where to start with greek/hebrew?

Hey everyone,

So me and my wife have been watching some debates with James white and others, I have done some logos mobile ed courses and I know they heavily emphasize knowing the Greek and Hebrew in the sense of better understanding the meaning and word. Well me and my wife are just layman and have no seminary schooling. Where is a good place to start learning this? Even truly understanding things such as lexicons and root, lemma ext,? I just want to start getting in the habit of digging deeper with Greek and Hebrew in my daily studies.

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Liam Maguire

Great question.

Can't speak for Hebrew. My advice would be to pick one or the other. And assuming that you are thinking more than simply running the bible word guide, I'll give some thoughts based on my expirence with Greek, if that is ok?

Firstly, I am in the same boat as you. Whilst I have an undergrad in Theology I dropped out of the Greek module. But in recent years have begun attempting to learn again. Others can probably offer more practical advice, but as a fellow traveler, here is what I have found so far.

Here's how I've been teaching myself Greek.

1. A good flashcard app. Forget the Logos one, it is rubbish! I use Quizlet and this study set (https://quizlet.com/_4ju3zy) which covers 221 most used NT words and some grammar terms. 20 minutes a day - drill drill drill. That's been the least glamorous side of learning, but is essential. You simply will not get anywhere if you don't do this bit.

2. A Greek NT (I use the SBLGNT but any will do).

3. A decent lexicon. No need to fork out on BDAG - it will probably be too advanced for you anyway. I use the Louw-Nida.

4. A morphological visual filter. This is really helpful as it helps you work whether you are looking at a noun or verb straight away before you've even learned any ending forms.

5. Morphology Charts interactive. for working out all those tricky endings.

6. Long slow practice. I set up reading plans and then aim to translate a verse a day working in manageable chunks for the GNT. EG. John 1:1-21, Galatians 1, The Sermon on the Mount, etc. There is a helpful discussion here (http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1842) that list the books of the GNT by the ease of access.

As to the actual words, terms, etc. (eg. Lemma, root, etc.) I'd suggest that you check out the Bible Greek Study videos by Bill Mounce. Once you've done those, you might want to, pick up his Basics of Biblical Greek set and begin working through it (other introductions are available).

FWIW, I've tried the MobileEd Greek 101 course but failed to complete it. It assumes that you have a Platinum base package, and if you don't you are unable to progress as some of what it assumes in later videos are taught in the further readings. Which, are inaccessible without Platinum. Not great really since it is marketed as a 101 course.

Finally, some advice from someone only a year ahead of you. I had to drill into my mind along with my vocab that the goal in learning Greek is devotion and faithfulness.

Devotion in that I am growing in Greek to grow in my relationship with the Lord through his word, not to grow in knowledge to win arguments. Once I've translated my verse/unit and noted any textual/translation observations, I force myself to write some devotional observations, an application, and a couple of lines of prayer-journalling.
My goal is to be faithful, not original. If I come up with an obscure translation of a word or verse that none of the major translations use then I assume I am wrong and start again. I never assume that I have discovered some new angle on the verse/word/chapter/book. That way be dragons.

Any help?

Robert Neely

The way to go is https://www.logos.com/product/49819/mobile-ed-learn-to-use-biblical-greek-and-hebrew-with-logos-6

These courses teach you to use the tools in Logos to get to those nuggets in the biblical languages without the years of memorizing vocabulary and learning grammar.

EastTN

As to the actual words, terms, etc. (eg. Lemma, root, etc.) I'd suggest that you check out the Bible Greek Study videos by Bill Mounce. Once you've done those, you might want to, pick up his Basics of Biblical Greek set and begin working through it (other introductions are available).

I would second everything Liam had to say. As an aside, the Mounce videos are also available as part of this set: Zondervan Biblical Languages Video Lectures (2 vols.). Personally, I found working through the videos, Mounce's grammar and the associated workbook at the same time very helpful. (The grammar and workbook are both in the Basics of Biblical Greek set.) Languages don't come easily for me, so I needed all the help I could get.

Adam Olean

Hi, Landon. I would seriously consider Biblical Language Center's Live Video Classes. You won't regret it. There's a special discount for a husband and wife (or any other two from the same household) taking classes together. You can also get a discount from former students. Feel free to send me a private message via faithlife.com. (As an aside, I've greatly appreciated and benefited from James White's ministry as well!)

