Logos Now and Faithlife Connect: The Why

Bob, You're a strong and courageous leader and I think you have demonstrated you have learned from your most recent mistake. I would like to see you reduce the time it takes to add new books and get the books and resources that have been widely requested e.g. Fire Bible, Baylor Handbooks, NET Bible 2nd Ed, Carta, etc.

[quote]Faithlife TV is designed to support churches in ways you'll see rolling out this year. Churches can use it as a host for their live streaming, so invalid / traveling / sick congregants can watch the live stream on their smart TV in their living room, instead of just in a browser window on a laptop. Already you can record a service with Proclaim, and the audio will be turned into a video with your syncronized slides, and made available for viewing through Faithlife TV.

That I like. My small church is mostly the elderly. Would love to have a way to reach them when they can't make it in.

Bob, I am apologize for my initial reaction.  I trust you will learn from this and do a better job of communicating the next big change that comes down the pike.

Thankful for Bob Pritchett's => Announcement: Logos Now to continue at same price (with new name) that communicates better [:D]

Keep Smiling [:)]

Does anyone want to hear it?

Nathan, the Minimalist.  Of course I want to hear what you have to say!!!!! 

I'll probably post it this weekend or next week. I've found a few ways to make it even simpler (but not any shorter in explanation). :-) 

I'll be glad to post it though so that Faithlife can read it as they plan for Logos 8.

Hi Mike! Was just stumbling through the forum and noticed your post about Wesley's Works. Unless you're talking about another set Logos does sell a 22 vol set of John Wesley's Works. Maybe that's not the set you want- just thought I'd mention it.

jim s.

(For what it's worth, we've talked with many churches that have tried big, secular solutions -- streaming video via YouTube, hosting sermon videos on YouTube or other services, etc. There are lots of problems working with organizations that don't specialize in churches: hostile people flag videos for objectionable content (when it's just the gospel they find objectionable), automatic copyright monitoring bots flag worship services as having unauthorized music because there's no way for churches to tell YouTube they have a streaming license for broadcasting services, etc.)

I have a love/hate relationship with YouTube. Mostly hate. For example: I hate when I go to show an appropriate clip to teens and have inappropriate content either 1) shown as a link on the side OR 2) autoplayed afterwards. FLTV sounds like it has some potential!

It was a lot easier when Microsoft Windows was the only game in town. :-)

Ahem.  Spoken like a true, former MSFT employee. That was NEVER the case Bob. [:P]

I'm wondering...

Back when this originally happened, Logos Now was discontinued. Verbum Now wasn't.

What if the REAL reason for this was the marketing teams had secret plans to bring non-Catholics back into the Catholic church by having us all switch to Verbum Now? Maybe a secret plan to bring everyone back into the mother church? ;-)

As a recent purchaser, who had considered the option of LN, I would have to argue that this not only undermines my willingness to "subscribe"; but also makes me question whether I did the right thing in ordering a base package at all.  I would expect that, like me, most users of the Logos system are into a product that allows one to perform technical exegesis, better, faster, and more thoroughly. 

I would also like to say, many of the extras (T.V., ebooks, ...), really make me wonder at whether or not there needs to be a streamlining of development.  I would be willing (and consider) subscribing to something that gives the ability to do better, smarter, and faster technical work, and perhaps improved datasets or discounts.  But, I am also a Logos user for the sake of Logos, not of T.V., groups, or web-apps.

The point of this is to say, I would wonder if many of the user base really has a need or even a desire for many of the things that Faithlife offers. (If I wanted church media, I could probably get a better, more professional, and more useful set of stuff from Sharefaith -- with more usefulness, particularly to the kind of church I attend and am most likely to attend and/or lead). I have always understood Logos to be a research system focused in Bible study and theological research (the "package expert" guys sure push it as that kind of a product!) .  I would expect that the best way to add value -- and spend the man-hours involved in programming -- would be to focus the majority of the work on that aim and end.  

