FEATURE REQUEST - DATE PICKER for Lectionary on Home Page
I love having the Daily Lectionary quick link for Today's Readings available on the home page. I use this all the time.
I wish that we could right click the "Today" link and select a date right from the Home Page Card (I am aware that you can open it up then select a new date). That would be very helpful!
Also, I do miss the Readings themselves being listed on the Home Card (this was removed in V8/L8 but was present on the home page in V7/L7). Can this be brought back?
Comments
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Hi Chris!
We discussed this issue here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/173848.aspx
It's definitely on the list of things we are working on updating in Verbum 8.
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awesome! Thanks so much!
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Hello all. Thanks for sharing your feedback about Lectionary card.
When we set out to design the new Homepage, one of our guiding principles is that the Homepage is not a place to *get work done*, but a place to launch you in to the work.
We removed the date picker functionality as a result of that guiding principle.
We've heard loud and clear that the date picker functionality is really important to many people who are part of a liturgical tradition.
We're going to bring the date picker functionality back to this card as soon as we can. I'm working with our design team on how we'll do that. We'll get it prioritized and will start work on it. When we have a date for it's release, the Verbum team will announce.
I hope that in the meantime I hope you enjoy some of the great tools and content we launched with 8.
Cheers,
Daniel
Product Manager
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
We're going to bring the date picker functionality back to this card as soon as we can. I'm working with our design team on how we'll do that. We'll get it prioritized and will start work on it. When we have a date for it's release, the Verbum team will announce.
Please reassure me that you will also straighten out the mess that was made of Saints which was built to work with a specific sanctoral calendar i.e. Saints. Bellingham, WA: Verbum, 2013.
The problem is that this resource is in alphabetic order and the new card assumes calendar order.
Because it would allow for users to create their own PB sanctoral cycles and allows a number of existing resources to be used, my preference is that the resource have a new edition rather than reverting the behavior back.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi all,
We're working on bringing back the date-picker functionality.
Does this meet your Lectionary card needs?
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That would be great!
Not sure if you could also list the readings on the card like the box in Verbum 7 had? That way we can see what the Scripture passages are from the card itself without having to open the card to see the list (opening the card would actually show the passage), but if the card could have the scripture listing that would be great!0 -
Daniel Di Bartolo said:
Does this meet your Lectionary card needs?
Almost or I would say yes except ...there is a related issue of multiple entries for the same day, not common but it does need to be handled - on the card and from the date picker. And for some lectionaries, what is the behavior if there is no entry for the selected date?
Cases to look at to be sure you have things handled using Catholic lectionary:
- Christmas - multiple services for a single day
- Easter - vigil has maximum number of readings for a service; multiple services for a single day
- with the current state of how I can view the lectionary it's not easy to check for choice of celebration - I think Thanksgiving is an example
- no service -Saturday before Easter; any weekday for all but the daily RCL versions
If scriptures are shown one must handle
- long/short forms of the reading See Fifth Sunday of Lent
- alternative readings See Monday of the First Week of Advent
- choice between sets of readings See Presentation of the Virgin Mary
Another issue: one should be able to place a lectionary with only future dates on the Home Page e.g. when someone build the Season of Creation lectionary as a shared PB, there is no need to build in prior dates ... and the season only includes 4 Sundays of September ... but one needs to be able to see them in advance for planning purposes.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Chris K said:
but if the card could have the scripture listing that would be great!
I agree with you that having scripture listed is desirable. IIRC it is on Fr. Devin's must have list. But we also have to have it handle all situations - multiple services for a given liturgical day ; choice of celebration for a given liturgical date (optional memorials); no services for the day (Holy Saturday); if readings are included the Easter Vigil has something like 24 readings ... And that's just thinking of 1 lectionary [;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Chris K said:
That would be great! Not sure if you could also list the readings on the card like the box in Verbum 7 had? That way we can see what the Scripture passages are from the card itself without having to open the card to see the list (opening the card would actually show the passage), but if the card could have the scripture listing that would be great!
Seconded; please restore this. Also please restore the ability to open just the Lectionary rather defaulting to your gargantuan layout.
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Sean said:
Also please restore the ability to open just the Lectionary rather defaulting to your gargantuan layout.
I may mis-remember, but isn't this properly a matter of saving a lectionary only layout as the homepage lectionary layout? I'd prefer consistency in how defaults are overridden rather than a new mechanism ... I wouldn't be keen on different behavior if you click different places on the card unless there are a group of cards with that behavior.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Chris K said:Sean said:
Seconded; please restore this. Also please restore the ability to open just the Lectionary rather defaulting to your gargantuan layout.
i agree! I prefer we have the option to just open the lectionary itself.