Here are some of my related posts for whatever they're worth:

http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?p=30940&sid=3c1251fdcd99dd3a03376cd44492b6a6#p30934

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/151448/927046.aspx#927046

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/152646/930616.aspx#930616

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/76863/929148.aspx#929148

May God bless you and your wife in your studies! It'd be awesome to learn together.

Michael S.

The way to go is https://www.logos.com/product/49819/mobile-ed-learn-to-use-biblical-greek-and-hebrew-with-logos-6

These courses teach you to use the tools in Logos to get to those nuggets in the biblical languages without the years of memorizing vocabulary and learning grammar.

I also second this recommendation as a starter place in Logos.

Paul

While the recommendations are spot on if you really and truly want to learn the original languages. These two books will probably give you what you want as far as being able to read commentaires and understand other people's arguments better. Having said that, and I say this as a linguist who is more than aware that in any translation meaning is both added and lost...if you have to make your argument based solely on the original language, it probably isn't a very strong one.

https://www.logos.com/product/40499/greek-for-the-rest-of-us-2nd-ed

https://www.logos.com/product/34172/hebrew-for-the-rest-of-us

Liam Maguire

If you have to make your argument based solely on the original language, it probably isn't a very strong one.

+1. This is sage advice... and a helpful reminder. Thank you.

Josh

Have not tried it myself yet, but I've heard good things about the BibleMesh greek program: https://courses.biblemesh.com/greek/greek-first-steps-reading-1-bundle

Leesa Johnson

You can make greek/ Hebrew language easy by practicing on a regular basis, by joining a group of language experts online. Vocabulary collection
must be solid for better conversation, so do practice for it. Thank you.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

Even truly understanding things such as lexicons and root, lemma ext,?

A Lexicon is a dictionary. Lemma is the dictionary form of a word. Root is a grouping of lemma's.

Greek and Hebrew modify (conjugate) word spelling to show grammatical usage. English tends to spell possessive (genitive) use different while using same word form for other grammatical usages. Some English Grammar resources to consider:

English Grammar to Ace New Testament Greek
English Grammar to Ace Biblical Hebrew
English Grammar for Bible Language Students
Grammatical Concepts 101 for Biblical Greek: Learning Biblical Greek Grammatical Concepts through English Grammar
Grammatical Concepts 101 for Biblical Hebrew

My favorite Logos & Verbum feature is visual filter highlighting so can "see" range of Greek verbal expression in appropriately tagged resources (plus more). Logos Wiki has => Examples of visual filters that includes links to forum threads => more inductive symbols and How to identify words added by translators in ESV using Visual Filter?

Screen shot shows Propositional Outlines with many visual filters: Greek Discourse plus precepts and Greek morphology (did not have Anarthrous enabled).

Thankful for free Basic and Verbum Basic including two Bibles with Reverse Interlinear tagging so can use visual filters to "see" nuanced Greek verbal expression.

Anarthrous use in Greek shows quality. Some anarthrous use has finger pointer aspect from preposition phrase. Definite article also has finger pointer aspect. An example is 1 John 4 verses 8 and 16 where English "God is Love" translates "The God is Love" where Greek grammar shows "The God" (finger pointer) is being Love (quality). Present tense verb shows continual action in present time. Active reflects state of reality.

If Greek had definite article on both sides of verb εἰμί then grammar would show complete equality. Since definite article is present for God while lacking for Love (anarthrous), then Love is a quality of "The God"

Since visual filters can search and show aspects of Greek grammatical usage, another resource to consider is Chapman's New Testament-Greek Notebook or Greek New Testament Insert

Note: Philippians 4:4-8 has six verbs in the imperative mood.

Hebrew is a bit different than English: e.g. opposite direction for reading. Most Hebrew words have a three letter consonant root. Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible includes Bible Senses and Greek alignments

Keep Smiling [:)]

Michael S.

Keep Smiling

Very nice post! It was helpful to me.

DAL

These lectures are awesome and you can pace yourself. They follow the textbooks and workbooks of Basics of Biblical Greek and Hebrew. Very well done: https://www.logos.com/product/34026/zondervan-biblical-languages-video-lectures

DAL

DMB

... Having said that, and I say this as a linguist who is more than aware that in any translation meaning is both added and lost...if you have to make your argument based solely on the original language, it probably isn't a very strong one.

That's an interesting point, though large amounts of doctrine turn on a single OL word. In the denomination I grew up in, we had our greek words down to a science (but didn't know greek).

I've argued a comparison of translations is better than OL .... simply because translations are (usually) from recognized experts .... versus language wanna-be's. But that said, simply quoting translations is not likely to impress. And may not correctly support ones denomination.

