Bob: The mistake of bloat v real value increases
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Michael Childs said:
I cannot imagine a single new feature that I would give you a dime to have.
I'm even less Logosian than you. No updates; no L8. Older PC. But I can imagine bunches of features. Maybe the top 2, I'd pay $100 for.
Ok, ok. I under-estimated. The top 1 I'd pay $500 for. And if they church'd the interface, $1,000. ('Church' means usable for fellow Bible study-ers.)
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Correction, guys!
Accordance emailed me and told me the first e-mail where they only mention that the coupon is valid only for Logos users who want to switch to Accordance is a mistake. The coupon is intended for anyone who wants to switch to Accordance regardless of what Bible software they own. They do not have any inside information and they DO NOT WANT Logos to feel they are being targeted.
So my apologies if I read too much into their email and posted right away.
Hopefully, all is clear now and no discord has been sowed. That's the last thing I want.
Thanks guys!
DAL
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I am only a user of both Accordance and Logos I have no real insight into the background happenings of either company beyond what one former FL employee shared a while ago. It seems very suspicious that the Lifeboat offer came up just as this happened, but I do doubt that FL is sharing things with Accordance and take it as a coincidence being I have doubts of some Accordance spy network. I doubt that FLC is the he equivalent of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic but I also sit back and wonder about the wisdom of many projects like FLTV. Bob is running his business as he sees best if we don't like it there are alternatives, though none with so robust of offerings (that said how many of us utilized to a great deal of the many books coming in our packages, books that appear to me to have often been added to gain a higher resource count than actually useful. I have long worried over FL with many of its actions in the past (but pauls "be anxious for nothing" was written for people like me) but we have been constantly reassured (and I have no indication it is a lie) all is financially ok and these things are done to ensure it stays that way. I never was a Verbum or Logos Now customer NOR do I see myself ever being a FLC customer. But I can understand the reasons for it in that there is a market for that, not sure how large but I have often said most people I know even pastors do not want to invest even the $300 to get started in Logos.... They have finally released a Basic to give people a real feel for the value people might get in Logos and finally offer people a real chance to get their feet wet before buying. I have no idea how many people will be lead into becoming subscribers/package purchasers from this move but I have told numerous people to download both it and Accordance, the once that I know moved beyond that point did go with Accordance as a cheaper price point, but that said I have talked mostly to lower end users like myself who don't use all in either software has to offer in original language study. Rather than Accordance Bibleworks or Olivetree the real danger to FL is that many are like the person above who said their friends would prefer to just google it. There will not be the quality there but in this day and age some people want quick answers with no depth... I for one am very happy to read and try to get my own answers from reliable sources be they in FL or other software.
-dan
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DAL said:
Correction, guys!
Accordance emailed me and told me the first e-mail where they only mention that the coupon is valid only for Logos users who want to switch to Accordance is a mistake. The coupon is intended for anyone who wants to switch to Accordance regardless of what Bible software they own. They do not have any inside information and they DO NOT WANT Logos to feel they are being targeted.
So my apologies if I read too much into their email and posted right away.
Hopefully, all is clear now and no discord has been sowed. That's the last thing I want.
Thanks guys!
DAL
That's funny... They have a "Switcher" then "Life Boat" sale the day that Logos has a minor meltdown in the forums over LN and they don't want Logos to feel targeted.
I have no problem with the approach they took to marketing their product, but call it what it is, a direct shot at their competition when they were down. Bible Software is cut-throat... the industry I work in is not that tough. Business is business I guess regardless of the industry.
DAL, you don't usually let things like this slide... what's up?
Edit: Please read some humor into my post along with my observation.
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John Fidel said:DAL said:
Correction, guys!
Accordance emailed me and told me the first e-mail where they only mention that the coupon is valid only for Logos users who want to switch to Accordance is a mistake. The coupon is intended for anyone who wants to switch to Accordance regardless of what Bible software they own. They do not have any inside information and they DO NOT WANT Logos to feel they are being targeted.
So my apologies if I read too much into their email and posted right away.
Hopefully, all is clear now and no discord has been sowed. That's the last thing I want.
Thanks guys!
DAL
That's funny... They have a "Switcher" then "Life Boat" sale the day that Logos has a minor meltdown in the forums over LN and they don't want Logos to feel targeted.
I have no problem with the approach they took to marketing their product, but call it what it is, a direct shot at their competition when they were down. Bible Software is cut-throat... the industry I work in is not that tough. Business is business I guess regardless of the industry.
DAL, you don't usually let things like this slide... what's up?
Edit: Please read some humor into my post along with my observation.
I'd give them an A for creativity, but they earn an F for attempting to back pedal after the fact. I've never seen Wendy's poke McDonald's on social media only to call it a mistake a bit later. I enjoy the rivalries! Some of the pokes are quite entertaining and very clever marketing.
Logos Series X Pastor’s Library | Logos 3 Leader’s Library | 4 Portfolio | 5 Platinum | 6 Feature Crossgrade | 7 Essential | 8 M & W Platinum and Academic Professional | 9 Academic Professional and Messianic Jewish Diamond
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Check out Bob's announcement about the new migration plan for Logos Now members.