Further, as far as the features are concerned, the 'great new features every six weeks is something I've never heard: I have most certainly missed that memo (and/or the hype).  I studied programming as part of my undergraduate degree, so I have an idea what programming is like -- granted nothing as major as Logos.  And, from this standpoint, things like Vyrso scare me -- because I would have to expect that (supposing Logos is programmed in something of an object-orientented, and some (probably more recent) version of an MVC paradigm (Of course it is!)) the Faithlife developers must either develop an entire new program around a very limited core library, so that a full-featured engine and user interface has to be written and updated from almost scratch (thereby sinking developer hours into, not only writing new apps, but also the libraries, interfaces, and bindings that work with them, which is expensive and time-consuming); or (which, given the integration, is what I suspect) there is a need for a basic API that re-focuses one or two MVC frameworks (like Logos and Proclaim), into any number of different applications -- which, if I remember my programming studies correctly, is one of the major benefits of developing software in a modular, object oriented way; but doing so could also be bad for performance, as optimizing the code for different features becomes more complicated, as code in the engine may have to be tested in different additional ways; and there are additional clients that must be handled, which must be dispatched at runtime (one of the ways of optimizing software is reducing the indirection involved in these kinds of calls -- especially if they occur frequently), and, possibly, the need to develop wrappers and adaptors and interfaces that allow for the function of libraries to be extended into new use cases for new features. (The benefit, as far as I can remember, of modular and polymorphic programming is not to have the same Logos app repackaged into 4 different forms; but so that controller code doesn't do unexpected things to the state of the model if the end user does something 'unexpected'; being able to handle unexpected and erroneous 'events' intelligently; and so that the logic behind particular features can be added, updated, and changed, with a bare minimum of change to other parts of the program, so that the program can be more easily maintained, enhanced, and updated.) This makes me wonder, whether or not there are either (1) features and optimization that are not the best they could be, because what should be concrete is abstract or polymorphic, or involving extraneous function calls, which does take away runtime; or what model and controller code could be improved by not having 4 different viewers; or (2) what features don't work as well as they could, or aren't built distinctly for a technical study and research platform, because they have to interface with 5 different (expensive to develop and/or maintain) software components, which also effects the available functionality and ability for new features to work natively within an app.  In short, programming is a tough job, and I have to wonder if Faithlife is over-extended.

Yes, I can agree that 'great new features every six weeks' is amazing, and, having a very small taste of the effort and thought required to write quality programs, I would not be surprised if it were very difficult for developers to maintain that kind of release schedule for all but the most trivial of new features.  Yes, it is difficult and expensive.  And it requires updating techniques, libraries, and compilers quite often.  And commercial compilers and IDE's, too, can be expensive.  And decent development libraries are expensive, and sometimes can be licensed on a per-instance basis, which makes development of a commercial program more and more expensive. And developing a major commercial program across two different platforms requires investing in development tools, training, and commercial libraries for not just one, but two different platforms, which makes the development all the more costly.  And developing free versions for mobile platforms may also require different programming skills, commercial licenses, and possibly paying for the app to be included in the store.  

So, I am not surprised to see that different companies need to balance their cashflow with subscription pricing.  I can understand the need for having new avenues of income.  And I can probably expect that this cashflow becomes largely prejudicial to faithlife, when many of the business tools that you use every day may or may not have moved to the cloud and incur ongoing costs when they may have previously involved one-time costs.  As I said, I would consider subscribing to something that truly enhances my ability to study better.

However, I can also argue from my experience as a person who has spent my entire adult life in the study of Christian theology and of the Bible, that I find many of the products offered unhelpful.  I find that the "package expert" guys are some of the best experts of the hard sell, which I consider to be impertinent to a Christian company, and often overvaluing the product.  I find that, while there is focus on training, much of the focus is not on showing me how what I have now can get the job done in better ways; but in convincing me that I need just that little bit more -- whether or not I actually need it (I have to confess, that I am one of your costumers with a 'good enough for now' library with few exceptions: I purchased a base package at my level with that particular intention) -- which I find to be neither virtuous nor helpful; and that these changes in branding are not pertinent to me, but are just plain distracting; and are not at all related to the reason I purchased Logos: to be able to study Scripture better, more thoroughly, and more easily.   I have looked at Vyrso on several occasions, and I have found the available content lacking; The sermon editor seems to be more suited for a Proclaim power user and Bible study leader than someone who wants to have a tool integrated into *Logos* that helps with developing _sermons_.  It seems almost unsuited to a person who will never want proclaim (and would likely find different options if he did) (the page describing it advertises a feature to develop sermons and Bible studies *quick and easy*; most pastors would recognize, however, that there is more value in outlining, drafting, and brainstorming tools (both for study and for the actual message)  than in media production tools; propositional outlines (although, one would wonder if that is something that would be better provided as a diagramming/outlining module, than in pre-written outlines of bible books (especially for the textual or thematic preacher)) notwithstanding.

Logos Now was something I was considering subscribing to, especially if it would bring with it better access to support (I find Morris Proctor's work to be very lacking), and considerable discounts to allow me to add more to my library once I can and/or need to.  I believe I understood the product right: additional features, unavailable to other Logos 7 users; access to the web-app without subscribing to cloud; and the ability to upgrade to the new version before others, with discounts on version 8 base packages.

