An Open Letter to Bob Pritchett
Dear Bob (and his business advisors)
As someone who has shown more than a
passing interest in business management and product marketing, you
would realise the importance of good reviews (you even make a special
point of asking customers to do so e.g. when introducing your book
and a number of times for your bible software. In addition you often
make refer people to good reviews on your website, forums etc).
Over just the last week, I have
recently read lots of different reviews of Logos 4. Here are some
extracts:
-
“one
major lack” -
“hope
for something better” -
“We
need this functionality.” -
“I
need it now” -
“I
really need a powerful and robust note tool.” -
“But
it leaves me feeling a bit wishy washy about my time spent in Logos” -
“always
been a need.” -
“disappointed”
-
“real
area for improvement” -
“will
affect nearly every user of Logos” -
“The
lack of a comprehensive note taking system, (that includes the most
used features of a word processor), is 90% of the reason L4 is not
my "go-to" program” -
“The
desire of the 'masses' to have improved note function IS NOT going
to go away and will only continue to rise.” -
“current
incarnation of notes in L4 is totally useless to me.” -
“I've
given up any hope of getting a powerful note taking facility in
Logos” -
“As
much as I LOVE L4 - Note taking has been a HUGE disapointment.” -
“note
taking is HUGELY important to get right.” -
“so
many people complain about it!” -
“I
reached point of surrender, and am now disallusioned,” -
“I
am resigned to fact that the visionaries/designers/decision
makers must hate notes,” -
“am
sadly resigned to fact notes in program will never(excepting act of
God) be of a adequte standard” -
“always
has been Logos's achilles heel” -
“I
figured that by now with all the posts about the need they would
have changed their minds” -
“I
am not willing to give up on this issue.” -
“still
leaves me pretty disappointed.” -
“To
me, these are defects - BUGS - in the existing software and have to
be fixed.” -
“Notetaking
and reading go hand-in-hand. It seems so obvious to so many of us
that quality notetaking is important” -
“L4
notes are not even adequate, and far from full featured.” -
“Notetaking
has always been my biggest disappointment in Logos. I've always
hoped that an improvement would be coming but it never comes.” -
“I
get depressed. I want to love L4...but it just isn't
happening.” -
“..it's
a functional disaster!” -
“the
choice to limit the note-taking features of L4 is a similar
backwards step” -
“I
hear a chorus of voices saying Notes is their lifeblood.
It is true for me. I hope Bob will see this.” -
“Logos,
are you guys listening? This really would be an important
feature for many users.” -
“Logos
are you listening?” -
“What
part of this doesn't Logos understand?” -
“So
many Logos CUSTOMERS
- (Are
you listening Logos?)
- are asking - no, PLEADING
for
this feature.” -
“I
would LOVE to use L4 as my main Bible software program but I
cannot.” -
“Again,
just today...notes....AAAAAARRRRRRGGGG! Please make them
usable.” -
“I'm
sure my complaint isn't new, but the frustration in using Logos 4
with such poor notes got to me today.”
etc.
Surely the amount of different people
all making similar negative comments would make the CEO / MD of any
company start listening, especially when they realise the source of
the quotes – not from disinterested third-party external reviewers,
but from loyal, committed, dedicated customers.
Note also that all these comments are
right up-to-date (March 2010) and from just one of the many, many
forum threads on this issue
(http://community.logos.com/forums/t/5503.aspx), but it must be noted
that extremely similar comments have been made for at least the last
two product life-cycles (see the news-group archives).
The company also has a “User voice”
experiment asking for votes and suggestions for improvement from a
customer base that regularly uses the product. Of the many
suggestions, two items are consisently the highest rated.
What do a significant number of your
loyal, dedicated customers see as a failing of the product? NOTES!
Although customers appear frustrated at
your lack of response on the issue. Let's unpick a response given by
yourself on the issue a while ago.
The two parts were about:
1. Your (Bob's) personal perceived
purpose of notes
2. Your notion of not wanting to
(re-)create (what you call) “a word processor”
Taking each in turn:
1. Purpose of notes
“The problem appears to me that
Bob only sees notes as a way to attach short annotations a
la a study bible to a passage (he has said so on many
occusions). He does not appear to see them as a way to collect,
collate, and analyze data”
You have said, “Or are users
wanting to create larger documents than I envision, inside the notes
system?”.
The answer is clearly and significantly
YES YES YES. There seems to be a serious mismatch between your
/ Logos' Vision and users' wishes / desires and requests for notes.
2. The concept of a re-creating a “word
processor”
I quote myself from
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/9360/82721.aspx#82721
(yet another on the many threads concerning notes):
“About this "word-processor"
mind set - I wouldn't call OneNote a word processor etc. Think of
what we want along the lines of a document text editor.
I don't (yet!!!) see the need for Mail-Merge in Logos notes!! But the
ability to add tables, graphics, hyperlinks, annotations, cut, copy,
paste, sort, colour, bullet points etc are basic document editor
items.
Where Logos can improve on the "Word-processor"
concept and make it their own is by adding Bible/book
related features (e.g. sort in canonical order,
links to pages/images in Logos books, easy entry of Greek/Hebrew,
drag and drop a biblical reference in and have the text appear in the
note etc etc) - these are the things that Word doesn't
have. In addition it's not easy having notes in separate
Word documents as searching is a pain - if documents were intergral
to Logos then we could unleash full powerful Logos searching on the
note-documents”
FINALLY....
