13849.aspx
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:RussWhite said:
Maybe if you could URL into the program from the outside--IE, run Logos with a URL on the command line, or API into Logos with a URL on the command line, like a web browser, and that brought up the right resource in the right place, this would be possible. Is it possible to save links into Logos 4 in another program today? I've tried a couple of different times, and I didn't see any way to.
Ask DominicM how he did it in the thread titled NASB95 δοῦλος This is making my head hurt. http://community.logos.com/forums/p/13831/106462.aspx#106462
The post originally had a link that when clicked, fired up my Logos 4 and opened Wuersts to the entry "Servant" -- Very impressive.But that is now a Missing Link!
If you create a URL from within Logos by selecting Copy Location as URL from a panel dropdown menu in any resource, then you can paste that URL into a link somewhere, or into the URL bar of your browser, it will launch Logos, open that resource, and go to that location.
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Rosie Perera said:
If you create a URL from within Logos by selecting Copy Location as URL from a panel dropdown menu in any resource, then you can paste that URL into a link somewhere, or into the URL bar of your browser, it will launch Logos, open that resource, and go to that location.
Thank you Rosie!
Now OneNote can give me almost everything I want, almost.
There you go Russ!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Bob Pritchett said:
I just don't think we can afford to do this.
Bob, I am remember of something that someone once told me about not being afford something. She told me, can you afford not to do it. She was telling me that the cost of doing something is high - very high, and the cost of not doing it was even higher.
Between notes, clippings, Personal Book Builder, and Sermon File Add-In, we have several ways to input data. Question, why do we now need a sermon file add-in when our notes are now included in our searches? I would recommend to simplify the way we input our information by bring this list down to just one or two ways.
Another recommendation is: you are too concerned for cross platform support. The exact same file will look differently when it is opened by using different programs (even on the same computer). I would keep the file very simple (HTML), and let program display whatever it displays. It is completely out of your hands.
I do like the "off the shelf RTF component" solution.
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