Now, with *cloud* and the web-app, I can see where the confusion may arise. I am also confused, though, on why I have been prompted to buy a base package after I bought a base package.  I find faithlife TV to be questionable (are you really trying to compete with Netflix-like streaming services, as a Bible study company!?); and often find most video productions from evangelical sources lacking in quality.  I might consider a subscription that would allow me to download("own") an extra some-odd Logos resources per month, but I have to say, I am likely not going to find the new ebook service to be that much improved over the selection of Vyrso, which I also found to be one of the least capable eReader apps available.  As an existing Logos costumer, I am also confused about whether or not FaithlifeConnect is offering me access to Logos, Logos cloud, or additional features/resources in Logos (or Bible study on the Web?)!  On the one hand, this scheme reminds me of the online Christian bookstore, of which I am a preferred customer, wanting me to pay $5 per month, in order to receive discounts -- even though I prefer my books in e-edition -- and then sending me endless catalogues advertising mostly junk and trivia whenever I place an order. If I wanted to go broke buying endless books that look good, that is a good thing; If I want to build a library to help me study, then it is counterproductive and distracting. That is an unfortunate but irritating side of ordering from that company. (One would also have to wonder how many people pay that $5).

So, if there is a likelihood that (like, I will perhaps need to focus at some point on original language and/or Baptist resources) this subscription will give me tools to build a better research library, or to use it better, then I will consider it carefully.  If it will give me the ability to invest more to get more tools, to make better use of my library, then I will consider it carefully.  But, *Faithlife* products? and a "research library" consisting of (access to) mostly products that I either already own, or of which I have no need at this time? (I actually had considered Cloud Premium or Pro as an alternative to Logos, but decided my base package is more cost effective -- I found the resources available at the lower levels to be, well, trite).  Well, the issue of buying v licensing web-based products is confusing, I'll admit (since, in reality, I probably do not actually "own" my library, but a perpetual license to it) -- but, this is why I say, that I would be interested if there were considerable discounts on future *Logos* _purchases_ (without the "package expert" people) to allow me to develop my library further when I can and need to.  But, looking at the TV site, I come to suspect, that you are, again, not developing a tool for serious technical/pastoral Bible study, but engaging in a market of Church and Christian content consumption -- possibly trying to compete with the likes of Facebook and Netflix -- which is distracting to me, is often prejudicial to the ability to really focus on study and reading, and leaves me wondering how much value I am loosing from my significant investment in a base package because of these ventures which are largely superfluous to my needs; and perhaps how much it will distract from being able to invest further in my library on the Logos platform according to my needs, or whether the focus of the company has been moved from developing the kind of quality that is advertised and promised, to developing these devices and innovations, which are of no real or lasting value to the Logos platform, and require me to navigate through a stream of campaigns and advertising intended to sell me effective junk, while convincing me of the increased value thereof.

So, no, you killing Logos Now.  But you are removing anything of interest, and focusing the subscription on what seems to me to be superfluous, which is irrelevant to the product I purchased from your company; you do not place a decision before me to either subscribe or own features and/or resources; you place something which, whether I choose to subscribe to it or not, already means that the value of my software is considerably diminished from what it could be; and you need me to subscribe to something I have very little need or want for, in order to help fund further development on a piece of software for which I am already heavily invested; and where much of my investment is not going to developing features, or helping to create more value for my Bible study platform, but to things for which I would expect that your more serious and loyal costumers have little need or use: just consumption. 

I would, also, have to ask whether or not this 'tail wagging the dog' is a 'failure' of Logos Now; or whether a hard-sell, over-committed software company, while spreading itself too thin, is unable to actually guide its costumers (and, perhaps, even provide them with) the products that actually meet the needs of its costumers, but trains and pushes sales to the point that many costumers who ought to consider cloud essentials end up with both base packages and subscriptions.  I would wonder if the absence of a promised cloud app is indicative of a lack of focus of development and support for the reason Logos exists, and the reason that most costumers will ever use Logos; and if many of the transaction people felt left out, because they felt pressured from an over-extending sales team to buy and subscribe to more than they need.  

As a recent purchaser, who had considered the option of LN, I would have to argue that this not only undermines my willingness to "subscribe" ...

I didn't read your post beyond the first paragraph (I'm sorry) but in case you weren't aware of the new developments re: Logos Now and Faithlife Connect, here is an update thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/160830.aspx 

access to the web-app without subscribing to cloud

LN used to be the only way to get access to the web app, but that changed a while ago. Now anyone can get access.

If Logos Now is continuing in the form of Faithlife Connect (No Library), then why are there people on this thread deciding to transfer to Verbum Now? But thanks for making my point for me: navigating campaigns and hype for divergent products that are superfluous to anything I will ever need.
Do I need media packages? well, I would love the kind of media that helps me understand the Bible better; and, perhaps, lots of it: but not that projector stuff. And, even if I did, there's Graceway, and Sharefaith, and both those companies make better stuff than the Faithlife media stuff. Do I need ebooks? well, yes: but there's already a company out there that does that: lot's of them, in fact. Do I need to distribute my sermons to shut-ins? well, there's sermonaudio (and sermon central, ...). Do I need Christian documentaries? well, it could be useful. But I could also pester my church into subscribing to RightNow Media if I actually had a need for that.