Let me ask – can you put into one
sentence the purpose of Logos 4 software (I assume you can).
Does it include the notion of “letting
users effectively study the Bible”? (I hope it does – in fact
if logos 4 is seen simply as a bible book library reader software
then there are lots of current items in the product which shouldn't
be there because they are soley for effective study)
I am assuming that effective study IS
one of your raison detre's. A quick review and analysis of any
book/website on studying will include a (large) section on making and
taking effective notes. Notes and study are inextricably linked.
Thus, it follows, that if a main purpose of Logos 4 is enabling
effective Bible study then effective note taking must be at
it's core.
You have recently indicated that you
have now more time and energy to move your focus onto further
development (cf “If Logos had a million dollars” thread of the
forums). The consensus of the thread seemed to be use it for
marketing. Your own loyal dedicated customers, by word of mouth,
would be good marketers if they weren't so frustrated by the lack of
effective note-taking facilities. If you did have a million dollars,
I hope you would put the development of notes as THE number one, top,
highest priority.
I know you listen to users (even if
frustratingly you don't always reply).
I hope that in this case your listening
will change the mind-set of Logos and action on this matter will
result. If it does then Logos 4 will be the ultimate one-stop
bible-study software solution – something I want it to be and I
hope you do too.
Thanks for taking your valuable time to
read and carefully consider this long letter.
Yours in Christ,
James Hudson
Comments
-
well written and effectively stated.
0 -
I'm not Bob, but I am a reviewer of Bible software.
I have one question. Can you name one Bible software program that does what you are suggesting above? I have tested and reviewed nearly all of the major Bible software available for a Windows PC. I can't think of one. Now there are a couple that let you create books inside the program or with external tools. But that is not what you are suggesting for "notes". In fact I think what you are looking for is not a notes feature but a rich, document creation tool like the Personal Book Builder, which I am sure will be along sometime this year.
Your characterization of what you say Bob thinks of as notes is exactly what I think notes should be - a place to store your observations into a personal style commentary. We need little else. I have a competing product that I use for notes and it has some of the features you suggest. But I don't use any of them. I use simple text formating, simple paragraph formatting and the hyperlink creation tool. That is it. Most will not use much more.
If you want something to do what you are suggesting within the Bible study program, then I think you will be waiting as almost NO ONE is doing this.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
"If you want something to do what you are suggesting within the Bible
study program, then I think you will be waiting as almost NO ONE is
doing this"WOW - no-one is doing this?
Even IF that is the case
(which I doubt since unfortunately I feel the need to have and 'own' nearly every Windows [and Linux] PC Bible-software available and every one - including free and open source ones as well web-based ones- is better 'at notes' than Logos and most have nearly all the features mentioned in my post - take for example full HTML features in WORDSearch notes)
THEN what a great opportunity for Logos to shine - to be a FIRST in the market - surely something Bob would 'bite' at. A great way to spend a MILLION dollars!
I love Logos (and always have since the early days), but feel upset that I have to use other software to effectively complete Bible study. I want Logos to have the USP of being the "one-stop Bible Study solution".
Thanks for taking interest enough to reply to this thread.
James
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JamesHudson said:
I know you listen to users (even if
frustratingly you don't always reply).James, I am one that has always wanted more robust notes, I even think about it when I am away from Logos. It is almost a "worry" (that is too strong a word, however). I am perplexed about the best way to deal with note taking. But I have taken notes and learned and have grown.
Your offer some very well thought out and exciting ideas. But the line I quote above is one I think is best left off. Bob is just a guy like you and me, so i don't think he is infallible, but as the head dude of a pretty major company, I think the fact that he does listen, and not only that, that he does frequently reply, is quite amazing.
Whether you meant it or not, that statement seems to devalue his interaction with us.
Having said that, I continue to hope for better notes. I love all the new wrinkles that have been added : notes in PG, EG, Clippings, etc. But it always just seems to be just tantalizingly short from what we actually need (printing, rearranging of clippings, etc).
but overall, just focusing on notes, yeah, Logos appears to be lacking. But I am pretty amazed at what functionality and power I now take for granted, and all the human ingenuity and hours behind all of that. Thank you, Logos.
But let's work on notes, too! [;)]
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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JamesHudson said:
There seems to be a serious mismatch between your / Logos' Vision and users' wishes / desires and requests for notes
Since I am not an Academic, Pastor or pursuing a degree my opinion and usage is probably not that important here. But here is my 2 cents:
I use note taking for my own benefit. It serves to remind me of my own original thoughts, results of searches & queries I have performed, and interesting tidbits I have run across that I hope to dig deeper into when time permits. I do not use notes for research papers, sermon prepartion, journalism or the like. I am hypergraphic and tend to write things down to commit to memory. I memorize them in the writing process. I used to discard the notebooks because the details were now commited to memory.
I have found third party note taking programs more than sufficient to compliment the lack of notes in Logos. The printing feature is of more importance than the note feature to me. I DO hope for the sake of all the frustration you have quoted that some adequate note features be adopted soon that will help those who need it. Logos is much more than just a reader. The search and linking capabilities are what makes Logos stand out. The extras are just that: "extras." As Kevin points out, NOBODY is doing this in Bible software. Maybe somebody should. But even if BobP adds a full fledged word processor to Logos, there will be my Asian friends who ask for a grammar checker in Chinese or Japanese to be added.