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Here's a good example of something that would be a real value increase.
Here's what Topic Guide brings up for Socinianism. Only one entry found:
But Logos already knows I have more than that. It knows I have 6:
However, this doesn't even find the articles which are in the following dictionaries:
- IVP New Dictionary of Theology
- Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary
- A Dictionary of Religious Denominations, Sects, Parties, and Associations
The IVP one is by no means obscure.
Topic Guide and Factbook are exceptional tools... yet only partially implemented. In fact it is one area where Logos has the edge over Acompetitor, but less so wherever it is partial.
Investment into this area would be true value.
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[Y] This a powerful observation!
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.5 1TB SSD
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Yep. So it showed me 1/10 of what I had.
I think this happens to me almost every day.
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Ok i'll add my two cents.
Let me say I am a new user of Logos, with under a year of experience, so I don't claim to know exactly what the long-term users are going through. But I can say that since I began using Logos, I've had zero issues with them. The customer service I receive from anyone I've interacted with (especially with my dedicated sales guy) is far and away the best customer service I've ever received from a company.
A common complaint I hear about Logos is how slow it is. How much time it takes to load. How the performance pales in comparison to other software. I get that, believe me. I recently upgraded my laptop so I could have better performance on Logos, among other reasons. But I don't see Logos being any different than any other "heavy" program, like Photoshop or a video editing program. Going in to these programs, the user knows they are going to require a strong computer to accomplish what is needed. You wouldn't try to run one of those programs on a machine that is old, or a machine that does not meet the minimum spec requirement. I attribute Logos to the same type of category. It is a resource heavy program, but take a step back and look at all that it does. Logos is a much more beneficial program than something like Photoshop or a video editing program, and yet nobody ever complains that those types of programs require a machine that can handle it.
I get there are many people who have invested thousands upon thousands of dollars into a program and feel they aren't getting their moneys worth, but to be honest, it is 2018 and look at the type of software we have access to. We are beyond words blessed with software like Logos, and to be honest, if you don't like it, there are other competitors to go with.
Logos 8 - Reformed Baptist Pastor - Student at MBTS - theologynights.com
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Brad said:
We are beyond words blessed with software like Logos, and to be honest, if you don't like it, there are other competitors to go with.
And Logos nor many of us want this, and really is an over simplification of the issues. Sure that may in some ways be the easy road, but I believe all of us want Logos to succeed and why we have invested so much. And this isn't the first time they have made a change in this fashion, and that ultimately was another big reason for the outcry among all the other issues people brought up.
But comments like this are frankly very disheartening to see...
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Can I ask what is wrong with saying if you are unhappy with a company to leave that company and go to a competitor?
Logos 8 - Reformed Baptist Pastor - Student at MBTS - theologynights.com
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Because it is an over simplified non-solution to the issues and speaks to limiting the voice of the customer. Basically your saying shut up and go away.
Most people see the extreme value in Logos and have invested in it, and would invest more if that investment made sense. This current action didn't to many of us and we expressed that. Nothing at all wrong with that, and from what I have seen all posts were rather well reasoned and spoke to the passion we have in Logos. And many of posts I also saw only spoke of cancelling a subscription not abandoning the software completely, in other words we were upset with a policy change not the product as a whole.
And then just say if you don't like it leave? Sorry, but is rather rude and non-productive. Even Bob when defending their decision was never like that, and I respect him for that, and I believe it was because he knows the passion we have for Logos and want it to succeed as much as he does. He would have accepted if people did leave, wouldn't have liked it, but I think on some level understood the decision. And if they would have stuck to the decision, I don't think many would have completely left as you suggest. I think we would all still be here contributing as we always have, giving the feedback we have always done to try to make Logos better in terms of content and performance.
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Brad said:
Can I ask what is wrong with saying if you are unhappy with a company to leave that company and go to a competitor?
Since you asked.
You're describing 'customer churn'. And, in theory, it should be the last choice. The customer (in this case) looses about 80% of his investment, plus learning. The company has to expend marketing bucks just to find someone else willing to pay (in this case) premium prices.
Far better to communicate. Cheap. Customer surveys, forums, a manager strolling around a restaurant. Many ways.
I suspect this is maybe the 6th time this has happened here, that I've observed.. Bob tends to put his (or staff's) ideas out there, and test the waters. Typically he watches the conflagration for maybe 3 days or so, presumably to see where the heartburn might be. And then the lengthy explanation plus mea culpa. And both parties keep on trucking. Unusual, maybe. But effective.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Far better to communicate. Cheap. Customer surveys, forums, a manager strolling around a restaurant. Many ways.
I suspect this is maybe the 6th time this has happened here, that I've observed.. Bob tends to put his (or staff's) ideas out there, and test the waters. Typically he watches the conflagration for maybe 3 days or so, presumably to see where the heartburn might be. And then the lengthy explanation plus mea culpa. And both parties keep on trucking. Unusual, maybe. But effective.