It is also disturbing to me that one of the in-house Ph.D. scholars-in-residence who produces Lexham imprints for Logos (like the interactive media and Lexham books included in ALL base packages) produced a documentary on aliens and demons. And, that Faithlife has decided to feature it on the new Faithlife Connect TV site. This makes me wonder if many of the resources I depend on in my Reformed Portfolio base package is on the level of 'God and Jesus are aliens' type scholarship. Considering that this is from a company that advertises 'premier' Bible software, this is HORRIFYING! It also makes me wonder if FL is so unable to see and produce quality, that they will make a product that is on the level of the National Inquirer rather than the New York Times. Since there seems to be a tendency to replace standard scholarly works with Lexham imprints, this causes me to loose very much confidence, not only in my own software package, but possibly anyone who regarly uses these resources. Is the Dictionary of Bible Themes such a product with a National Inquirer level of accuracy? If so, that could have eternal consequences.

So, yea, it might be like being grandfathered into a LN++ type of product. But wouldn't a LN++ type product be focused on LOGOS users (not TV, VYRSO, PROCLAIM, CLOUD, GROUPS or the FSB, BUT LOGOS)? Woudln't the point be to invest in LOGOS?

But, my point isn't that I feel left behind. My point is not that I am confused. My point is that it is two different animanls. It is two different animals, where, every time one of these animals pop up, Faithlife has to develop a new vision, marketing campaing, training campaign, programming, and find the people who need it. But, those people are usually going to be Logos costumers who need Advanced (premier?) Bible study software.

My church uses facebook to connect with people: so, I can see a use for a social network (I probably won't use it, though) that isn't an advertising platform. Or, maybe, one where prayers and Bible study are able to be well integrated into the service (that could be great for a church prayer ministry!). But do I really want my BIBLE STUDY SOFTWARE company to spend money and time on investing in that kind of platform, and then spend more time and money advertising on how it can be employed as a general, but half-baked, tool for church management? Do I want to roll it out in my church, when doing so also means that my BIBLE STUDY SOFTWARE company is, perhaps, not advertising the answer to your prayer(tm) to anyone stupid enough to post [personal] prayer requests on social media; but, instead, is advertising half-baked, half-functioning Bible Study cloud software to my church because Bible study is Quick and Easy(tm) with that cloud app we still can't get just quite right, because we're spending too much money putting our own Facebook together? Where will this end. Will FL have its own, in house, market to buy comments, likes and views? Maybe I can one day post something on my Faithlife page (Again, I would probably use blogspot, ... if I needed a blog) and pay to have some number of people 'amen' or 'I'm Prayin'' it. But, all this ... from the producers of PREMIER BIBLE STUDY SOFTWARE!?

Marketing, and advertising, and business costs are real. And they mean that a company can only do so much. If that company wants to produce 12 different products, well, then, they often have to commit R&D, and programmer time, and marketing research, and training their sales people, and writing up informational stuffs, and other significant investments in time and money and other resources to EACH product. Faithlife can't decide that they will focus on Logos and then Proclaim is going to take care of itself. Nor will the campaign for the next Quick and Easy(tm), Awesome(R) feature for a faithlife product just materialize without effort. They have to have very significant investments to the development, research, and marketing of EACH. The Sermon Editor will neither write itself, debug itself, market itself, or even upgrade or improve itself!

A company can't wake up in the morning, decide it's going to be the leading Bible software producer in America, and then sell movies.  If a company decided that they want to produce books about the Bible, movies, podcasts, (and a dating website? ... really? wow, that's dumb.) then that company has left the Bible software market almost entirely.  It may be the leading Christian content distributor (for now), but there is a NECCESSARY adjustment to the commitment to produce software. So, it can produce the most content, and mediocre software; it can corner the market, so that you're not a Christian without it: but the best Bible software will always be somewhere else.  In order to be the leading (premier?) Bible software producer, it is neccessary to have a commitment to developing, innovating, and improving content and tools to make that program more useful to both old and new users.

Someone said that Mr. Pritchett (forgive me if I mis-spelled his name) is a fan of Jeff Bezos. Well, Amazon has the monies in reserve of a small nation, and operates with a very thin profit margin. But they can do that, because they are also large enough to keep the Post Office going. I doubt that Faithlife has that kind of money, manpower, or even costumer base.   And the fact is, however many books I buy from Amazon, they only care about the sell: they don't care about whether I get any benefit out of it or not. Even if I buy something I hate, it's no skin off their back whether I ever look at it again. Or even, if I think a physical kindle is one of those odd-looking ephone-ey thingies!