Hamilton Ramos

Greetings DAL:

A little late to ask, but, is it true that Spanish is one of the closest languages to Koine? If so any recommendation to study Koine using Spanish (L8 resource)?

Are you aware of any resource comparing English, German, Spanish and Koine grammar to extract commonalities, and facilitate reading?

Thanks ahead of time for any input.

Manuel Maria

Hamilton, I'm Spanish and I can assure you the greek and Spanish lexicons and inflections are not related. But in Spanish we have more verbal tenses than in English so that could help to understand greek tenses.

Hamilton Ramos

Thank you Manuel.

Check the following:

http://griegokoinebiblico.blogspot.com/2013/09/historia-del-idioma-griego.html

You can share then your impressions, read also the intro:

http://griegokoinebiblico.blogspot.com/2013/09/introduccion-y-prefacio.html

As you say Koine is not identical to Es, but they suggest that Es is closest:

In some other web site, there was a German author that compared German, Latin and English, comparing and contrasting the grammar to facilitate learning.

I am wondering if someone has thought of doing Spanish / Koine, and then English, German, Latin comparative studies to allow to understand commonalities, differences, and the like to allow reading ability proficiency.

Kind regards.

Beloved Amodeo

Hi Landon,

I'm late to the party so you've probably already made your decision about the resources you should purchase but, as a fellow layperson with an early interest in the original languages I offer you my view on the matter. Before I took the plunge into a serious study of the languages I found the Hebrew-Greek Key Word Study Bible edited by Spiros Zodhiates to provide a very helpful introduction to the keywords of the Bible from a theological perspective. Once I used this as my main study Bible for a couple of years and saw that my interest went beyond a mere passing one I started building my Logos library of OL resources. Of the various approaches mentioned in this thread, I would recommend the Mounce and Van Pelt video and Hebrew and Greek resources. These will provide you with a near classroom like exposure to the languages.

I'm still a neophyte when it comes to the languages and my unfulfilled desire is to take seminary level courses in Biblical Hebrew and Greek. I wish you well on your journey.

Adam Olean

Hi, Landon. I would seriously consider Biblical Language Center's Live Video Classes. You won't regret it. There's a special discount for a husband and wife (or any other two from the same household) taking classes together. You can also get a discount from former students. Feel free to send me a private message via faithlife.com. (As an aside, I've greatly appreciated and benefited from James White's ministry as well!)

Here are some of my related posts for whatever they're worth:

http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?p=30940&sid=3c1251fdcd99dd3a03376cd44492b6a6#p30934

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/151448/927046.aspx#927046

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/152646/930616.aspx#930616

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/76863/929148.aspx#929148

May God bless you and your wife in your studies! It'd be awesome to learn together.

I still couldn't recommend BLC's Live Video Classes more highly, despite my prior and growing experience with Biblical and Modern Hebrew. I'm just about to take a third semester with them. If they had offered these classes when I started Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew, I would have begun with them in a heartbeat!

Here's a List of Hebrew Resources that some might find useful. It's a selective, collaborative list that I'm gradually working on with some other advanced students and instructors of both Biblical and Modern Hebrew.

Puddin’

Hi, Landon. I would seriously consider Biblical Language Center's Live Video Classes. You won't regret it. There's a special discount for a husband and wife (or any other two from the same household) taking classes together. You can also get a discount from former students. Feel free to send me a private message via faithlife.com. (As an aside, I've greatly appreciated and benefited from James White's ministry as well!)

Here are some of my related posts for whatever they're worth:

http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?p=30940&sid=3c1251fdcd99dd3a03376cd44492b6a6#p30934

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/151448/927046.aspx#927046

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/152646/930616.aspx#930616

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/76863/929148.aspx#929148

May God bless you and your wife in your studies! It'd be awesome to learn together.

I still couldn't recommend BLC's Live Video Classes more highly, despite my prior and growing experience with Biblical and Modern Hebrew. I'm just about to take a third semester with them. If they had offered these classes when I started Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew, I would have begun with them in a heartbeat!

Here's a List of Hebrew Resources that some might find useful. It's a selective, collaborative list that I'm gradually working on with some other advanced students and instructors of both Biblical and Modern Hebrew.

I am currently taking Van Pelt’s Hebrew class. Love it!

BTW, Dr. Maury Robertson also offers classes online: https://greekforeveryone.com/author/admin/

Dr. Robertson’s courses are only $8.00/Mo. and he is always available for difficult spots via either telephone or email. He ALWAYS responds w.in a day or two (95% of the time it’s the next day). His course is equivalent to one years worth of university morphology (you get a completion certificate stating so at the end). He also has Greek II courses for the same amount.

