ANNOUNCEMENT: End of support for Windows 7, Windows 8.1 & MacOS 10.11–10.13
Comments
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PetahChristian, Bradley, and Mark: thank you all so very much for your comments, empathy, and clarifying information! Your kindness and expertise are, in my mind, evidences of your genuine love for God, and what He is doing through this software. Blessings.
What I'm learning from you is that Logos documents (called "books" on your website) are not just text and image (in computer lingo) files combined, like on a web page. It's the indexing process, the interconnection between resources that requires the datatype mobility, and thus software upgrades. An example would be a link to the Timeline Tool when a date is mentioned.
But if people want merely words and images, without some of that interconnectivity, then I presume books will be readable, just not able to jump to, say, the timeline from the text you're reading.
I still think it a wise idea, since a good portion of your client base is made of senior citizens on extremely limited incomes, to allow download of new *book* resources only, and not software upgrades, by older software versions.
That way, Logos and Faithlife become *ministries* over businesses. But then again, I don't have to pay salaries for the corporation, do I? [;)]
Paul L. White, Satisfied Logos User since 1.6
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Paul L. White said:
But if people want merely words and images, without some of that interconnectivity, then I presume books will be readable, just not able to jump to, say, the timeline from the text you're reading.
As a senior citizen on a fixed income and a retiree in a career in IT, I have to say "nope, doesn't work that way". The system has to recognize the tagging in the text for it to be able to "just not be able to jump to". The software already ignores the tagging for features you do not own but it has to recognize that you don't have access to those features. The ways one can externalize this knowledge to make it possible to do more without changing the software have additional costs in execution time, et. al. Don't confuse adding data for an existing feature (as in the timeline example) to adding a new feature that requires a new kind of tagging.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Paul L. White said:
What I'm learning from you is that Logos documents (called "books" on your website) are not just text and image (in computer lingo) files combined, like on a web page. It's the indexing process, the interconnection between resources that requires the datatype mobility, and thus software upgrades. An example would be a link to the Timeline Tool when a date is mentioned.
But if people want merely words and images, without some of that interconnectivity, then I presume books will be readable, just not able to jump to, say, the timeline from the text you're reading.
I still think it a wise idea, since a good portion of your client base is made of senior citizens on extremely limited incomes, to allow download of new *book* resources only, and not software upgrades, by older software versions.
Your description isn't quite accurate. Let me give an example.
Let's imagine Faithlife a release a new book. There's nothing technically innovative about it. Like most books it has page numbers, and contains lots of Bible references, but that's about all. This book will very likely be able to be used by older versions of the software.
But then they release another book. This is a reference book, that has its own reference scheme. Instead of page numbers, it has sections and paragraphs, so other resources that refer to it use a naming scheme like ABC 1.7, or ABC 8.9. This reference system hasn't been used in Logos before, as it's unique to this book. A new version of Logos will need to be released in order to support this reference scheme, and therefore this book will only be able to be used with the latest version of the software.
(This is one example of why some new books will require the latest version of the software. There are other possible reasons too, but I hope this is sufficient to explain why it isn't possible to fully disconnect resources from software versions.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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No surprise that you're helping to usher Christians into a system that promises much, delivers little, and does everything on the condition of the consumer who must agree to continue releasing their information into its "cloud." I'm sure the reaction to my comment will spark a great deal push back, but I don't care. When I first signed up with Logos, I was proud of a product that sought to stand outside of the bookstores and other resources that limited access to Christian. But I can't recognize you anymore. You look no different than the Christian bookstores whose difference can barely be seen apart from the bumper stickers and mugs all proclaiming one God, but relying heavily on another god to get that message out to the masses.
So I'm looking forward to the end of Maintenance Support if only be separated from the deception.
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I have the Mac version of logos. My MacBook Pro is from the mid 2010 and I run macOS High Sierra. According to this announcement it appears that I will need to get a new MacBook every four years sense El Capitan was released about four years ago and now will not receive any updates. If this is true I will admit this makes me very upset since I put so much money to buying this library that’s is supposed to be cheaper than print books but if I have to buy a MacBook every four years and they cost around $1200 and they can get pretty expensive pretty quickly. Can you confirm that I will or will not need to get a new MacBook every for five years just to have updated versions of my logos?