And programming is a difficult job. You don't just look at a computer and tell it to, "instantiate this data-structure template class for any number of instances of various types, that implement interface i." It requires coding, testing, debugging, alpha-testing, beta-testing,... writing Library code, controller code, model code, building a GUI, and making those pretty little pictures we call icons. It is very time-consuming. Faithlife is not Google. They are not Apple. They are not Microsoft. They don't have all the information in the world(tm) stored on their servers. They don't make their own hardware. They don't have endless developers lined up in giant departments to develop software that most people could never live without(R). They may be larger than I expect. But wouldn't it make sense, that in order to do something that will remain premier, they must focus on what they do? (I think someone complained about that, too).

Have you looked at the paper feature in Accordance 12? or the Dynamic Interlinear? Have you looked into the Instant Verse Study feature in Wordsearch? These are products that are developed by companies that focus on Bible Study, and they provide products that focus on Bible Study and Research, and making sure their products fit into the workflow of their costumers as seemlessly as possible. So all the features focus on Bible study and resarch, and doing it the way it is best. I don't have Accordance 12, But I wouldn't be surprised if the Paper feature is oodles more useful to my workflow and sermon writing than the Sermon editor ever will be: I don't have proclaim. If I did, it would suddenly become the absolute best tool for building quick and easy(tm) messages for proclaim. So the end-result is a product that is well-focused and consistent, without plugs for other products that company makes (Paper focuses very closely on the needs of what an Accordance user has in STUDYING the BIBLE, because there is no Accordance Proclaim. Proclaim may be a very good product (and perhaps it is); it may even be the best out there (it's not. . .), or the most affordable (again, . . .)), but (1) I am investing in a "premier" product that is supposed to make MY workflow easier, not Faithlife's, or that which Faithlife hopes I buy into (sorry:subscribe) to do quick and easy(tm) work on largely half-baked stuff; and (2) Even if I could get FC for free, it's not something that helps me use LOGOS Better, or STUDY MY BIBLE better. It is a range of products that one can easily find elsewhere, usually better.

The point is that Logos prides itself on being premier Bible study software. Not a decent, professional-grade Bible study software that can interact with its own, in-house, facebook; or its own, in-house Netflix; or its own, in-house, PowerPoint; or, even, its own, in-house iBooks: but a premiere Bible study program that MAKES THE PASTOR'S WORKFLOW EASIER. Will a premiere product come from an unfocused company, and where my investment in this product seems to very heavily imply that I must buy (I'm sorry: subscribe) into a largely superfluous FL World? How does that largely superfluous FL world help to develop PREMIER (not decent; not half-baked, but with lots of promise and potential) Bible study software?

Or, better, do I need to move to use competing products in order to have the kind of features, stability, and performance that would come from a company that DOES produce premiere software? I would expect that it is better to produce the software that anyone knows is the best, so that much of the marketing comes from the product's reputation. I would expect that a better corporate environment would be focused on handling costumer needs, rather than pushing sales and subscriptions. And, I would also expect that a company that wants to maintain good relations with its costumers would pay VERY close attention to communication. I may have purchased my base package recently, but I have followed many of these development since L4. And, well, Faithlife lacks focus. And clarity. And that lack costs me features, speed, polish, resources, and possibly even innovation, training, and developer time and resources in order to pursue that next BIG feature, to bring that next BIG hype; or the next faithlife product that hardly anyone knows about, or even cares.

If Logos Now is continuing in the form of Faithlife Connect (No Library), then why are there people on this thread deciding to transfer to Verbum Now?

They are not! You aren't reading the thread in context. Check the dates! 

I see that you are new to the forum. Welcome! [:)] One suggestion: I would try to keep your posts short & concise, else your posts will fall to the TL;DR (Too Long; Didn't Read) syndrome. 

Hi, 

With the Logos Now Membership and the free book each month, I started to collect the J. C. Ryle Expository on the Gospels, I Got 2/4 books on John, now with the switch over to Faithlife Connect, will all the same books be available to choose from so I can get the rest of the set?

With the Logos Now Membership and the free book each month, I started to collect the J. C. Ryle Expository on the Gospels, I Got 2/4 books on John, now with the switch over to Faithlife Connect, will all the same books be available to choose from so I can get the rest of the set?

Hi Nathan,

yes, the free classic books under FLC are the same as under LNow.

If Logos Now is continuing in the form of Faithlife Connect (No Library), then why are there people on this thread deciding to transfer to Verbum Now?

They are not! You aren't reading the thread in context. Check the dates! 