I see we do have the means of changing the default layouts that open:
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So that's nice. But the other L7 functions like changing the date or just opening the Lectionary need to be restored. I don't know if they were simplified for beginning users, but a loss of functionality is rarely good.
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Sean said:
I don't know if they were simplified for beginning users, but a loss of functionality is rarely good.
They were changed for a couple of reasons:
- possibly the designer not knowing lectionaries and their use intimately and running out of time for the iterative process to get it right
- for certain, the behavior of a card-style UI is intended to be very clean and simple so that it will work across a wide range of screen sizes. This results in a pick from a card/selection options on the next page style of interface ... the loss of home page functionality holds for nearly all the cards. IIRC Reading Plans manage to retain a bit of home page functionality.
I am actually more concerned with the loss of functionality in the Saints tool where it appears that an intentional change was made without understanding that it was incompatible with the L7 functionality ... even conceptually incompatible.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
Hi all,
We're working on bringing back the date-picker functionality.
Does this meet your Lectionary card needs?
Thanks Daniel. That would be the absolute bare minimum needed for it to work. However, I would much prefer that choosing the date simply update the card. There are a few reasons for this.
First, it allows the possibility of future developments along the lines of what MJ has been mentioning, where one might be able to choose from different options available on that date. That would be a really nice addition for both the Lectionary and Saint cards. Secondly, I have with some frequency found myself using the date picker to search for a feast day, when I remember it is around a certain date, but am not sure exactly which it is. I would choose the dates until I found it.
Thirdly, currently the only reliable way to correctly "navigate" the Lectionary layout to a certain liturgical date is from this card. That is, once I open the Lectionary layout to a certain date, I don't have a reliable way to navigate the whole layout to a different date except from the homepage card. This is the case even if I put the Lectionary-date-based-resources into a linkset. They simply don't navigate reliably together, even though they try.
Verbum allows users to place Lectionaries, Missals, and resources like "Catholic Daily Readings" in the same linkset. However, they don't navigate together reliably. This is something that could and should be fixed. Once it is fixed, the default Liturgy layout should be updated to automatically place all Lectionary-based-resources in Linkset B by default. That will help quite a bit! It would also help if the Lectionary-based-resources actually included a calendar drop-down in the navigation bar, so that you could type into the navigation bar, or open the calendar-drop-down.
This is a very different situation from the Passage Layout, where I can simply type in a new passage, and everything navigates correctly. This makes the Passage Layout more flexible and usable than the Lectionary layout.
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Regarding the question as to whether to open the Lectionary layout or only the Catholic Daily Readings or equivalent resource when you click on the card, personally I prefer that it open the layout. In v7, both options were actually present. If you had resources already open, it would simply open the Catholic Daily Readings. If nothing was open, it would open the layout. I never was a fan of that behavior, but it could be a compromise solution.
Another option would be to simply add an option to the "..." menu where the "Remove card" option appears, which would allow you to specify whether the Layout or the resource opens. That would be ideal solution I think, as there are understandably different preferences regarding this.
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Fr Devin Roza said:
First, it allows the possibility of future developments along the lines of what MJ has been mentioning,
The code needs to handle them correctly whether or not they are made visible to the user. Think of them as a minimum set of test cases that must work in the solution even if work merely means show the first you run into.
Daniel -
I have no objections to any of the options Fr. Devin suggests ... not always my first choice but nothing objectionable.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Daniel,
This works for me quite well, thank you. I do agree with some of the other comments about including multiple readings for a single day. Also, is the Saints card synced with the date-picker for the Readings? That would be a great feature, or a date-picker for the Saints card.
Also, I would love to customize my Homepage as my workplace. I really DO NOT like the scrolling list that currently is there. I realize it might be a generational "thing." I'm in my 70s and like things clear and simple that I control. All these cards are of was e of space and clutter up the screen. I'd like to delete/add what I want on the first screen, so I can have better functionality. This is a tool for enhancing my research; not a community gathering place. IMHO.
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Fr Brian Cavanaugh said:
Also, I would love to customize my Homepage as my workplace. I really DO NOT like the scrolling list that currently is there. I realize it might be a generational "thing." I'm in my 70s and like things clear and simple that I control. All these cards are of was e of space and clutter up the screen. I'd like to delete/add what I want on the first screen, so I can have better functionality. This is a tool for enhancing my research; not a community gathering place. IMHO.
You have found that you can customize the top portion with the circled plus sign? It took me a while to find it so I thought I'd mention it. Customizing the bottom portion is coming.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
Does this meet your Lectionary card needs?
For a Lectionary Card on the Home Screen it is the minimum.
However I would like to see the readings for the Sunday on the card as well.
If there are, in a particular lectionary multiple services on a single day then the services could be listed and the readings shown in a pop-up?
