Not Happy Bob. Faithlife has broken their promise...

I’m sorry when that frustrates you, and promise that we will continue to try and do right by every user, even if we have to address each user’s situation specifically. We will also continue to listen to your feedback; it is the most important thing in helping us make decisions.

Thanks for letting us know what you think, even if you're unhappy.

Faithlife and its previous iterations has always promised they would never charge twice for a book, but with Faithlife Connect you are doing exactly that. Because I am one of your very best customers, once my trial is over, if I want access to FL's very best resources I have to pay a subscription that has significantly in cost and now includes paying for rentals of resources I already own.

Sure I got a coupon code but that doesn't compensate for breaking your promise. Right now the coupon code is of no value to me as I own every Logos 7 library and the Logos 7 Extended Feature Set. Only when Logos 8 comes out will I know if its of value then and I get to see what it offers. I

But to re-iterate, the main point of my post, you are breaking your promise that I would never have to pay twice for a resource I already own - sure I am free not to subscribe to Faithlife Connect, but then I am a no longer have access to other components of the Faithlife Connect that do interest me So because I am one of your very best customers having spent a 6 figure sum directly with you company over many years I now have a choice of paying to rent books I already have paid own a permanent license (there's that broken promise again) to get access everything else I am happy to pay for in Faithlife Connect.

I do wish FL well but when you decide to build the future of the company on a broken promise, that not a great corner stone on which to build success.

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Comments

MJ. Smith

Are you suggesting that the rental of resources be prorated against those you own?

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957816#Comment_957816

Are you suggesting that the rental of resources be prorated against those you own?

MJ, that would be result in Faithlife not breaking their promise so is a solution to the issue I raised in this thread for all users who already own any or all of the resources in the Logos Cloud Subscription that we are being forced to sign up for it we want to be a part of Faithlife Connect for all the other reasons to join.

I realize this might not have a significant impact upon the actual subscription cost if you are alluding to that fact - the cost of Faithlife connect is not the point of this post. It's about the very core of who Faithlife are as a company, is integrity a value of the company, can their word be trusted anymore? At the moment it can't because the leadership of FL have failed to keep their promise with the what they have offered via FL connect.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957827#Comment_957827

Are you suggesting that the rental of resources be prorated against those you own?

MJ, that would be result in Faithlife not breaking their promise so is a solution to the issue I raised in this thread for all users who already own any or all of the resources in the Logos Cloud Subscription that we are being forced to sign up for it we want to be a part of Faithlife Connect for all the other reasons to join.

I realize this might not have a significant impact upon the actual subscription cost if you are alluding to that fact - the cost of Faithlife connect is not the point of this post. It's about the very core of who Faithlife are as a company, is integrity a value of the company, can their word be trusted anymore? At the moment it can't because the leadership of FL have failed to keep their promise with the what they have offered via FL connect.

Doc I agree - this is where people start talking about having their trust shaken.

Breaking promises is an alarming and slippery slope.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957833#Comment_957833

Disciple,

I don't see this as a betrayal of trust, Even with Logos Now I paid for benefits I had already paid for. For instance the free book each month and Mobile Ed courses. Most of the time I already had bought those resources, so I received no benefit because I had already purchased them.

As you well know, pricing on base packages take into account the fact that there are always books you really don't care to have or pay for. I see Faithlife Connect as being the same way.

I think you are overstating the harm you perceive that has been done to you.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957843#Comment_957843

Bobby, this is not about harm done to me, this is about the harm FL has done to their reputation with some of their customer base.

As I include at the start of my post Bob wants feedback from all customers including those not happy so need for you to go around telling people they should not be honest about their response to FL [dis-] Connect. After all integrity is what my post is all about but I appreciate your concern for my welfare all the same, rest assured I am doing ok. Hope you are doing well aswell.

Disciple,

I don't see this as a betrayal of trust, Even with Logos Now I paid for benefits I had already paid for. For instance the free book each month and Mobile Ed courses. Most of the time I already had bought those resources, so I received no benefit because I had already purchased them.

As you well know, pricing on base packages take into account the fact that there are always books you really don't care to have or pay for. I see Faithlife Connect as being the same way.

I think you are overstating the harm you perceive that has been done to you.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957843#Comment_957843

Even with Logos Now I paid for benefits I had already paid for.

Exactly. For example if you own a feature set but also subscribe (for early access), you’re being charged to rent features that you own.

LN costs were never dynamically priced. (If they were, FL would have been in worse shape by giving us all the other benefits for pennies on the dollar.)