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I have a MacBook. According to this announcement it appears that I will have to get a new MacBook about every four years, since El Capitan came out about four years ago. With MacBooks Starting at around $1000-$1200 getting a new MacBook every four years just so I can run my logos is pretty expensive. Can you confirm for me whether or not this means I will have to get a new MacBook every four years just to continue the updates on my logos?
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Not if you update your macOS every year (which is free). Your Macbook will be fine until Apple makes a macOS that it cannot run. Then it will be a few years after that when Logos will not run on the last supported macOS for your Macbook.
Based on your post before this last one, it's about every 9-10 years, not four.
A 2010 Macbook Pro would work until 2019.
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Thank you Levi.
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So, I know that I am in the minority, but this message bothers me significantly. First of all, I have been a Logos customer since the early 1990s and I have spent thousands of dollars on new material and especially upgrades to the program and its features. Second, I purchased my computer when the latest and best Windows was 8.1. When the upgrade to 10 became available, it crashed my system. After a week with a Microsoft tech, I learned that a number of key drivers needed were never going to be updated to be Windows 10 compliant. Now, I am being told that the only system you will support is Windows 10 64 bit? I cannot afford to buy a new computer. I can't afford to spend any more on Logos. This is more than frustrating. I have lost all faith in Faithlife.
GMS
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garymstevens said:
So, I know that I am in the minority, but this message bothers me significantly
I understand why you are bothered but I also recognize that no software company can support all older OS for long ... it's like asking them to drag Greenland behind them. However, most communities have a source for free refurbished computers for students and fixed income people. https://pocketsense.com/computers-low-income-families-5015.html may be a place to start (I don't know where you live so I can't be more specific.) I would hope others in the forums could give you more specific referrals.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I understand and empathize with these complaints. Earlier this century, I was stuck between computer upgrades for about 10 years. I had Libronix on my system during those years as the latest versions of Logos passed me by. I even wrote two theses with that, and oh, a faster system and Logos 4+ would have made those much easier.
Everyone's situation is different, but I think many concerned users will be able to function with their current version of Logos for a long time, even if they aren't able to update anymore--and let's face it, if you can't afford to upgrade your computer, you likely can't afford much in the way of a base package when the newest version of Logos rolls out. But there's another option I don't think I've seen mentioned in this thread yet--the Logos web app at https://app.logos.com/ . It may not do everything the desktop does, but I would think it would support new books you buy even if, for some reason, you become unable to download them to your desktop program.
Finally, to speak a little more bluntly and less charitably, if you're having difficulties affording computers, you really don't have much business sticking with Macs. Comparable Windows systems are available at much lower prices. Most of my colleagues use Macs, and I see them go through constant headaches with them. So, that's something to consider as well.
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I want to thank all who responded to me, and explained so carefully the difference between old-type resources, and those that need the software updates to function. Much appreciated.
I think it would help many users to understand this event better if we knew what it is that Windows 10 will allow the new Logos versions to do that Windows 7 cannot allow? There must be some advantage to Windows 10 besides just "keeping up with Microsoft."
Thanks a million!
Paul
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Paul L. White said:
I think it would help many users to understand this event better if we knew what it is that Windows 10 will allow the new Logos versions to do that Windows 7 cannot allow? There must be some advantage to Windows 10 besides just "keeping up with Microsoft."
All software is built on an API provided by the Operating System and by other frameworks. These APIs and frameworks mean you don't have create everything from scratch, but you can utilise common functions much more easily. For example, a new version of an API or framework may make it much simpler to add a new feature to your application. Instead of adding thousands of lines of code to add the new feature, you can piggy-back on the framework's functions and do it in (perhaps) a few dozen lines of code.
The main framework Logos uses on Windows is .NET, which is provided for Microsoft. The current version of .NET runs happily on Windows 7 SP1, which is one of the reasons why Logos currently requires SP1 to be installed on Windows 7. Therefore it's unlikely that Logos will suddenly stop working on a Windows 7 SP1 machine, even after the end of support. However, IF Microsoft bring out a new version of .NET that requires Windows 10 AND Faithlife switch to that new version THEN new versions of Logos would not work on Windows 7, AT THAT POINT.
The crucial part of the announcement is this:
Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:While we don't anticipate any immediate problems using Logos on Windows 7, it will not be a priority to maintain backward compatibility with an operating system that is no longer supported by its provider.
Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:Logos 8 will continue to receive updates, but we will no longer test the application on these operating systems, nor deliver bug fixes that exclusively affect them.
Faithlife are NOT saying that Logos 8 will no longer run on Windows 7. There are saying two things:
- They can no longer guarantee that Logos 8 will run on Windows 7 for the future, because they're not going to test the app on Windows 7, and if there are bugs in Windows 7 they are not going to work around those bugs. It's entirely possible that future versions of Logos 8 will continue to work on Logos 7 – but equally, they may not.
- If Microsoft release a new version of .NET that doesn't work on Windows 7, then they may well switch to that version at that point.
(The 32-bit Windows 10 announcement is likely to be different. In that case, I would expect future versions of Logos 8 to simply not install on 32-bit Windows 10.)
In addition, there are big changes coming to .NET that it's very possible Faithlife will want to take advantage of. Keeping their development tools current is a very sensible way of ensuring they can make that transition smoothly when it's necessary.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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It is unfortunate that you have decided not to continue to support Win7 & Win8.1, because when I installed Win10 and updated to the their latest version, a lot of my programs stopped working, and I could no longer print to my printer, even though I tried reinstalling the drivers.
So I installed a version of "Stop Updates" on my Win10 laptop to keep the OS from automatically updating.
That is what I hate about Win10 - the automatic updates without anyway to opt out of them, plus the telemetry they have put into Win10.I only use Win10 on my laptop because that is what came with it, but I really don't care for it, because it looks like an old-fashioned OS and doesn't have the finished look like XP did or Win7.
I keep it off the internet as much as possible unless I need an image or something from Google images for my powerpoints that I create for each Sunday.
That said, I understand your thinking in wanting to be able to use the latest APIs from MS, but if it were me and I were a programmer, I would NOT want to depend on anything from MS in order to make my programs work.
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Thank you, Mark Barnes!
And for those who may not know what API stands for, here's what Google provides:
An application program interface (API) is a set of routines, protocols, and tools for building software applications. Basically, an API specifies how software components should interact. Additionally, APIs are used when programming graphical user interface (GUI) components.
An API is a software intermediary that allows two applications to talk to each other. In other words, an API is the messenger that delivers your request to the provider that you're requesting it from and then delivers the response back to you.
Now the move makes a lot more sense, Mark. It means your developers are at the behest of the Operating System, and that maintaining a data bank of code that will always work, no matter what the .NET version that's available, would limit the functioning of this software.
And, truth be told, it's one of the most powerful software packages ever created. For those of us with some programming experience, it baffles the mind as to what Faithlife has done, here. The graphics and inter-reference linkages are just outstanding, and the functions available are stunning (for example, the new choices menu that occurs when you highlight text).
Blessings. Your response, Mark, was just what I had in mind, and it explains a lot.
Paul
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I'm currently using a 2011 27" iMac, which is running like a dream. We originally bought it with maxed out specs and have since put an SSD drive in it.
It's a shame Logos has decided not to support a computer that is less than 10 years old. Many churches (mine included) buy hardware for long-term use, and we can't afford to drop $2,000 to get an equivalent new iMac just because one app will not work.
We've invested thousands of dollars over the years in this product, so this is disappointing news, to say the least...
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Agreed. My understanding is limited, but my husband is a software engineer at HP, and though he's committed to work with WIN 10, everything in our home is either XP and/or 7. We turned off Updates on our computer shortly after WIN8, and our computer is scanned/modified regularly to make sure which Updates actually serve our OS and what is simply another means to gather info without our knowledge.