I see that you are new to the forum. Welcome! One suggestion: I would try to keep your posts short & concise, else your posts will fall to the TL;DR (Too Long; Didn't Read) syndrome. 

He was probably seeing if he could out-word me. :-)

By the way, I still have intentions to post back some feedback about future Logos upgrades. Work has been keeping me swamped lately with some major projects, but when I get a chance to come up for air, I'll post it. It'll likely be a WTL;DR post though. :-)

This change is welcome by me, personally.  I am not opposed to a subscription model, but it seems unlikely the resources I am interested in will ever be available via one (at least for a long time).  It's one thing for a company to move to a subscription model, it's another thing to convince publishers to make their products "subscription" products instead of buy-to-own.

I prefer to have a small library of resources I know well and use frequently than a large library of duds and overlaps; and, like many, I'm most interested in commentaries, which will always be the "premium" resource.  As long as I can still buy these and use these (and am never in danger of losing them) I am happy.  Since the one thing that could hurt me most is Faithlife going out of business, I am happy your are doing whatever you need to stay afloat.

Personally I hide all videos and interactives.  They are completely useless to me.  Datasets and interlinears are great.  I also use collections and guides (my own custom passage guide).  That's my product usage.  So from my perspective, I would rather less money invested in flashy features and videos, but if that's what the new generation and new customers will pay for, then it still benefits me (indirectly).  I just hope you've read the market correctly and the investment doesn't turn into a loss.

Josiah:  This is interesting to me.  I would think it would be easier to get publishers to accept a subscription model.  If they could figure out a way to do it like Apple music.  Whenever a resource is used a monthly report sent to the Faithlife will allow that publisher to get some money for each use.  Also, they could negotiate with Faithlife to allow the newest resources to only be subscription.  

I am upset because the Faithlife connect just doesn't seem like that good of a deal if you really only want to use Logos and build a great library of resources.  

Josiah:  This is interesting to me.  I would think it would be easier to get publishers to accept a subscription model.  If they could figure out a way to do it like Apple music.  Whenever a resource is used a monthly report sent to the Faithlife will allow that publisher to get some money for each use.  Also, they could negotiate with Faithlife to allow the newest resources to only be subscription.  

I am upset because the Faithlife connect just doesn't seem like that good of a deal if you really only want to use Logos and build a great library of resources.  

I thought the same thing when it came to publishers. The only drawback to subscription models is while the royalties are ongoing vs one time, generally the royalty payments are far lower than the cost of direct-purchase or especially bundle items (as one who has a music album and have watched the royalty payments come in over sales vs subscriptions, subscriptions are a fraction of the payment over direct sales. However, more overall customers listen to my music over streaming vs direct payment so they can "take a chance" on me, so I wouldn't reach as many audiences nor would I overall see as my royalties without the subscription model).

The FL Connect Essential (No Resources) solution that Bob offered to grandfather LN customers into for $99/year is a good option for those wanting all the Logos features without the books (even the price for new customers seems overall reasonable). I get all the features of Logos and LN, plus some additional perks. Some of the perks I haven't had time to heavily use yet (such as streaming much on FL TV), but it's nice to have them if I need them, plus periodically I can leverage these additional perks to benefit my studies.

Josiah:  This is interesting to me.  I would think it would be easier to get publishers to accept a subscription model.  If they could figure out a way to do it like Apple music.  Whenever a resource is used a monthly report sent to the Faithlife will allow that publisher to get some money for each use.  Also, they could negotiate with Faithlife to allow the newest resources to only be subscription.  

I guess we'll see.  I'm sure the NICNT/NICOT will be available there any day now.  And a bunch of Brill journals...

Honestly, I'm not an industry insider, but I don't think anyone in the music industry is rejoicing over this great era of Apple Music and Spotify, etc.  I think they would gladly take the next time machine to the 80s.  I don't really listen to music anymore, but I'm pretty sure most artists view such streaming avenues simply as advertising for their concerts.

I guess academic biblical studies writers could move in this direction, but I'd rather they get to stay with their families, and be able to spend time researching and writing instead of flying around the world just to read their journal articles out loud.

I am upset because the Faithlife connect just doesn't seem like that good of a deal if you really only want to use Logos and build a great library of resources.  

Hmm, maybe I'm misunderstanding something.  The way I read it I have no real reason to use Faithlife Connect, which is great, because now my monthly costs go down and I have more money for books.  Whereas before there was incentive to use Logos Now to access new features (for example: the discourse analysis tools are great for reading original Greek and they might have been Logos Now only (I can't remember)).  Since Faithlife Connect provides nothing I want, it seems an infinitely better system than Logos Now, which often seemed like a better option than purchasing a feature set to go with your library.