Hamilton Ramos

Hi Beloved:

With respect to your recommendations, are there parallel resources that can be used in the following?:

https://www.logos.com/product/9438/amg-bible-essentials

I ask because the exact title for the first resource is found in Kindle, but not in Logos.

How about:

https://www.logos.com/product/62010/new-testament-words

Adam Olean

Hi, Landon. I would seriously consider Biblical Language Center's Live Video Classes. You won't regret it. There's a special discount for a husband and wife (or any other two from the same household) taking classes together. You can also get a discount from former students. Feel free to send me a private message via faithlife.com. (As an aside, I've greatly appreciated and benefited from James White's ministry as well!)

Here are some of my related posts for whatever they're worth:

http://ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/viewtopic.php?p=30940&sid=3c1251fdcd99dd3a03376cd44492b6a6#p30934

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/151448/927046.aspx#927046

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/152646/930616.aspx#930616

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/76863/929148.aspx#929148

May God bless you and your wife in your studies! It'd be awesome to learn together.

I still couldn't recommend BLC's Live Video Classes more highly, despite my prior and growing experience with Biblical and Modern Hebrew. I'm just about to take a third semester with them. If they had offered these classes when I started Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew, I would have begun with them in a heartbeat!

Here's a List of Hebrew Resources that some might find useful. It's a selective, collaborative list that I'm gradually working on with some other advanced students and instructors of both Biblical and Modern Hebrew.

I am currently taking Van Pelt’s Hebrew class. Love it!

BTW, Dr. Maury Robertson also offers classes online: https://greekforeveryone.com/author/admin/

Dr. Robertson’s courses are only $8.00/Mo. and he is always available for difficult spots via either telephone or email. He ALWAYS responds w.in a day or two (95% of the time it’s the next day). His course is equivalent to one years worth of university morphology (you get a completion certificate stating so at the end). He also has Greek II courses for the same amount.

Good to know! I'm glad to hear those classes are working out so well for you. Even as someone who often prefers studying on my own, I recognize that a good instructor can definitely be a boon. Likewise, with good classmates!

BLC's Live Video Classes are different from most in that 90–95%+ of class time is spent in the target language: listening, speaking, reading, communicating/dialoguing, and playing in the language. The first part of Living Biblical Hebrew includes video-picture lessons, in which you absorb Hebrew as Hebrew (or Greek as Greek), not just learning about a language that you don't actually know or haven't begun internalizing as a second-language. They begin immediately with words, phrases, and full sentences that develop eventually into short stories. The picture lessons transition from watching, listening, and speaking to passively and actively reading, as text is added alongside the pictures and audio. As a translator and linguist with several decades of experience, Buth's materials offer plenty for those who want to sink their teeth into the finer points of grammar and translation—along with so many other aspects of the languages (literary, discourse/text linguistics, phonology, etc.). They prioritize internalizing the language, however, through second-language acquisition techniques and processes. It's a lot of fun too, oftentimes like going back and being a kid again playing in the language!

Beloved Amodeo

Hi Beloved:

With respect to your recommendations, are there parallel resources that can be used in the following?:

https://www.logos.com/product/9438/amg-bible-essentials

I ask because the exact title for the first resource is found in Kindle, but not in Logos.

How about:

https://www.logos.com/product/62010/new-testament-words

Hi Hamilton!

I hope I don't muddle your meaning. AMG is the publisher of the Key Word Study Bible as far as I know it is only available in paper format. However, as you have discovered Spiros is the author of two lexical aids that key off of Strong's numbers for both Hebrew and Greek and work in parallel with many other lexical resources available in Logos format.

If you desire to stay with resources available in Logos format the AMG bundle is a terrific buy. I own it and used it a great deal early on. I now, however, prefer BDB, DBL, and HALOT for Hebrew and BDAG and Louw Nida for Greek. As far as New Testament Words, I'm unfamiliar with it so I can give you no opinion on it.

Matt Hamrick

Landon, since you already do Mobile Ed you should start with the courses for learning the language Mobile Ed produces. You should also acquire Zondervan's courses that teach Greek and Hebrew and the videos you can also acquire. That's four different instructor's (2 Greek, 2 Hebrew) teaching first year grammar which will give you a foundation for greater studies later. Be consistent and help each other. It is possible to learn the languages using the bible software. But it will take time and consistency. Enjoy your studies.