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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For those who would like multiple readings listed on the card... how far in advance do you usually read? What is your primary use case for accessing different dates' readings from the Homepage?
Thanks for helping us understand what you'd like to have here.
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I'm looking a month ahead in light of the preaching schedule at my parish. Sometimes up to six weeks depending on the current theme.
With that said, I don't think there is some distinct near-term time frame. For example, I'm starting to look ahead to Christmas to see if there is something I would want to refer as we walk toward that liturgical season.
Using the software development term "use case" I would plan for a basic/fundamental understanding of the liturgical calendar. That's really what we are talking about here. If you want your software design to be durable, the cycle of readings present in the liturgical calendar needs to be inherent in the "card", or however that functionality is presented in the future. All those future dates and associated readings extend for years/decades.
Please review Fr. Devin's comments as you work to a solution.
Thanks for the questions.
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
For those who would like multiple readings listed on the card... how far in advance do you usually read? What is your primary use case for accessing different dates' readings from the Homepage?
Thanks for helping us understand what you'd like to have here.
I think typically one would prepare a week or two in advance, but for special feast days a month or two in advance wouldn't be strange. That being said, in v7, the calendar could handle any date within a few years, I believe. I know when Fr Andrew and I were preparing the Homiletics videos we were looking at dates 6 months to a year away from the current date and it was working properly.
As regards the different dates readings questions, there are actually two separate feature requests that have been mentioned that you might be referring to here. In both cases, the card would only display 1 liturgy and 1 date at a time.
1. List the readings of the selected liturgy - Each liturgy has multiple readings. In v6 and v7, the liturgy "card" displayed the name of the liturgical day, followed by a listing of the readings from that specific liturgy. This allowed the user to click on a specific reading, and the Liturgy Layout would open up, not only to the correct day and liturgy, but also to the reading that the user clicked on.
How did I use this, and why? It was certainly convenient to see at a glance the readings. But it was also useful for a reason that could be fixed in a design where you can't see the readings.... The Liturgy Layout opens up by default to the First Reading of the day, usually from the Old Testament or the letters of Paul. However, usually we preach primarily from the Gospel, and read the First Reading in light of the Gospel. Because of this I like to start by reading the Gospel. So, instead of just clicking to open the Liturgy Layout on the Header, I would click on the Gospel reading, so that it would open up the Liturgy Layout with the Gospel open. If this became the default behavior, for me listing the readings wouldn't be terribly important (but would be nice, just to be able to see them at a glance).
Note that one thing that complicates this feature request from a UI perspective is that, while most Liturgies have just 3 or 4 readings - possibly pretty easy to accommodate - there are some special liturgies that have more. The most famous case is the Easter Vigil, where there are a total of 17 readings!!! 7 readings from the Old Testament, 7 Psalms, 1 reading from St. Paul, 1 Gospel Acclamation, and 1 Gospel!
2. When more than one liturgy is available on a day, allow users to choose between them - The other request, which I consider more useful (especially if the Liturgy Layout opens to the Gospel), is related to the fact that on many days there are options. Looking through the Catholic Daily Readings resource, the next date in which there are options is on November 13. The default liturgy would be "TUESDAY OF THE THIRTY-SECOND WEEK IN ORDINARY TIME". However, the option is given to celebrate "SAINT FRANCES XAVIER CABRINI, VIRGIN." Ideally on a date like this, there would be some sort of indication that there are options, with a drop-down where the user could select the liturgy they prefer.
This could be something as simple as what Windows does for its audio playback. The arrow on the right indicates there are options:
When I click on it, I can see the options and select the one I want:
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I second Fr. Roza's idea for the Arrow to show/select options for the day.
I know the origninal intent for FL was to have the cards be very simple views, but adding in these features to important cards like the Lectionary Card (and as MJ proposed, the Saints card) would make the UI/Home Dashboard much more powerful and convenient - not only for study/preparation, but also for quick reference!
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Thank you for working on this. I agree that the Lectionary and Saints cards needs some work. At the moment all the Cards in the top section of the dashboard are 1x1, whereas there are cards in the bottom section that are 2x1 or 2x2. I would ask that we could choose what size the cards are - so to include that in the dropdown, or perhaps allow them to be resized with the /// in the bottom right corner (as in this forum's Description rich-text box). The card could also enlarge when there is more content, e.g. at Easter.
But it would be nice if I could, for example have a small or larger 'Verse of the Day' and to move the cards around and choose their size according to my preference.
Personally, I like seeing the readings listed so that I can hover over them quickly just to get a sense in the beginning of the day so I know what to think about and then when I'm sitting down to write I would click on the Liturgy Layout and use it that way.
Another option might be to have a card that has the calendar (the Mon-Sun monthly calendar with the options to select a date) be displayed as a card and when you click on that the other cards that can be linked to that (by default Saints, Lectionary, Devotionals?) update...
