Pentecostal and Charismatic Should be Seperated
Pentecostal and Charismatic Base packages should be separated and distinguished from each other.
A Pentecostal Base Package should have something similar to the Wesleyan Base Package with additional works by strictly Pentecostal publishers. Other works that could be added are some from the Baptist stream. It is not appropriate to add works which stem from the independent Charismatic movement, such as C. Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, et al. Theologically and practically they are very different from Pentecostals.
A Charismatic Base package should include Baptist, Presbyterian, some Pentecostal works, Independent Charismatic works (Dutch Sheets et al). It should be much more varied denominationally than the Pentecostal Package is. Charismatic refers to non-Pentecostals from various denominations or independent movements who do not belong in the Pentecostal category. C Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, and many of the earlier such as J Rodman Williams.
In general, in my opinion, traditional Pentecostals would object to too much Independent Charismatic material in their base package. I believe that Faithlife needs to do more research on this. If their researcher is Charismatic, they may not fully understand the difference. The reason is not that Charismatics are ignorant, God forbid, that's not what I am saying. But Charismatics are far more open and accepting of novel ideas (e.g. Open Theism [C Peter Wagner, Harold Eberle], Calvinism [Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem]) than traditional Pentecostals.
Comments
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I'm no expert on the topic but my simplistic rule of thumb has been:
- Pentecostals are the charismatics who broke from their base denomination and founded a new denomination or independent church.
- Charismatics have the same basic configuration of beliefs but remained within their base denomination as a specific strain of theology and practices. As such, charismatics keep a more conservative base of beliefs than Pentecostals.
Where did I get my rule of thumb? (a) a well-known Charismatic Catholic priest serving multiple parishes (b) a sister and brother-in-law who were active in a traditional Azusa-street style Pentecostal denomination. Like most of us, my rule of thumb is a mix of theological knowledge and practical experience. Are you saying that the range of beliefs that the Pentecostal-Charismatic package intends to market to is broader than that of other packages?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It's just my opinion. Maybe I am wrong about that. I cobbled together my own library from a combination of Pentecostal, Wesleyan and Baptist works, with a smattering of other traditions.
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Kendall Sholtess said:
The first wave of charismatics remained in their denominations, the new wave of charismatics which started in the late 1970s are independent. They are all over the board theologically, but most have gone a bit off of the traditional Pentecostal doctrines. I think the doctrinal statements of the Assemblies of God or the Foursquare denomination represent well what traditional Pentecostal doctrine is.
Okay, now I am really confused and obviously don't know this part of church history. When I think of the charismatics who broke away and founded their own churches I am thinking specifically of the Assemblies of God (circa 1914), Foursquare (1923), Church of God (1886) etc. When I think of the Charismatics who stayed within their church I think of the mainline Protestants and Catholics of the 1960's. Yes, I know there were a number of one minister churches then think Oral Roberts, Vineyard, or Calvary Chapel ... but I don't think of them as outside the normal raise and fall of denominations.
Your reference to Wesleyan works make me think Holiness movement ... and Wesleyan itself makes me think Pietist which brings me to the Apostolic Lutheran Church - the first church in this whole stream that I am confident I understand.Can you give me a quick timeline or groups so I can see where I've gone astray?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I have always understood what is called the so called 3 waves of the Holy Spirit. The first wave being the Pentecostal wave beginning around 1900. This wave formed the basis of several Pentecostal groups. The second wave began around the 1960s and is known as the charismatic movement where Pentecostal doctrines jumped into some mainstream denominational churches, thus creating the Charismatic movement. The third wave began about 1980 with the teachings of men like Peter Wagner and John Wimber and is also known as the modern apostolic movement. These 3 waves are not the same, but are often referred to as waves in the sense that one wave affects another and those affects can blur the lines between the 3 waves.
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That is a good summary. I think that in the base package more weight has been given to the modern apostolic movement.
A large number of the early Pentecostals came from holiness backgrounds. As far as I can tell, traditional Pentecostals still maintain the influence of the Wesleyan holiness stream, although this varies in intensity from group to group, the underlying mode is the same. The Pentecostals took some elements of the holiness stream and revamped them. Pentecostals have often used Adam Clarke's commentary, for instance.
Basically, I wasn't trying to criticize anything. I was just pointing out that maybe, perhaps maybe some Wesleyan works should be added. Maybe Logos should do a poll on which resources Pentecostals or Charismatic would prefer to use.
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Thank you Mark and Kendall - what was missing for me was I'd not heard of the third wave. Something new to track down a bit about.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Kendall Sholtess said:
Pentecostal and Charismatic Base packages should be separated and distinguished from each other.
[Y]
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Some of these both conservative charismatics from across the body of Christ and traditional Pentecostals cringe at and have major concerns about. The most vocal does not mean the most sound.
Exegesis and grounding in the text as given by God are very important.0 -
Custom base packages would be awesome. If you could pick and choose sets of things, that would be lovely. Certain commentary sets are appealing. I would love to be able to chose from across the spectrum of these different packages and piece together something. I realize you can buy those sets independently, but budget wise it seems a bit deflating to pay for a bunch of things you don't/might not use to get something else at a discount or just enable the full features.