As noted, Logos/Faithlife has a long history of shooting first, aiming second. I personally think it's largely unnecessary & avoidable, but it seems to be how they roll. They do something the customers really don't want, the forums blaze, Bob corrects & does the right thing, and things mostly work out fine in the end. (Although, I think they would work out better for customers & more profitably for FL if they did try to think things through a little better to avoid these conflagrations. The supply of old customers' good will is not endless.)
Moreover, Bob has invited people to give feedback even if negative, and largely the company is very responsive too it.
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Andrew116 said:
Here's what Topic Guide brings up for Socinianism. Only one entry found:
Topic Guide and Search results depend on Library resources (personally have 4 Topic links, which could have been more):
Created thread => Bug 7.14 Beta 1 - Theological Headword phrase not found in Heading Text, Large Text search
IVP New Dictionary of Theology headword is phrase: "Socinus and Socinianism"
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Even the threads in this forum are becoming bloatware. I read the first page then when I got to the bottom and saw there were three more pages of presumably the same stuff, I gave up.
I just wish that Logos would go back to being Logos and send Faithlife packing.
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A very kind, helpful, and appropriate response, Denise.Denise said:Brad said:Can I ask what is wrong with saying if you are unhappy with a company to leave that company and go to a competitor?
Since you asked.
You're describing 'customer churn'. And, in theory, it should be the last choice. The customer (in this case) looses about 80% of his investment, plus learning. The company has to expend marketing bucks just to find someone else willing to pay (in this case) premium prices.
Far better to communicate. Cheap. Customer surveys, forums, a manager strolling around a restaurant. Many ways.
I suspect this is maybe the 6th time this has happened here, that I've observed.. Bob tends to put his (or staff's) ideas out there, and test the waters. Typically he watches the conflagration for maybe 3 days or so, presumably to see where the heartburn might be. And then the lengthy explanation plus mea culpa. And both parties keep on trucking. Unusual, maybe. But effective.
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Denise said:Brad said:
Can I ask what is wrong with saying if you are unhappy with a company to leave that company and go to a competitor?
Since you asked.
You're describing 'customer churn'. And, in theory, it should be the last choice. The customer (in this case) looses about 80% of his investment, plus learning. The company has to expend marketing bucks just to find someone else willing to pay (in this case) premium prices.
Far better to communicate. Cheap. Customer surveys, forums, a manager strolling around a restaurant. Many ways.
I suspect this is maybe the 6th time this has happened here, that I've observed.. Bob tends to put his (or staff's) ideas out there, and test the waters. Typically he watches the conflagration for maybe 3 days or so, presumably to see where the heartburn might be. And then the lengthy explanation plus mea culpa. And both parties keep on trucking. Unusual, maybe. But effective.
Good points Denise.
Just imagine where FL and we would be if all of us that were unhappy with FL dropping Now subscribers had not voiced our unhappiness and simply left for another package.
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I feel like most are missing the point of why I said "if you are unhappy with a company leave and go to a competitor." I certainly did not mean jump ship because of the issues you all had with Logos Now. What I was referring to is the overall theme of the forums. People complaining about how bad Logos has been for years. People saying stuff like this has happened for years. That's what I don't get. Again, I know I am new to the Logos game, so I won't try to say I understand all the pain of the users who have had Logos for many years. But the general theme of the forums is Logos is a horrible platform with bad customer service and always messes things up for the users. That is simply why I made the comment about switching to a competitor.
Logos 8 - Reformed Baptist Pastor - Student at MBTS - theologynights.com
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You make a good case that this is a strategy. The mea culpa makes the boo boo all better, Then March madness reduces the whole fiasco to yesterday's news. Brilliant. If there indeed is a think tank plotting these events, They are playing chess, and I am playing checkers.Denise said:I suspect this is maybe the 6th time this has happened here, that I've observed.. Bob tends to put his (or staff's) ideas out there, and test the waters. Typically he watches the conflagration for maybe 3 days or so, presumably to see where the heartburn might be. And then the lengthy explanation plus mea culpa. And both parties keep on trucking. Unusual, maybe. But effective.
But I still ain't subscribing to nuthin.
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Paul C said:
You make a good case that this is a strategy. The mea culpa makes the boo boo all better, Then March madness reduces the whole fiasco to yesterday's news. Brilliant. If there indeed is a think tank plotting these events, They are playing chess, and I am playing checkers.Denise said:I suspect this is maybe the 6th time this has happened here, that I've observed.. Bob tends to put his (or staff's) ideas out there, and test the waters. Typically he watches the conflagration for maybe 3 days or so, presumably to see where the heartburn might be. And then the lengthy explanation plus mea culpa. And both parties keep on trucking. Unusual, maybe. But effective.
But I still ain't subscribing to nuthin.
Interesting premiss Denise. I'm not sure what I think about that. I would hate to believe that but I see how someone could come to this conclusion. Since I don't know the validity of the premiss, I will give Bob the benefit of the doubt on this.
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Marshall Harrison said:
I will give Bob the benefit of the doubt on this.
I think that is the best way to go.
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The jury is still out for some. It would seem that all this deliberation has failed to convince some to subscribe.Marshall Harrison said:Since I don't know the validity of the premiss, I will give Bob the benefit of the doubt on this.
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