But here I might be confused.  Sometimes I read quickly and miss the finer details.

I don't think anyone in the music industry is rejoicing over this great era of Apple Music and Spotify, etc.

Smaller labels might, especially if they end up being featured. 

I'm still a bit confused about all of this.

What options do I have to keep my features set?

I won't be spending over $100 for subscription. I am happy with what I was given now, Faithlife Essentials, is this price changing in the future?

I'm still a bit confused about all of this.

What options do I have to keep my features set?

I won't be spending over $100 for subscription. I am happy with what I was given now, Faithlife Essentials, is this price changing in the future?

If you had Logos Now, you'll be migrated to a special version of Faithlife Essentials without the rental library (basically Logos Now plus all the other non-library features of Faithlife Essentials) for the same price you paid for Now ($99.99/year).

Oh ok, brilliant, happy with that.

Thanks!

I'm still a bit confused about all of this.

What options do I have to keep my features set?

I won't be spending over $100 for subscription. I am happy with what I was given now, Faithlife Essentials, is this price changing in the future?

 A limited toolset is available for $8.99. To get access to the full toolset, you'll be spending 19.99 a month.  You do get a little more value for that money, including two free mobile courses per year (you pick from their complete library).  Plus two free ebooks and other benefits.  Compare the three pricing tiers and what they get.

I'm still a bit confused about all of this.

What options do I have to keep my features set?

I won't be spending over $100 for subscription. I am happy with what I was given now, Faithlife Essentials, is this price changing in the future?

 A limited toolset is available for $8.99. To get access to the full toolset, you'll be spending 19.99 a month.  You do get a little more value for that money, including two free mobile courses per year (you pick from their complete library).  Plus two free ebooks and other benefits.  Compare the three pricing tiers and what they get.

Thanks, but I had the Logos Now membership before and am happy that I still get the $100 a year option for full feature set and will be staying on that.

I'm still a bit confused about all of this.

What options do I have to keep my features set?

I won't be spending over $100 for subscription. I am happy with what I was given now, Faithlife Essentials, is this price changing in the future?

 A limited toolset is available for $8.99. To get access to the full toolset, you'll be spending 19.99 a month.  You do get a little more value for that money, including two free mobile courses per year (you pick from their complete library).  Plus two free ebooks and other benefits.  Compare the three pricing tiers and what they get.

Thanks, but I had the Logos Now membership before and am happy that I still get the $100 a year option for full feature set and will be staying on that.

FYI, if you want to read Bob's original announcement about this (being grandfathered in and getting better deal), and haven't, it's here.

I may have missed an email about this as well as others.  I used to pay $100 a year for Logos Cloud.  Not it's double the price?  What about a discount for those who had Logos cloud for 1 year so we can see the new features?

Hi Todd

If you look at the post above yours there is a link to finding out about the 'grandfathered' option to stay on at the same price.

Hi Mike:

When I click on the link above to see about the "grandfathered" option, this is what I get.  I'm still confused.

That is odd Todd because when I click on this link...

I get this page...

I may have missed an email about this as well as others.  I used to pay $100 a year for Logos Cloud.  Not it's double the price?  What about a discount for those who had Logos cloud for 1 year so we can see the new features?

Hi Todd,

If you had been a subscriber to Logos Now, and then stopped, you may not be eligible for the deal that Mike links to. I think you'd need to check with customer services to ask them whether they're willing to let you in on that deal.

If your subscription hasn't lapsed, then you should have been automatically moved to that deal.

It is also disturbing to me that one of the in-house Ph.D. scholars-in-residence who produces Lexham imprints for Logos (like the interactive media and Lexham books included in ALL base packages) produced a documentary on aliens and demons. And, that Faithlife has decided to feature it on the new Faithlife Connect TV site. This makes me wonder if many of the resources I depend on in my Reformed Portfolio base package is on the level of 'God and Jesus are aliens' type scholarship. Considering that this is from a company that advertises 'premier' Bible software, this is HORRIFYING! It also makes me wonder if FL is so unable to see and produce quality, that they will make a product that is on the level of the National Inquirer rather than the New York Times.

I can't see that anyone addressed this concern of yours in the forum, but I think that it is SO important, that I'm going respond and stand up for Mike Heiser (and by extension, FL's reputation). I haven't watched said documentary, but have seen the splash screen and can understand why, without knowing anything of its content, or of Mike Heiser's ministry of scholarship, you would think it is wacko fringe material. But having read Heiser's book The Unseen Realm, listened to several of his podcasts, looked at his websites, and watched some of his videos on Youtube, I can tell you he is a solid scholar who in fact considers it part of his ministry to reach people who believe the wacko 'God and Jesus are aliens' type stuff. (I have a close relative who is one!) So my advice, my brother, is to check it out before dismissing him and all of Faithlife with it. You do yourself a disservice, and border on slander of Heiser who is a defender or our faith. Here's a few links to help you see what he's about. You may find his research into this stuff helpful if you ever have to talk to someone who is terribly confused by it all. (They are a hard group to reach because they really want to believe it.)