Just give me PBB in Logos 4 that will read Version 3 PBBs and I'll be delighted.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Oops I forgot to add:
Kevin A. Purcell wrote "If you want something to do what you are suggesting within the Bible
study program, then I think you will be waiting as almost NO ONE is
doing this."I'm not sure I follow your logic here - are you saying that because "ALMOST" no-one else is doing it then it's not worth requesting?
My whole point in creating the thread is that I'm jealous for Logos - wanting it to be the best and the best now and the best ever!!
Guess one of my sins is impatience!
Yours in Him,
James
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Dan DeVilder said:
James, I am one that has always wanted more robust notes, I even think about it when I am away from Logos. It is almost a "worry" (that is too strong a word, however). I am perplexed about the best way to deal with note taking. But I have taken notes and learned and have grown.
I guess you guys make much better use of Logos than I. You both seem to be thinking and producing something worth noting, searching, saving and reviewing. My main usage is reading what others have produced and Logos works just fine for that. I guess I will have to sit back and let the scholars speak here.
(BobP, Please DO give us a printing function soon. Pretty Please?!)
EDIT: I could also use a spell-checker in the forum software.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
I'm not Bob, but I am a reviewer of Bible software.
I have one question. Can you name one Bible software program that does what you are suggesting above? I have tested and reviewed nearly all of the major Bible software available for a Windows PC. I can't think of one. Now there are a couple that let you create books inside the program or with external tools. But that is not what you are suggesting for "notes". In fact I think what you are looking for is not a notes feature but a rich, document creation tool like the Personal Book Builder, which I am sure will be along sometime this year.
Your characterization of what you say Bob thinks of as notes is exactly what I think notes should be - a place to store your observations into a personal style commentary.
Thanks Kevin for your response b/cos it captures my thoughts exactly. I cannot think of any software that does what the OP is suggesting. That does not invalidate his suggestion but puts things in perspective. I hope he gets his request though.
I am of the opinion that eventually most things/features will make their way into Logos 4. The question is are we going to be patient so that the developers get it right! So many customer feature request to implement, the truth is - it takes time to get round to.
My request to Bob is take your time & PLEASE get it right before any feature is release.Thanks for Logos 4.
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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JamesHudson said:
I'm not sure I follow your logic here - are you saying that because "ALMOST" no-one else is doing it then it's not worth requesting?
Perhaps the reason "almost no one is doing this" is because almost no one sees it as a valuable feature. Sure, I would like to see improvements in notes, but I don't want Logos to waste resources to develop another word processor that would be clearly inferior to products already on the market.
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Usability aside, it sure would be neat to read a review about your favorite Bible software, and see:
"As far as taking notes, Logos is unsurpassed in Bible study software..."
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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the "“I reached point of surrender, and am now disallusioned,”" Quote is mine.
With respect to James, Logos 4 notes have come a huge step forward since I wrote this, whilst I still have issues with the RTF format, I am first to say the improvements in 4.0b are a HUGE step forward in the right direction.
Logos decision corporately to use a RTF based component for notes, is a good, sound forward thinking one for them corporately which I actually agree with, as at code level the transfer to mac will be made easier.
Please bear in mind, there was to be no import of notes into Logos 4, initially, and Logos listened, and its now in 4.0b, they do listen, and do adopt change suggestions where they see the gain.
I will always have issues but thats because I want more than RTF can provide, BUT THAT IS NOT A LOGOS PROBLEM, its my personal problem with RTF.
I have to agree with Kevin, about we get exactly what was promised - Basic notes..
I was reading in my bible today "Godliness with contentment, is great Gain", and I hope to be more contented about things in the future.
I realise I have been guilty of demanding more from Bob & Team, but after some soul searching I cant transfer my desires to become a Logos problem, its mine and mine alone.
Once again I want to say sorry to Bob & Team if I have been rude by demanding changes, and to thank you for listening to us by implementing some of the changes we have asked for
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Matthew C Jones said:
EDIT: I could also use a spell-checker in the forum software.
Use Firefox browser - http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Using+the+spell+checker
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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JamesHudson said:
the ability to add tables, graphics, hyperlinks, annotations, cut, copy, paste, sort, colour, bullet points etc are basic document editor items. Where Logos can improve on the "Word-processor" concept and make it their own is by adding Bible/book related features (e.g. sort in canonical order, links to pages/images in Logos books, easy entry of Greek/Hebrew, drag and drop a biblical reference in and have the text appear in the note etc etc) - these are the things that Word doesn't have. In addition it's not easy having notes in separate Word documents as searching is a pain - if documents were intergral to Logos then we could unleash full powerful Logos searching on the note-documents”
Kevin A. Purcell said:I have one question. Can you name one Bible software program that does what you are suggesting above?
[^o)]I hope I don't lose my star. [:|]I take all of my notes in a competitive product that does a huge majority of this.
- adds tables, graphics, hyperlinks, annotations, cut, copy, paste,
- but not sort (kind of ... see* below)
- changes color of any text
- bullet points and many other basic (RTF) document features.
- I can paste in URL's to Logos books and graphics.
- I can easily enter Greek and Hebrew (dependant on my skill).
- And they're searchable.
* It doesn't sort into canonical order, but because each note is it's own chapter and or chapter:verse file it effectively IS sorted into canonical order as soon as I run a report on the verse range.
I also can't drag and drop bible references and have the text appear.
Sorry, but I'm with James on this one. Notes needs work to be workable for me for more than an odd comment here or there.
As I see it however, notes in the program I use are "easy" because they only have to be Bible study notes. Notes in Logos are an order of magnitude harder because they have to work for Bibles, commentaries, dictionaries, monographs and whatever else. And somehow they have to work together.
I do not envy the programmers trying to figure out how to make us all happy.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Wading into the fray, I use notes within L4, but if I want a full word-processor functionality then I will use a tool designed for that purpose so I can put notes, place scripture references, and a tool that I can use even if I am not using Logos (which is highly unlikely regardless of the continuous complaints about missing features). Logos is still the best Bible Study tool in the marketplace (IMO) and I would prefer that development resources continue to be focused on responsiveness, functionality of what it does so well helping one dig deeper and grow spiritually, and not trying to recreate a tool that exists even though it isn't integrated into Logos. Does that mean notes could not have some improvements, not at all, but there are other functions that would provide us more bang for the buck that Logos invests.
Personally, I think Bob is well aware of comments both good and bad about Logos - L4 - that people are posting. "Constructive" criticism is always a good thing, but when it sinks to a gripe session that pulls quotes from various people which may or may not being taken out of context is just as bad as not following what Paul was reminding Timothy in 2 Tim 2:15. I understand the software business, and things are prioritized and as a user you are always looking for the next improvement. So with that said, I agree with Ted...
Ted Hans said:My request to Bob is take your time & PLEASE get it right before any feature is release.Thanks for Logos 4.
There are things I would like see that to me are more important than a pseudo word-processor for note taking that would be more beneficial. I trust Bob and his direction of Logos and the Logos family for their continuing efforts to provide the best Bible study tool available anywhere.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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I guess as they say in some places I don't have a dog in this hunt. If Logos can get hyperlinking to its own resources from within notes working, plus better ability to drag and reorder notes, I'll be OK. The fact is way back in 3.0 I pretty much stopped using them and went elsewhere.
So for me, more robust notes is down on the fourth tier of my interest. Getting promised features restored and real topic searching implemented are at the top of my list. Second is better code optimization (speed issues). Then imagining and creating new tools. Then robust note-taking (and maybe some other issues).
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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I guess I'll jump in on this and make a comment similar to the one I made on another thread regarding the subject being discussed here.
I have been a Logos user for a number of years. My first Logos program was Lesson Builder. I think Logos has a done a great job with all of their products and while none of them has done everything I wanted them to do, they have been as advertised and I have never been mislead regarding their capability. When L4 was released I spent a few days looking at the program features and reading various reviews on forums and other sites on the internet. When I had sufficient information regarding L4 I made the decision to purchase the program.
Once I started using it I had questions about some of the features, most of which were answered by more experienced users on the forums. When I had a problem trying to figure out how to do something, I again went to the forums and have been able to utilize the experience of other users. I had one issue that required tech support that occurred because it is software, on a computer operated by a human being (that would be me). It took a day to figure out what the problem was and in the middle of the night between Friday night and Saturday morning the tech who assisted me sent an email instructing me on a fix for my problem. I was surprised and pleased with the dedication of this Logos employee.
My point is this, It seems to me that many users made a purchase without knowing what they were buying. It also seems that even those who may have known what they were buying somehow thought the feature that is important to them would be escalated to the top of the priority list.
I ran a company for more than 20 years and my customers knew that they could count on me to deliver everything I told them I would deliver; listen to them and try to meet their future needs; and be honest about what I could and could not do. I had some prospects over the years who decided what I could provide would not meet their needs and we parted friends. I had others who developed needs and desires I could not meet and again we parted friends. I believe Logos models that philosophy.
I think, based on what I have seen with other programs and my personal experience with Logos products, that Logos has the best product available. I also think the Logos employees are a dedciated group of professionals that have bought into the vision BobP has for the company; and they represent him well. If I did not believe that I would not have invested the money I have over the years. I also recognize that others may not agreethat and my suggestion would be to find the product you do believe is best. If you cannot find one (and I doubt you can) then invest the capital to start a company, hire the talent you need to write a program, and market it. Let the consumer market decide how you've done.
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This is an interesting discussion. I use notes now in a very ephemeral way. I take notes to prepare a sermon, and after Sunday, the notes are almost forgotten. So I only take basic notes, and have no need for fonts, tables, etc.
But, if those features were available, would I learn to love them and use them? Probably not, but similar functionality as a sermon add-in, or PBB I would definitely use. So developing better WP features for user in notes, sermons or PBBs could be very useful. I'd happily pay for such an add-in.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I don't see my dog out there either ;-). When I want to take notes I use MS Word. It does everything I want and more than L4 ever could (which I think is Bob's point). I bought Logos in order to read books and it is much more important to me that the books are fully functional (e.g. have page numbers!) than that I be able to take notes. I can take notes using multiple programs but I can only read many of my books in Logos. Yesterday I wanted to look up a page reference in IVP's
Dictionary
of the Later New Testament and Its Developments. No such luck. Amazon doesn't have a searchable version either. It's not good enough to tell me that many schools have ways to cite electronic resources without page numbers. The point of a reference is so that other people can look it up. If they don't have Logos how can they do that without a page number? If I do have the page number to find the reference in Logos I have to have some text to search in order to find the context. My 2 cents worth.Tom
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Thomas Black said:
I take all of my notes in a competitive product that does a huge majority of this.
My question is, if you already have all these features with a competing product, Does Logos really need to divert programming resources to duplicate that capability? Or should Logos keep doing what only Logos can do?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:Thomas Black said:
I take all of my notes in a competitive product that does a huge majority of this.
My question is, if you already have all these features with a competing product, Does Logos really need to divert programming resources to duplicate that capability? Or should Logos keep doing what only Logos can do?
From my viewpoint, it is a cumbersome step. Logos is right at the doorstep of something pretty awesome. Just add printing, note manipulation flexibility, and fuse all that with handouts. All within the same software
Whenever I have posted in the past about having embedded (or whatever you call it) software within Logos (ie, access Word or OneNote or . . .) several regular posters will respond that they "do it just fine outside of Logos and they don't need Logos to worry about making such integration possible, thank you" let alone do they seem to believe that better Notes within Logos program itself is needed. But when i survey the people that say that, most seem to be current or ex-programmers, people with Logos stars under their names, or whatever: they are experts in the tech environment. Their use of multi-applications at once is no big deal to them. They design Wiki pages and paste links so the rest of us have a clue.
But I am not one of those people. I have a little bit of aptitude, but I am no expert. Monkeying around with Word, pasting links here and there, all that is very cumbersome for me.
Oh--and the other poeple that don't seem to mind working in Word/OneNote etc, several of them have multiple monitors. That would make working across several applications more enjoyable. I don't have multiple monitors yet. I am just thrilled I have a decent laptop
The point is, the average Joe, as well as the guy who makes lots of notes and handouts out of his bible study, could stand for some better, more robust notes and clippings features. In the very least, print and sorting capability.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Well I for one want "one stop shopping"- whether a sermon builder add-in or PBB- but I use notes "all the time" for more than just little jots of info- I build sermons and studies within notes tied to the passages I am studying.
So I would greatly appreciate a tool within L4 that is more flexible.
I am like Dan D.- I'm no computer jock- so working with 10 programs to get one result can be frustrating.
My 2 cents worth, send me a bill if I went over [:D]
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
exactly what I think notes should be - a place to store your observations into a personal style commentary.
Where I disagree with you is that my observations are usually in tables or graphic form. If you have followed any of the note-taking URL's I have posted over time, you would know this is not unusual. The popular high-lighting and diagramming tools are nothing more that subtypes of notes. Templates and graphic organizers are firmly entrenched in the education system and the Bible study methodology - I only have to pick up my favorite commentaries to find examples. I do not want to use another product and loose the search and link capabilities of Logos. I do not mind having to do a cut and paste from specialized software.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
Since I am not an Academic, Pastor or pursuing a degree my opinion and usage is probably not that important here.
To me it is.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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TomReynolds said:
When I want to take notes I use MS Word. It does everything I want and more than L4 ever could (which I think is Bob's point).
I use Logos specifically for notes - notes in the form of comments and questions that can be pieced together to create Bible study lessons. In L3 my major frustration was that I could not link a note to multiple passages. In L4 my major frustration is that my most frequent note formats - templates, tables and diagrams - are no longer functional.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dan DeVilder said:
Oh--and the other poeple that don't seem to mind working in Word/OneNote etc, several of them have multiple monitors. That would make working across several applications more enjoyable
OK, You got me.
I've used multi-display setups and I prefer to install over a network. I think the BeBox was a marvelous idea and my duplex laser printer is still new in the box over a year since purchased.... I welcome any enhancements BobP wants to add to Logos. I just hope PBB gets priority over a word processor.
EDIT: It occured to me, I used to use a half-dozen different apps to achieve what I now have in Microsoft Office 2007 Ultimate. I love the toolbar continuity and only had to learn one program. All the old apps are now shelved and forgotten. If Logos could pull off that level of quality in notes I would be happy to leave OneNote to other projects.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Thomas Black said:
Sorry, but I'm with James on this one. Notes needs work to be workable for me for more than an odd comment here or there.
I am with Thomas & James on this one also... though maybe I would have sugar coated it a bit. Also, as has already been said. A lot of the quotes are dated to pre-4.0b, yet I would say that notes still has a way to go to fit my tastes. [^o)]
I don't uses notes in L4 at all anymore. Check that I have one note.
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-->Permit me, if you will, to answer the
comments that Logos should not “duplicate” wordprocessors such
as:-
“I have a competing product
that I use for notes” -
“if I want a full
word-processor functionality then I will use a tool designed
for that purpose” -
“I have found third party
note taking programs more than sufficient to compliment the lack of
notes in Logos” -
“I don't want Logos to waste
resources to develop another word processor that would be clearly
inferior to products already on the market” -
“When I want to take notes I
use MS Word. It does everything I want and more than L4 ever could”
I can answer this alliteratively with
two 'I's – Inefficiency and Inability1. Inefficiency
There is an inherent inefficiency with
using two (or more) programs to do the job of one in terms of-
-
workflow (disrupted)
-
system resources (with two
resource-hungry programs) -
time / key presses (e.g. ALT-Tab
etc) -
inconsistent “look n feel”
which can distract the brain even for a micro-second (OK – that
one is a bit far-fetched, but the others are significant!)