Bob has made the point that they need to cover development costs because the software is still given away for free. We can either support the company or stop subscribing.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957863#Comment_957863

Petah you and Bobby have missed two points:

1) These other things you talked about were not part of the promise I refer too as they did not exist when the promise was made.

2) Bob has clearly asked for all feedback as I allude to at the start of my post.

I did not and would not dispute the point you raise that Bob made about development costs, that is a red herring you raise unrelated to the issue I have raised. The end does not justify the means.

Thankyou all the same for your thoughts.

Even with Logos Now I paid for benefits I had already paid for.

Exactly. For example if you own a feature set but also subscribe (for early access), you’re being charged to rent features that you own.

LN costs were never dynamically priced. (If they were, FL would have been in worse shape by giving us all the other benefits for pennies on the dollar.)

Bob has made the point that they need to cover development costs because the software is still given away for free. We can either support the company or stop subscribing.

Dave Thawley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957879#Comment_957879

DOC - this is something I've realised as well. I've suggested on Bobs thread that they do something smart with the rental library and work out from a pool of books a set we don't own. I am not sure I would read stuff I haven't thought about buying but at least it would get around this issue of renting something we already have paid for. I am sure this wasn't an intention on the part of FL so I am hoping they can sort this out.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957892#Comment_957892

Thanks Dave for offering a constructive solution, this would also be an acceptable solution if the pool of resources were large enough and the publishers were on board if it was to be something more than just public domain titles.

I agree this was not something FL intentionally set out to do, but it is a consequence they should have Intentionally addressed rather than act like it is not an issue.

DOC - this is something I've realised as well. I've suggested on Bobs thread that they do something smart with the rental library and work out from a pool of books a set we don't own. I am not sure I would read stuff I haven't thought about buying but at least it would get around this issue of renting something we already have paid for. I am sure this wasn't an intention on the part of FL so I am hoping they can sort this out.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957879#Comment_957879

Can we hold someone to a promise they made about a different scenario (regarding not paying twice to buy a book you already own), when that didn't have anything to do with subscriptions, as you pointed out? FL Connect didn't exist back then, right?

Bob has said that dynamic pricing for FL Connect isn't possible. Either we accept this and move on (and subscribe), or miss out on the other benefits that we do want.

Either way, Bob is sorry, and he's given out many thousands of vouchers and/or free subscriptions to ease the pain. Let's just give thanks, because there's a lot of good in the software, in Bob, and in Faithlife (despite any mistakes, faults, or flaws present in any of our actions). They're not out to get us, right?

Grateful we can have a polite conversation, doc!

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957897#Comment_957897

it is a consequence they should have Intentionally addressed rather than act like it is not an issue

I'm quite certain they know it's an (apparently unresolvable) issue. Bob's not laughing all the way to the bank. I'm sure he cares about us, but things are what they are.

Sojourner

In another thread, I pointed out that their subscription model discourages purchasing the Standard packages. If the packages of FC and Logos Standard remain at a 1-to-1 ratio, then no one is encouraged to purchase a larger Standard library, since nothing changes after they purchase the larger set other than licensing. They are still paying through FC for the same library they had before buying. I would suggest that they find a subscription model that encourages users to buy content, not penalizes them.

They need to either separate the FC and Logos libraries so completely that they share next to no resources or provide a way to change the library to a new denomination. I, also, read someone mention the idea of picking the books you are renting. Do you have any ideas that would help make a FC better choice?

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957905#Comment_957905

They need to either separate the FC and Logos libraries so completely that they share next to no resources

I'd expect that would create a problem for new subscriber customers. Imagine if you didn't have access to the more useful books in your (Standard) library. How could a subscriber effectively use the software, whether to the web or the desktop platform, if renting didn't provide the same books as owning?

Gordon Hooker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957908#Comment_957908

Sorry no excuses you guys have just broken your promise and I for one will have to rethink my membership. You take things away and then try to sell it as a benefit, and then have the gall to say if you pay another US$100 a year we will basically give you what you already had. What is sad is then you try to justify it to loyal Logos customers.

Sojourner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957908#Comment_957908

They need to either separate the FC and Logos libraries so completely that they share next to no resources

I'd expect that would create a problem for new subscriber customers. Imagine if you didn't have access to the more useful books in your (Standard) library. How could a subscriber effectively use the software, whether to the web or the desktop platform, if renting didn't provide the same books as owning?