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If I may be so bold as to propose a possible mock-up of a card with the features described for picking alternate feasts/celebrations of the day, as well as an option to show additional readings of the feast. (please note the readings listed don't line up to the Tuesday of the 32 Week of Ordinary Time).
Instead of the plus sign (pending on how the UI is coded) the card could also "grow" longer to accommodate a larger reading list on special days, so the home page would be more of a tiled/masonry look vs. a uniformed look. Or it took take the height of 2 cards when needed.
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Chris, try your mockup on Holy Thursday of the Byzantine lectionary or the Vigil Mass of the Catholic lectionary. Will your design support these maximum cases? For the computer design perspective we have to always consider both the minimum (zero for Holy Saturday) and the maximums. I have not personally tried to work out the font size forced by extreme cases.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Chris, try your mockup on Holy Thursday of the Byzantine lectionary or the Vigil Mass of the Catholic lectionary. Will your design support these maximum cases? For the computer design perspective we have to always consider both the minimum (zero for Holy Saturday) and the maximums. I have not personally tried to work out the font size forced by extreme cases.
That I would have to leave up to the FL programmers - my main goal was to give an idea/capture the essence of the features that were mentioned. I would think the zeros would be easy (blank card). The maximums might need to use an "..." for text too long - as is the case with many things that the text doesn't fit the required space. When opened in the layout, it would then show the full title. I do have the "+" sign (bottom right) to accommodate the additional readings - or, as suggested, possibly increasing the height of the card for those occasions.
How did V7 handle the maximums? Were they shortened at all? Right now V8 is using the "..." for the current date in the Roman Catholic Lectionary: "Tuesday of the Thirty-First Week in..." so my guess it would continue that as necessary. I don't think the card needs to utilize that big of a font as it is currently, a smaller font to fit more content/features in the card would work.
As it stands now, the card is about the same size (albeit horizontal vs. vertical as the space in V7 used for the Lectionary preview, so I think it is possible to "cram" all the requested things into the space in a way that would work. The liturgical color ribbon could also be shrunk down to allow for more space (I definitely like the color present on the card - but in the current design it takes up a lot of real estate that might be used better for these features - perhaps just a stripe running along one of the sides would be enough (though a line/shading to help distinguish the white) or maybe the Header area of the card can be the liturgical color?
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Nice design, Chris.
I would be fine with a "..." if the readings don't fit on some days, as long as it is designed so that on a typical weekday or Sunday they fit.
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
For those who would like multiple readings listed on the card... how far in advance do you usually read? What is your primary use case for accessing different dates' readings from the Homepage?
I swear I posted a response that disappeared into thin air. From the question, I am not sure you understand what I was trying to point you to in the examples:
- On a given liturgical date you may have a choice of what to celebrate e.g. Thanksgiving or the saint of the day
- Once you have chosen what will be celebrated you may have multiple services - vigil, daybreak, during the day - all of which may be used
- Once you know what you are celebrating and for what service, you may have a choice of reading sets identified by a lectionary number
- Once you have it down to a lectionary number, you may have a choice of long/short readings and alternative readings.
- You are now down to the 2-22 readings for the specific service.
All of the above was shown on the home page side bar in Logos 7. I am not convinced that all that functionality can be transformed to a card format even with hover capabilities. Or put another way, it may be possible but with such an abuse of the card concept that it may not be wise.
Therefore, it may be necessary to enhance the behavior of the lectionary layout to compensate for the loss on the home page. This would include:
- opening with the focus on the Gospel
- easy navigation to cycle through the readings Gospel, first, second, third ... names vary by lectionary
- easy navigation to (a) other services for the date (b) other celebration for the day (c) previous/next day (d) previous/next Sunday
In addition, a personal lectionary must be selectable even if all dates are future - recent example, a European lectionary for the 2018-2019 year.
Further, the Saints cannot simply copy the lectionary logic without a reworking of the Sanctoral cycle (calendar of saints universally celebrated) for Catholics and the creation of equivalent resources for Lutherans and Anglicans (information on wikipedia is reasonable accurate for this).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Just another possibility to free up real estate on the card (not too thrilled with how the ribbon looks, but this is just a quick idea mock-up).
This would give more space on the card for displaying more readings/options/etc.
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Chris K said:
How did V7 handle the maximums?
The problem did not occur in L7 because the sidebar had no vertical constraints - the card format is based on:
- cards of a consistent size
- cards of minimal functionality with a clean design so that on small screens a quick glance is all you need in order to make your selection
- cards that can maintain their format and function across as many platforms as practical
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that we need to think not just how to get L7 functionality into L8 but also how to keep L8 internally consistent.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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