No, we're not paranoid or conspiracy theorists. My husband comes from three generations of HP engineers and participated heavily in the creation of Brandon Eich's "Brave." They all saw changes coming way back when Carly took over HP, and were not surprised at any of what people are now writing about. Fortunately, there are a number of places one can go to work through WIN7 issues no longer covered by MS.Either way, it's not my intention to turn this into a theological discussion on consequences of these ongoing actions, otherwise known as "progress." I'm just thankful for not giving up my library of non-electronic information, which my kids have promised not to sell or destroy after I'm gone.BOOK
As a physical object, a book is a stack of usually rectangular pages (made of papyrus, parchment, vellum, or paper) oriented with one edge tied, sewn, or otherwise fixed together and then bound to the flexible spine of a protective cover of heavier, relatively inflexible material.[1] The technical term for this physical arrangement is codex (in the plural, codices). In the history of hand-held physical supports for extended written compositions or records, the codex replaces its immediate predecessor, the scroll. A single sheet in a codex is a leaf, and each side of a leaf is a page.0 -
Welcome to the forums, William.
Again, as Mark stated above, Logos is not saying that Logos will stop working on an older computer. It's just that they can't promise that it will keep working as time goes by. The original post said that Logos 8.11 or 8.12 will be the last supported version. It will continue to run on your older computer, as will others past it, until something breaks (because of Apple or Microsoft updates).
Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:Summary
On February 4, 2020, the operating systems below will enter Maintenance Support status:
- Windows 7
- Windows 8.1
- 32-bit versions of Windows 10
- MacOS 10.11 "El Capitan"
- MacOS 10.12 "Sierra"
- MacOS 10.13 "High Sierra"
By the end of 2020, these operating systems will no longer be supported for Logos Bible Software.
Background
Microsoft has announced that Windows 7 will be "end of life" on January 14, 2020. While we don't anticipate any immediate problems using Logos on Windows 7, it will not be a priority to maintain backward compatibility with an operating system that is no longer supported by its provider. We will move Windows 7 to maintenance support status at the next scheduled version, 8.11 on February 4, 2020.
Furthermore, only a small segment of Logos users are running on the older operating systems named above. In order to develop and test the application more efficiently, all of these operating systems will enter maintenance support at the same time.
What does "Maintenance Support" mean?
Logos 8 will continue to receive updates, but we will no longer test the application on these operating systems, nor deliver bug fixes that exclusively affect them.
If at any point we should discover that we are no longer able to ship updates to older operating systems, or some other serious issue arises that makes them incompatible with Logos, we will end support without further advanced notice. In any case, all of the operating systems above will be unsupported by the end of 2020.
In other words, you'll be able to continue to use Logos and even update it until an update breaks it. At that point, you can go back to the last update that works (remember to keep backups!) and continue to use Logos for a long time after that.
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I'll try and put this even more simply. This notice isn't saying existing installations are going to stop working, just that if you're on an old PC running an old OS, you're going to have to run with an old version of Logos in the future. That's surely to be expected, isn't it?
Reading between the lines, it's very likely that this notice from Faithlife simply means that:
- Logos 9, likely to be released in Q3 2020, is likely to require Windows 10 or MacOS 10.14 or higher.
- Current versions of Logos 8 will continue to run quite happily on Windows 7-8 and MacOS 10.11-10.13. There's a small possibility that later versions of Logos 8 won't run on those Operating Systems, but that's fairly unlikely.
- A relatively small number of new resources released after the launch of Logos 9 won't work on Logos 8 and earlier. Existing resources and most new resources will be unaffected.
I'll say it again. You do not have to worry that you're going to lose your investment. It's very unlikely that your existing installations are going to stop working even after 2020.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Are you going to change this since the release of the Microsoft Surface Pro X? That is my device of choice and I intend to use logos on it. Do you just mean that you aren't going to be providing Technical Support? Or will the software actually not work on the surface pro X after the deadline. I hope you'll reconsider adding support back for 32 bit windows since the release of the surface pro X may change things.