-
2. Inability
This is why I put “duplicated” in
quotes above. Logos needs not to duplicate Word-processors etc. but
to mould and tailor the concept specifically to bible study – that
would make it unique. Believe it or not there are some things which
you cannot (easily) do from within third-party word-processors
(without macros etc)! These make having a built in note-editor in
Logos essential:-
-
search from within Logos
[for searches to include notes you would need to search within
logos and within explorer (for multi- document notes) or
within Word (if all your notes are in a single document)] -
hyperlink effectively
between other notes and locations within Logos books -
sort canonically
(according to books of bible)
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For those having to rely on 3rd-party
programs – you could be missing out!James
PS
Matthew: "if you already have all
these features with a competing product, Does Logos really need to
divert programming resources to duplicate that capability"By this argument there are lots of
features Logos shouldn't dupilcate (I have other products that can
print, I have other products that can search and read ebooks - does
that mean Logos is redundant?).It's not a matter of "diverting" resources - it's a matter of employing them effectively to make the "all-in-one bible study solution".
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Matthew C Jones said:Dan DeVilder said:
Oh--and the other poeple that don't seem to mind working in Word/OneNote etc, several of them have multiple monitors. That would make working across several applications more enjoyable
OK, You got me.
I've used multi-display setups and I prefer to install over a network. I think the BeBox was a marvelous idea and my duplex laser printer is still new in the box over a year since purchased.... I welcome any enhancements BobP wants to add to Logos. I just hope PBB gets priority over a word processor.
EDIT: It occured to me, I used to use a half-dozen different apps to achieve what I now have in Microsoft Office 2007 Ultimate. I love the toolbar continuity and only had to learn one program. All the old apps are now shelved and forgotten. If Logos could pull off that level of quality in notes I would be happy to leave OneNote to other projects.
BeBox? Is that pig-Latin? I have no clue--see, this is what I am talking about, lol. Like another language. I admire and envy (in a Christian way . . . ) for all your ability.
But I would agree with you. PBB should be a priority. If I had resources in PBB that i could not use in L4, I would be pretty miffed, even if I was happy about a lot of other L4 things.
I am liking Office more and more. You really need to download 2010 beta. Even cooler.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Matthew C Jones said:Thomas Black said:
I take all of my notes in a competitive product that does a huge majority of this.
My question is, if you already have all these features with a competing product, Does Logos really need to divert programming resources to duplicate that capability? Or should Logos keep doing what only Logos can do?
My statement was to demonstrate that it is being mostly done, but that Logos, I believe can do it better. Because the next step should be Logos' step and not a competitor. I'm fully in favor of Logos becoming the one stop shop for all of these things and more. I would not have invested the thousands of dollars I have into Logos, nor advertised for them, nor become and MVP if I did not believe that Logos is the best overall Bible software on the market.
I want Logos to read and report on my notes as well as on my word studies, my commentaries my sermons and you name whatever comes next. In short, I want what all of you want - Logos to just keep improving and becoming even better than it already is. For me, notes is the next frontier.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Fred Chapman said:
My point is this, It seems to me that many users made a purchase without knowing what they were buying. It also seems that even those who may have known what they were buying somehow thought the feature that is important to them would be escalated to the top of the priority list.
For me, I bought a program that was billed as incomplete, but had the committment of the company to finish and polish it while I used it. I trust Logos, and I really loved the direction they were heading (for multiple reasons) with L4--it has rocked my world, much more so than L3 ever did. I've had some index/BSOD woes (fixed by the great comrades I've found on this forum) and have a pile of carcasses laying around from all the chickens I've sacrificed trying to structure what I've gleaned from Logos-based resources into material I can print / present to my Sunday school class. I'm concerned that the Mac is about to receive more programmer time, but understand there is a user community there that also deserves some attention.
The interesting part is whether my expectation of what "complete" should be will align with where Logos draws the line. I can't imagine that they will continue rolling out new capabilities forever...experience has shown me that I'll be seeing a new engine in a few years & will have to buy into that ... ouch ... to get the next new neat capabilities. I'd certainly like to see better notes capability, even if that only means something like tight integration with OneNote (or suitable sub).
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Dan DeVilder said:
But when i survey the people that say that, most seem to be current or ex-programmers, people with Logos stars under their names, or whatever: they are experts in the tech environment. Their use of multi-applications at once is no big deal to them. They design Wiki pages and paste links so the rest of us have a clue.
This really made things clear for me Dan. I've largely viewed all the complaints about lack of note capability as "whining"...BUT I'm one of those tech guys. I own and operate my own IT business, I have two monitors (and wouldn't mind having a third), It is normal for me to have 5 firefox windows open with 10-15 tabs each, and when I do my Bible study, I open Logos, e-sword, OneNote, FireFox and the current revision of the ISV Bible in Word one right after the other and happily bounce back and forth between the 5 programs without thinking anything of it. After your comment though, I can certainly understand your point about the "average Joe" who may not be as comfortable or adept at using multiple programs to accomplish a single task. Thanks for the insight. [:)]
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"when I do my Bible study, I open Logos, e-sword, OneNote, FireFox and
the current revision of the ISV Bible in Word one right after the other
and happily bounce back and forth between the 5 programs"Me too (only 15 tabs in Firefox? Is that all!!!!). But imagine the future....what it could be like when you only have to open one program and haven't conditioned yourself to accept work-arounds! How much smoother your system would be, not to merntion the other benefits of integration - with features in a application designed SPECIFICALLY for Bible study.