Ancient Giant Skeletons - Are Giant Skulls and Cyclopes Real or Myth?:     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zaqu3srBwc

Ancient Astronauts Debunked:  https://www.ancientaliensdebunked.com/

Since there seems to be a tendency to replace standard scholarly works with Lexham imprints, this causes me to loose very much confidence, not only in my own software package, but possibly anyone who regularly uses these resources. Is the Dictionary of Bible Themes such a product with a National Inquirer level of accuracy? If so, that could have eternal consequences.

I have found the Lexham Bible Dictionary, and Lexham Theological Wordbook to be solid resources that do an excellent job of condensing down large topics to the most important and crucial details. They've become my first stop when I need to get up to speed quickly on something. When I do further research in other standard resources and am able to compare, I do not find Lexham to be shoddy or inaccurate in any way. Just the opposite.

You are right Mr. Bailey.   

cbabc: after reading some of Dr. Heiser's books will will finally, and I bet for the first time, really understand Psalm 82 and a host of other confusing passages which are Divine Council related.  He is a good straight forward brainiac who has made a huge difference in my life.  Don't sell him short.... 

Read the Unseen Realm (and if you could get Redeeming Hermon even better.... it is not sold by Logos at this time); and if it isn't one of the 10 best books you have read this year I will give  you a gift certificate for the full purchase price of the book.

Rob 

I agree with Kevin,  as I work for a software company who is pushing to cloud based services. It may work in some marketplaces,  but I for one dislike the cloud model and am willing to pay on a transactional model. I wish the bsst for that model and those it works for.

Mind you I have been a Logos customer since around 2004, and a former ambassador.  I still promote Logos software...but prefer ownership. 

Really not happy with what was promised and now has changed ... I feel you took advantage of my subscription commitment.

Hi Chris

Really not happy with what was promised and now has changed ... I feel you took advantage of my subscription commitment.

We would need someone from Faithlife to address your specific concerns but are you able to outline what you feel has changed, what concerns you?

Thanks, Graham 

Chris,

I think I got pretty much what I was promised....

I know that I have sent two inquiries to customer service asking what software functionality (excluding stuff like free books and TV) I will lose if I return the recent Connect purchase and buy the full Logos 8 feature set. 

I haven't gotten any response other than a confirmation that I can return the Connect purchase.   It would be nice to know this answer.  It the answer is nothing then they (Faithlife et al.) have for sure kept their promises.

Really not happy with what was promised and now has changed ... I feel you took advantage of my subscription commitment.

Chris, I assume you are a Connect Essentials subscriber. If so, are you aware that you can purchase an L8 base package without the feature set with a 30% discount as a Connect subscriber and continue your Connect subscription? If you are a Connect subscriber you should have received an email with a link to update you to L8 immediately at no cost.

Wow Bob I cant believe this. I have been with Logos since the late 80s with cds. Then moved up to internet downloads and now 30,000 dollars later am here. This Christmas the updates came out no one said a word to me that the essentials was going. If I had known it would have helped me  in my decision to up grade. One morning I will get out of bed and logos 9 will be out and I am stuck paying upgrades, that is what happen in the past. I am 30,000 dollars into this, all by myself floating. It would be nice to be updated when you do things like this. I think you have my email.

Welcome to the forums Don. Just checking that you know the thread you are responding in is an old thread. What are you actually responding to - email? purchase options?

hi MJ, Thanks for the headsup. I didn't know it was a old thread. I am always 5 or 6 steps about what is going on with logos. They never seem to tell what they are doing and iam mopping along trying to keep up. It really dosent matter, thanks again for letting me know. I think they are getting to big and little guys like me don't matter, even thou I have over 30000 dollars invested.

I think they are getting to big and little guys like me don't matter, even thou I have over 30000 dollars invested.

Who are the "big" guys? [:^)]

They never seem to tell what they are doing

Communication from FL can certainly be challenging at times, but most of us complain about too many emails from FL. Have you checked your settings? Do you have email going into a spam folder? 

In any case, what is your primary concern? MJ tried to get you to explain, but you still haven't. You wrote: 

This Christmas the updates came out no one said a word to me that the essentials was going. If I had known it would have helped me  in my decision to up grade. One morning I will get out of bed and logos 9 will be out and I am stuck paying upgrades

Why do you think "essentials" is going away? Perhaps you subscribed to an annual subscription and it has run out? As for as I can tell, it is still available as a monthly or yearly subscription: