GK101 Introduction to Biblical Greek John D. Schwandt
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Mounce's appears to be more in depth
Keith Pang, PhD Check out my blog @ https://keithkpang.wixsite.com/magnifyingjesus
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Thanks for the question about how this program (Mobile Ed course and textbook) compares with Zondervan’s video lectures and books for Greek. It is difficult for me to compare them too deeply since there isn’t much information on the Zondervan course description pages and a number of elements in the Mobile Ed course and text are still in development. However, I do own a copy of Mounce’s text and can use that in this initial comparison.
Various points for comparison:
Package-
- The Mobile Ed Certificate Program has everything included
- It is difficult to tell if you have to purchase both the text book and the workbook separately in the Zondervan program. I would love for someone to verify this for me. If it is included how is it included? Is it an e-book, or a hardcopy? Does the student own it or rent it?
Access-
- You can own Mobile Ed courses and have them always available for reference and refreshers.
- The Zondervan courses are only available on subscription (currently 12 months).
Content (amount of grammar covered)-
- Both grammars and courses cover the standard amount of material expected in a typical seminary or university Greek course.
- There may be slight differences in terms of emphasis or treatment of some parts of the the grammar. Typically, the parts of grammar that are introduced early in a textbook get more explanation than those at the end of a text since the later content can build upon the earlier teaching.
- The Mobile Ed Program and textbook provides a more comprehensive treatment of third declension forms. This is the tradition of older school approaches like Machen and Nunn.
- Mounce probably has a longer treatment on perfect stem forms. From a couple decades of use, he also added supplemental content such as exegetical insights from contributors.
Approach-
- Both grammars use a diachronic approach with the aim to reduce rote memorization. This is one of the many reasons Bill and I get along. J
- Mounce limits the aim for his text to teach only how to translate into English (one directional understanding.) His text doesn’t have regular composition exercises.
- The Mobile Ed course and text aims to teach both how to translate into English and how to compose in Greek (bidirectional understanding.) Students or teachers can choose to ignore the composition exercises and memorizing vocabulary in both directions, but the course and text provide this type of instruction for students who want to take their understanding to that depth.
- Mounce’s book is structured more on a reference grammar model and the Mobile Ed course follows Nunn’s classroom primer model. The difference is that reference grammar models tend to provide everything they are going to say about an area of grammar and then move on to the next related area of grammar. That is why Mounce doesn’t introduce verbs until nearly halfway through his program. Another marker of this reference book approach is the topic numbering of paragraphs.
- The classroom primer approach works in waves through a varied amount of grammatical topics. So the Mobile Ed course presents a basic treatment of verbs in the third lesson and then moves onto some noun forms. Then goes back and adds more detail and depth as new topics are covered. This allows students to start using the language faster and is similar to an approach for learning modern languages.
Length-
- The Mobile Ed course has a total of 15 hours of video but far more individual video segments (well over 100) than the Zondervan course. So the video content is concise and focused on the content of nearly every lesson in the textbook. The textbook isn’t published yet so I can’t compare its length to Mounce’s. Another aspect that can’t be compared yet is the amount of content in links to other books in the Logos library system. This is really what makes Mobile Ed different than all other programs. The course isn’t tied to just one book or author’s opinion. It is connected to library. Mounce’s text hardly has any footnotes or references to classic works form other authors. Also I’m looking forward to the Faihtlife Group integration with this course where I can interact with conversations within the transcript using community notes. Those conversations will accessible to anyone working through the course and will grow with future students. So the length of the content of this course will be somewhat dynamic.
- The Zondervan course is two separate 16 hour programs where Mounce covers material from groups of lessons in each one-hour unit. I haven’t purchased it so I can’t comment on how concise and focused the lectures are.
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Thanks John, that answers a lot for me. I look forward to having it by the end of the year. [;)]
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Thanks John for the explanation. Just need a little help with what you wrote here:
John Schwandt said:The Zondervan courses are only available on subscription (currently 12 months).
According to this link, there is no hint that the course is available only by subscription. it seems it is available for purchase. Is there a mistake?
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Mark said:
Thanks John for the explanation. Just need a little help with what you wrote here:
John Schwandt said:The Zondervan courses are only available on subscription (currently 12 months).
According to this link, there is no hint that the course is available only by subscription. it seems it is available for purchase. Is there a mistake?
https://courses.zondervanacademic.com/bibical-languages/basics-of-biblical-greek-1
Here is the link.
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But is the video course also not offered as a download to keep here:
https://www.logos.com/product/34026/zondervan-biblical-languages-video-lectures ?
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Yes, the exact same course.
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Mark said:
But is the video course also not offered as a download to keep here:
https://www.logos.com/product/34026/zondervan-biblical-languages-video-lectures ?
It is, but the comparison John was making above related to certificate programs ( Zondervan vs Logos). Logos sells the BBG and BBH sets, but not as a program of study.
Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College0 -
I understand that now. But I did not understand that initially:
Michael McLane said:John, how would you compare the comprehensiveness of your course the Mounce's BBG and the video lectures by Zondervan on Logos?
It seems clear to me now. Thanks all. It is possible to purchase the videos in logos and if you have the books in logos, the certificate program (without the certificate most likely) is available in logos.
I appreciate John's responses. Happy with what has been delivered so far and looking forward to the rest
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John Schwandt said:
No worries.
You are correct. The current 40% discount (or more through dynamic pricing if you own the Alphabet Tutor interactive through base package ownership) will continue on the two certificate bundles until all of the elements ship. That is actually the reason you currently see a larger discount than 20% on those products even with only one product in your cart during the back to school promotion.