Oh and I have thought of two more 'I's following on from my previous post about the down side of having to use a third-party word-processor or note-taking app:
3. Inconvenience
Modern tech is suposed to make bible study easier and hassle-free (why shoould I need to load up multiple progs and do multiple searches - at least 2: one in Logos and one in my word processor?, etc)
4. Inappropriate expectations
Is it right for a company to expect users to buy expensive third-party products to properly do one of the tasks they should be providing? Or high-tech high-memory multi-monitor systems capable of smoothly handling multi-tasking (remember that some users are missionaries or bible-translators on extremely low incomes where a cheap laptop is all they can afford and no way MS Office AND logos 4)
Question for developers - I guarantee they don't use a word-processor like MS Word to write their code! It would be strange if the maker of an IDE expected users to do that simply because they didn't want to duplicate the tasks of "cut n paste", "indentation", "word-completion". No! IDEs have all these standard features plus additional ones designed specifically for the task. (I do know of some professional hard-core programmers who use notepad (or equivalent) to program, but then again I knew people 20 years ago who programmed in raw hexadecimal!! Doesn't mean it's the correct way to do things!)
Why should users have to resort to work-arounds and other software.
Thanks
James
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JamesHudson said:
Me too (only 15 tabs in Firefox? Is that all!!!!). But imagine the future....what it could be like when you only have to open one program and haven't conditioned yourself to accept work-arounds! How much smoother your system would be, not to merntion the other benefits of integration - with features in a application designed SPECIFICALLY for Bible study.
In all of this, I wonder about the cost vs. payoff from a Logos Corporate standpoint. Might that be a reason they don't want more robust notes? Just a question, not a rebuttal.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Ronald S Keyston Jr said:Dan DeVilder said:
But when i survey the people that say that, most seem to be current or ex-programmers, people with Logos stars under their names, or whatever: they are experts in the tech environment. Their use of multi-applications at once is no big deal to them. They design Wiki pages and paste links so the rest of us have a clue.
This really made things clear for me Dan. I've largely viewed all the complaints about lack of note capability as "whining"...BUT I'm one of those tech guys. I own and operate my own IT business, I have two monitors (and wouldn't mind having a third), It is normal for me to have 5 firefox windows open with 10-15 tabs each, and when I do my Bible study, I open Logos, e-sword, OneNote, FireFox and the current revision of the ISV Bible in Word one right after the other and happily bounce back and forth between the 5 programs without thinking anything of it. After your comment though, I can certainly understand your point about the "average Joe" who may not be as comfortable or adept at using multiple programs to accomplish a single task. Thanks for the insight.
Part of me would like to learn to be more proficient using alt+tab (I use it a bit, but it is not second nature to figure how to make it efficient) and other features. And I guess I am not really opposed to using outside software. I just don't think it is very easy. I DO think having multiple monitors would be a good solution. I hope to get multiple monitors. It won't be for quite a while, nor can we expect the normal user to. Nor is it always feasible, ie, on the road, working on laptop, etc.
What would help, in lieu of "more robust notes", are ways to send information like:
- selected portions of books/bibles to outside applications
- currently we have CBV, which kind of like. But it is only good for Bibles. And it avoids 2 pieces of software several users use frequently and powerfully for Bible study: OneNote, and Mindmanager.
- I am talking about a one step: copy/paste feature. Not copy, switch program, find place, paste.
- send my notes, clippings, etc straight to Word, Powerpoint, OneNote, Mindmanager, etc. Like their own version of CBV.
- this is a win-win, imo: Logos doesn't need to do a lot more to notes/clippings--except a few important tweaks and manageability, we get to keep and make notes within Logos, and all the benefits (searchability, etc) that that represents, AND, fairly easily, we get to export (or "send", which might be the more accurate term, and more helpful function) that info to other powerful programs.
What i don't like about having to make OneNote, Word, or whatever (let along Mindmanager with its bigger required monitor space needs) the primary note taking function is the amount of monitor realestate they require. I already feel my 17 inch monitor is too small for Logos itself (on my laptop), let alone having to share it with another program. OneNote docks to the side, which I have used, but that also limits my ability to move around in OneNote and creates other quirky problems. And doing what some suggest: pinning OneNote/Word over Logos, that works a bit, but again, it takes up space.
It is important to be able to see Logos and my notes at the same time. Not having to switch back and forth and remember what I was just looking at and pondering.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0 - selected portions of books/bibles to outside applications
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JamesHudson said:
Dear Bob (and his business advisors)
Well, I think it might have been better to have sent this letter to Bob directly. If it were me, I wouldn't answer an open personal letter placed on a public forum. If you dont have his email, post it. I think that would be the better way to handle such an issue.
I feels as if you are trying to bait Bob and, quite frankly, that is unfair. Everyone has the right to be annoyed and frustrated. However, when you post a letter like this you do very little to get any answer you want. It generates discussion but that is all.
I for one would say that Logos has been very open and transparent in its dealings with its customers. You don't own Logos (the company) Bob does and at the end of the day if we don't like it we can go eslewhere. Having said that, I have been more than happy (overall) with Logos and their support.
Please consider a better way.
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I feel like I am missing out. Never used notes at all, even in V3. Maybe that is why I love V4 so much. I don't miss what I don't use.
I don't understand what all the fuss is about notes. I guess I just study different.
Jerry
Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage
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Jerry Bush said:
I feel like I am missing out. Never used notes at all, even in V3. Maybe that is why I love V4 so much. I don't miss what I don't use.
I don't understand what all the fuss is about notes. I guess I just study different.
Jerry
a little S. Illinois shout out, Jerry! Home of the white squirrels! Been there a few times, my mother in law was raised there. My wife is from Mt. Carmel. I grew up as a pk further south, in Hurst (can you locate it??).
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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MarkStevens said:
I feels as if you are trying to bait Bob and, quite frankly, that is unfair. Everyone has the right to be annoyed and frustrated. However, when you post a letter like this you do very little to get any answer you want. It generates discussion but that is all
[Y]
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Dan DeVilder said:
In all of this, I wonder about the cost vs. payoff from a Logos Corporate standpoint. Might that be a reason they don't want more robust notes? Just a question, not a rebuttal.
This is a excellent point, although I do have one concern with this philosophy.
In the rapidly changing world of software, there is more than a good chance that within the next year or so, someone is going to come up with a new Bible program that everyone in the geek world has to have.
And then you see conversations online like "You're still using Logos to do that? How come you don't use "XYZ" program with all the features?" answered by "This resource is only available in Logos, so I have to use it for that..."
With this possibility in mind, the question that I would be asking myself is:
Is it a good investment of resources in developing features for 10% (or less) of the users base, that does 80% (or more) of the online talking about the software?
Just a thought...
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Dan DeVilder said:
Part of me would like to learn to be more proficient using alt+tab (I use it a bit, but it is not second nature to figure how to make it efficient) and other features. And I guess I am not really opposed to using outside software. I just don't think it is very easy.
Using multiple applications at once and copying/sharing data between them is one of the main advantages of a multi-tasking operating system like Windows. Alt+Tab functionality for switching between them has been improved in Vista (and Windows 7) over XP. In XP you used to have to hold down the Alt key and hit Tab several times to get to the application you were trying to switch to, and depending on how recently that other app had been on top, it could take quite a number of keystrokes to get back there. But as of Vista, you can now do Alt+Tab and then holding down the Alt key, click on the icon of the application you want to go back to and return there immediately. Of course you've always been able to jump direction to an application by clicking its icon in the taskbar down at the bottom of the screen, but sometimes (when you have lots of apps open at once) that taskbar gets full and the names of the apps are truncated, but with Alt+Tab you get to see the full name of each app (and the name of the document it has open if it's a document-based app) as you tab to it.
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JamesHudson said:
(only 15 tabs in Firefox? Is that all!!!!)
That's 10-15 tabs x 5 windows...so somewhere between 50 and 75 tabs total [:P]
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Paul Golder said:
In the rapidly changing world of software, there is more than a good chance that within the next year or so, someone is going to come up with a new Bible program that everyone in the geek world has to have.
Being somewhat of a geek myself, I own 90%+ of Bible software published in English (Mac, PC.) Geeks buy stuff just for the sake of buying stuff. The true custopmer base that will keep driving Logos development are the users who really USE the software to it's limits. So if notes, PBBs and printing are things that segment desires, it will eventually be added. The "bells & whistles" geeks will just find another program to brew their coffee for them.
Paul Golder said:Is it a good investment of resources in developing features for 10% (or less) of the users base, that does 80% (or more) of the online talking about the software?
Huh?? [:^)] I don't know. Does that 10% have orders placed for 80% of the Pre-Pub page?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
geeks will just find another program to
brew their coffee for them.
I would guess yes. I'm thinking that if the bulk of the Logos user base were ordering Pre-Pubs, there would be a majority listed as "under development" instead of "Gathering Interest"Matthew C Jones said:Huh?? Huh? I don't know. Does that 10% have orders placed for 80% of the Pre-Pub page?
I'm only saying that the most vocal portion of the user base should be constantly kept in mind when deciding what features to add or not.After all the first place the "non-geek" world looks to, when making a technology purchase, is what all the geeks are saying / using.
I can't even remember all the times someone has asked my the best way to "brew their coffee" so-to-speak...[:)]
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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While I am right that no other Bible study application does what the original poster wants, there is one that comes very close. Logos may want to remove this, but it is Bibleworks. However, that program is so inferior in the area of library. It is not a library tool but a very advanced tool for studying the Bible's original languages and for doing exegetical study. It has one commentary that I can think of, Matthew Henry, which is of limited value to me. I use Logos for most study and Bibleworks for keeping notes and most searching of the Bible itself. I keep notes in Bibleworks because it has the best notes feature. They are simple, fast, and can do a lot if you want all of that. Logos does one thing BW does not. Bible references are automatically hyperlinks. If Logos was as fast as BW notes, and had as much formatting options as BW, it would be the most useful for all stages of Bible study.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
AMEN!!!!!!!
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
While I am right that no other Bible study application does what the original poster wants, there is one that comes very close
Sorry to thow a spanner in, but theres at least two..
this is a screen shot from another one.. but I will stick to rules and not name it here, but its one of the free ones..
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Paul Golder said:
Is it a good investment of resources in developing features for 10% (or less) of the users base, that does 80% (or more) of the online talking about the software?
What I don't know is, for example, the percentage of users who used print or parallel resources or ... The question, in my mind, is not "what percentage use this" but "how dependent are other features on this feature for common workflow"
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
Using multiple applications at once and copying/sharing data between them is one of the main advantages of a multi-tasking operating system like Windows.
True, but the issue is functionality and work-flow. There are functions that you expect to switch applications for, there are functions that one expects to be supported within the application. Loosing features present in L3 goes against expectations; the added search capabilities increase expectations that one can create (or copy & paste) what the search now supports.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Loosing = to unbind or release, etc.
Losing = misplacing or not being able to find something.
Sorry, but this error has popped up in the forums several times now.0 -
Yup, I recognize spelling errors when I hand write them but everything looks great once it's typed - no matter how ridiculous.[:$]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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