Not necessarily. Every denomination has a Starter Package. Those packages at times overlap, but are largely different. I'm just saying that the breadth of the Logos books appear to be wide enough that some new "denomination" should be possible. I think we need to know what the goal of the subscriber model is from FL's perspective. From my understanding of business models, the subscriber model should act as a sort of gateway to the rest of the ecosystem. Apple does this by providing products that add to each other improving the ecosystem. So an Iphone or Ipad is not the end result (though for many it will stop there), but to encourage their customers to continue investing in Apple products because life gets better.

If I was completely new, like I was a few months ago, I would have wanted a subscription model that gave me a taste for more. The price point convinces me to bite and experience what Logos has to offer. Then I as I became familiar with the tool suite and the books, I would notice that adding more content would make sense, but I wouldn't want to buy what I am already leasing. I'm looking to enhance my experience. I'm not planning on stopping my subscription, but as I can afford it add more content to it as I identify the needs.

Sean

Faithlife and its previous iterations has always promised they would never charge twice for a book, but with Faithlife Connect you are doing exactly that.

Ugh! My initial anger at the Connect launch was mostly around the 140% increase in price to stay current on features--the main reason I subscribed to Now in the first place. The coupon placated me somewhat. I didn't really notice this part. Now that I've seen the book lists, I'm really disappointed with what has happened here. I've only spent a fraction of what you have, yet Connect would still charge me rental for many resources I already own.

FaithLife, how on earth do you think this is a good idea? Do you really think the new customers you're going to catch in the Connect net is going to make up for the good will you've destroyed?

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957927#Comment_957927

Sorry no excuses you guys have just broken your promise and I for one will have to rethink my membership. You take things away and then try to sell it as a benefit, and then have the gall to say if you pay another US$100 a year we will basically give you what you already had. What is sad is then you try to justify it to loyal Logos customers.

You could subscribe to Verbum Now, which is almost identical to Logos Now, costs the same, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957959#Comment_957959

You could subscribe to Verbum Now, which is almost identical to Logos Now, costs the same, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I really wouldn't be so confident that this will remain a viable alternative for long. It could change overnight--any night.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957963#Comment_957963

You could subscribe to Verbum Now, which is almost identical to Logos Now, costs the same, and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I really wouldn't be so confident that this will remain a viable alternative for long. It could change overnight--any night.

The Verbum staff have made a point of reassuring Verbum Now customers that they have no plans to get rid of it, and that Verbum Now members will not be migrating to Faithlife Connect.

Given that the resources to create a purely theoretical 'Verbum Connect' simply don't exist (e.g., a massive library of Verbum Mobile Ed videos, Verbum TV, etc.), I think it's safe for at least another year or two, at bare minimum.

Furthermore, there should be a nice uptick in Verbum Now membership come November....

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957901#Comment_957901

it is a consequence they should have Intentionally addressed rather than act like it is not an issue

I'm quite certain they know it's an (apparently unresolvable) issue. Bob's not laughing all the way to the bank. I'm sure he cares about us, but things are what they are.

You love throwing in red herring's Petah, nowhere have I said Bob was laughing all the way to the bank, or that he was doing this for greed.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/957899#Comment_957899

Can we hold someone to a promise they made about a different scenario (regarding not paying twice to buy a book you already own), when that didn't have anything to do with subscriptions, as you pointed out? FL Connect didn't exist back then, right?

Bob has said that dynamic pricing for FL Connect isn't possible. Either we accept this and move on (and subscribe), or miss out on the other benefits that we do want.

Either way, Bob is sorry, and he's given out many thousands of vouchers and/or free subscriptions to ease the pain. Let's just give thanks, because there's a lot of good in the software, in Bob, and in Faithlife (despite any mistakes, faults, or flaws present in any of our actions). They're not out to get us, right?

Where did I say I was not thankful for the other things in Faithlife connect ? Free subscriptions to my knowledge have not been given to users, rather fee time limited free trials of the service have been given out. If any one is getting their subscription to FL Connect, then they have obviously spent a very large sum with this company.

And I have not asked for dynamic pricing, someone else asked if I thought it was an acceptable resolution and I responded if it was doable, then it would be acceptable. Those red herrings from you keep coming.

What I don't see is Bob admitting he has broken his promise to customers. I just see him using poor analogies that don't fit the situation to justify to himself why he is now charging people to rent books they already own when in order to set Logos / FL apart from competitors in the past he promise that would never happen. Petah no matter what you say bottom line is a promise has been broken and Faithlife are not manning up and coming out and saying they have broken a promise.

Grateful we can have a polite conversation, doc!

We can agree on that much. Petah [:)]

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/958044#Comment_958044

Check out Bob's announcement about the new migration plan for Logos Now members.