I'm sorry if this was asked but I wanted to double check. This course will remain 40% off until it ships? It lists a back to school discount but I know that ends soon
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Yes. The discount will remain until it ships.
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John Schwandt said:
Yes. The discount will remain until it ships.
Thank you Mr Schwandt. I am really thinking hard about buying this course but I don't know any Greek at all. Will this course be beneficial to me or is it too advanced?
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I know of no other course out there that provides so many small steps at the beginning of the course to help a student with no other background in any foreign language to learn Greek. The alphabet course (part of the bundled program) is an amazing way to build a solid foundation. Then you can start working through Greek grammar. The program teaches English grammar along the way so you don't have to be an English expert either.
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John Schwandt said:
I know of no other course out there that provides so many small steps at the beginning of the course to help a student with no other background in any foreign language to learn Greek. The alphabet course (part of the bundled program) is an amazing way to build a solid foundation. Then you can start working through Greek grammar. The program teaches English grammar along the way so you don't have to be an English expert either.
Thank you again for your time Mr Schwandt. I've always wanted to learn Greek so it seems this will be the best way to do it! I did think of one additional question though. In looking at the product page, it seems to me that the only thing that hasn't shipped yet is the GK101 videos... is that correct? The book and alphabet tutors are available and the videos will ship when done? Can I still start the course without the videos or would it be better to wait for the videos?
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GK101 (the video course, with activity resource) and the textbook are both in production. You can start with the alphabet course. I suggest allowing yourself plenty of time with that. It really helps to be very familiar with the alphabet before you really start digging into grammar.
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Hi John, will the Greek grammar course be released in sections going forward so we can start on them...or will we need to wait for it to be completed/released in full.
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I'm unable to start the koine version in the courses tool but I am able to start the erasmian version. Anyone else having this issue?
I posted photos here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/148298.aspx
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Michael McLane said:
Thanks John, I did not mean to sound disgruntled, just a little disappointed. However, you did a kind job of explaining things.
A point of clarification, though. Are you saying that the current discounts, including the Back-to-School discount will remain valid until the whole package has shipped?
For instance, The Biblical Languages: Foundational Certificate Program is dynamically priced, with the Back-to-School discount, at $234.10. The Back-to-School part of that discounted price is $156.06 of the total discounted price. If I wait a couple of months to purchase, then I will not lose that discount?
Thanks for the clarification.
Somehow I missed this product till this morning. Michael, the discounted price for the Biblical Languages: Foundational Certificate Program bundle is about half what I'm seeing for both the Hebrew and Greek. Are you referring only to the Greek portion of this?
This looks like a good way to regain a lot of what I've lost with the languages.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Well--I'm in--just ordered the language bundle, though it may be a year or so before I touch the Hebrew course.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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John Schwandt said:
I'm pushing to see all of the parts shipped by the end of the year.
John, is this still on track to be released, in total, by the end of the year. I would like to purchase it but do not want my money to be tied up in something that I cannot use in full for the next six months.
Thanks
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Michael McLane said:
John, is this still on track to be released, in total, by the end of the year. I would like to purchase it but do not want my money to be tied up in something that I cannot use in full for the next six months.
Yes, we are planning on releasing it before the end of the year.
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Great. Thanks for the quick reply.
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Miles Custis said:
Yes, we are planning on releasing it before the end of the year.
Any update on this?
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Hello?
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Mark said:
Any update on this?
We're finalizing the course now and still plan to release it by the end of the year. It will be close to the end of the year though.
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I believe we are still on track for shipping it this year. Last chance messaging for people to get the pre-order discount should be going out. [:)]
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Thanks
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John, what is your recommended time frame for completing the course for best results? One video segment each day during the week at about the same time of day (treat it like a physical classroom setting), or every other day during the week with a day off for homework, or once per week? What do you suggest is typically best for learning and retention? My schedule has flexibility and I want to prioritize my language learning to fit success. Do you suggest one language at a time, and if so, is it best to start with Greek or Hebrew, or is that a personal preference? Are you planning on an Advanced course in the future to supplement this course? Thanks!
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Hi Scott,
There is a lot packed into this course so people with different learning goals and styles can use it in ways that suit them. I’m very pleased that there is a heavy dose of teaching on composition in the course. Most first-year seminary courses (and textbooks) today do not include many composition exercises in their education. So, a person who wants to go that far and surpass what is often taught can do that. Others can trim that part of the course off. Still others can take even a more abbreviated approach. The underlying principle for learning nearly anything is some system of spaced review. Some people need to work on learning a language every day to gain ground. Others can learn just as well or sometimes better with more spacing between study times.
Once you determine your learning objective and get a feel for your natural talent, the best pattern for you to learn will become apparent. I would caution you not to rush things for whatever level of competency you are pursuing. Give yourself ample time to work on the exercises while continuing to review appropriate brief lectures and exercise examples. You will also want to give yourself time to review vocabulary daily. The speed that you can learn new vocabulary may help guide your pace. You don’t want to be in a situation where you must be looking up every word you see. If you feel this start to happen, go back a few chapters for review and work through exercises again or work through them backwards (i.e.., you can take the composition answer key and translate that if you need more exercises.)
I do suggest one language at a time. I don’t think it really matters which language you start with. I would choose the one that you think you will be using more frequently so you can stay up with it as you learn the second one. We are planning on producing advanced or reading level courses.
I’ll look forward to you joining the course’s Faithlife group and interacting with you there. I hope you will consider writing community notes within the group, so many people can be encouraged and join in the learning experience with us.
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