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We are not planning to bring back 32-bit support for Surface Pro X. (Nor do we plan to release an ARM64 version.)
The officially supported operating system for Logos 8 will be Windows 10 64-bit on Intel/AMD.
See other discussion here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/185519.aspx
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I use Windows 7. If I stick with Windows 7, will I lose complete access to my Logos Library at any point of time?
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Malcolm Horlock said:
I use Windows 7. If I stick with Windows 7, will I lose complete access to my Logos Library at any point of time?
What you lose is the ability to upgrade your Logos - and Logos support should the system fail. But we often get people on the forums who have run old software on old systems for years.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thank you.
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Adam Borries (Faithlife) said:
On February 4, 2020, the operating systems below will enter Maintenance Support status:
- Windows 7
- Windows 8.1
- 32-bit versions of Windows 10
- MacOS 10.11 "El Capitan"
- MacOS 10.12 "Sierra"
- MacOS 10.13 "High Sierra"
By the end of 2020, these operating systems will no longer be supported for Logos Bible Software.
https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007391412 seems to be out of date at the moment.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Do you have any Idea how many cheap software companies cater to win7-10 today? 35% of windows users still use 7! Some of these companies' software will still work on XP!
I'm a WordSearch 11 user with over 1000 books. I'm using a Win7 SP1 32 bit Ultimate fully updated, & I can still use WordSearch 8, which is over 17 yrs old! I work for the State with an I7 workstation still running 7 Enterprise & that machine has no problems running on a recently updated network.
I've been into computers since Windows 3.1, and I've seen this before. It's a software lock-out. The live update server can check your system & tell you what it's been programmed to say. That, however doesn't mean the software won't work. It's usually fixed in the EXE file not to work on purpose to force their customers to upgrade (microsoft, anyone?). In this case I believe it's the live download software on the server.
I wouldn't have any problem with this at all, if I could get an offline download that I could use.I could open it in a virtual win 10 if need be.
BTW, why doesn't Logos use the free version 7 and convert it to a Logos 8 for older systems? It's your software & you own all the rights to it, just give it a facial upgrade & ship it out.
Matthew 5:8 (ESV) Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
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I'm not trying to sound gripey, but there's thousands of WordSearch customers out there hoping for a smooth transition to Logos. As of right now, I can't even use logos 8. Am I doomed to use outdated software because I'm not given a way to switch? What about the others?
WordSearch is still good software. It's too bad no one wants to do anything with it, like the best of both integration.
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Stephen Mitchell said:
I'm not trying to sound gripey, but there's thousands of WordSearch customers out there hoping for a smooth transition to Logos. As of right now, I can't even use logos 8. Am I doomed to use outdated software because I'm not given a way to switch? What about the others?
WordSearch is still good software. It's too bad no one wants to do anything with it, like the best of both integration.
I might something of a computer nerd, but I still love goatskin Bibles, fountain pens, and index cards. To do so, I have to do almost all my own support. When my Bible falls apart, do I rebind or buy a new one? I grind my own nibs. My choice.
Faithlife committed to WordSearch owners but they can't commit to something they didn't engineer. I don't expect Logos to move the ribbons in my Bible or LibreOffice to refill my fountain pen. Some things are better that way.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Stephen Mitchell said:
Am I doomed to use outdated software because I'm not given a way to switch? What about the others?
Another way of looking at this is that you are doomed to use the most up to date software that will run on a system that you choose not to upgrade.
I take it there is no reason for you not to continue to use the very latest version of Wordsearch until such time as you want to change your system?
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Almost all Windows 10 systems sold recently are 64-bit. To find out the details on your operating system, click this link to open Settings, or right-click the Start Menu (Windows icon) and choose "System". Under "Device specifications", look for "System type". It should say "64-bit operating system, x64-based processor".
This maybe under the "about" tag
Also if one updates and the update corrupts the Logos system how can someone find and reinstall the older update that ran OK?
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