Most pastors are probably pleased to grab something from their camp, though, and keep it simple.
I see things in different packages that interest me, but the whole packages on most aren't so appealing. I am not in a hurry though.0 -
MJ, you might research New Apostolic Reformation. Lexham has two books that I would like to check out at some point, but the authors have interviews, etc. on the internet.... https://www.logos.com/search?filters=author-fc73853782229299e279cce74e469584_Author&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all
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Mark said:
I have always understood what is called the so called 3 waves of the Holy Spirit. The first wave being the Pentecostal wave beginning around 1900. This wave formed the basis of several Pentecostal groups. The second wave began around the 1960s and is known as the charismatic movement where Pentecostal doctrines jumped into some mainstream denominational churches, thus creating the Charismatic movement. The third wave began about 1980 with the teachings of men like Peter Wagner and John Wimber and is also known as the modern apostolic movement. These 3 waves are not the same, but are often referred to as waves in the sense that one wave affects another and those affects can blur the lines between the 3 waves.
Well stated, Mark. That's a perfect description as far as I'm concerned, and I'm a traditional Pentecostal who also wishes Logos would have broken up the classifications. Putting Pentecostals, Charismatics, and 3rd Wave NARs under the same umbrella is like putting Reformed, Baptists, and Lutherans under the same umbrella. Can you imagine the screaming that would have gone on if that scenario had ever unfolded in Logos?
But hey, we are just lowly "Spirit-filled" chandelier swingers, so it's okay to lump all of us together. Sigh...
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With over 500 million "spirit filled" believers in the world, trying to describe them is like the old story of the blind men trying to describe an elephant.
I do agree that the P&C package is very weak... particularly platinum and diamond packages. I don't think that either Cs or Ps are very happy with those packages. The P content if especially weak. I am a P and I am hoping for a better selection of resources when 9's packages come out.
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Well, I am glad that I did observe something that others were wondering about. Hopefully Faithlife will be aware of these major differences and consider doing something about them.
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Kendall Sholtess said:
Well, I am glad that I did observe something that others were wondering about. Hopefully Faithlife will be aware of these major differences and consider doing something about them.
This has been raised a few times Kendall
Understanding your denominations heritage helps is building a good library Pentecostalism did not just appear from a vacuum as some would have us believe. In fairness a lot of Pentecostals are influenced by some contemporary Charismatics which has an interesting theological impact and creates an interesting tension for a lot of Pentecostal believers. To be fair to Logos mixing the two in many ways reflects the current reality of how Pentecostals and Charismatics are seen even though it is not a true reflection of origins and core theology.
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MJ. Smith said:
Thank you Mark and Kendall - what was missing for me was I'd not heard of the third wave. Something new to track down a bit about.
It's not in Logos MJ but I suspect that you would find Steven Jack Land's Pentecostal Spirituality enlightening as an analysis of Pentecostal origins.
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I disagree with breaking up P&C. We don't need any more factioning and division among us. We need more unity! If our origins and constructs are slightly different, that just means we may have something to learn from each other. Referring to the nuances and inessential beliefs and practices, of course. Obviously the essential, cardinal tenets of the faith are non-negotiaoble. On those essential points P&C are almost always in agreement. We are on the same team. We have the same Spirit. I wonder what the Spirit would say about this? More division? Or unity and understanding?
It is my belief that the future of the movement is a mix of Pentecostal and Charismatic. P&Cs will learn from each other's teachings. Where the old said "us and them"; the young will say "we".
The future is unity as we move closer to the return of our Lord Jesus! Let's not do anything out of alignment with that Spirit.
With all that said, I agree the P&C packages have been weak. I am all for Custom packages--if possible. But breaking up P&C is not the right move.
Please just simply ask the Holy Spirit if this is the kinda thing He would do.
Blessings!0 -
Scott said:
I disagree with breaking up P&C. We don't need any more factioning and division among us. We need more unity! If our origins and constructs are slightly different, that just means we may have something to learn from each other. Referring to the nuances and inessential beliefs and practices, of course. Obviously the essential, cardinal tenets of the faith are non-negotiaoble. On those essential points P&C are almost always in agreement. We are on the same team. We have the same Spirit. I wonder what the Spirit would say about this? More division? Or unity and understanding?
It is my belief that the future of the movement is a mix of Pentecostal and Charismatic. P&Cs will learn from each other's teachings. Where the old said "us and them"; the young will say "we".
The future is unity as we move closer to the return of our Lord Jesus! Let's not do anything out of alignment with that Spirit.
With all that said, I agree the P&C packages have been weak. I am all for Custom packages--if possible. But breaking up P&C is not the right move.
Please just simply ask the Holy Spirit if this is the kinda thing He would do.
Blessings!👍
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Scott said:
I disagree with breaking up P&C.
Speaking as a Pentecostal who owns Pentecostal and Charismatic Diamond I am frustrated that a very larger percentage of the materials do not truly reflect my background. I personally think that the separation would enable a better focus and for me if that means a smaller and cheaper collection then that would free up more funds to invest in useful materials. For me Logos 8 will probably be the last time I purchase P&C.
Scott said:We don't need any more factioning and division among us.
To me this would be an argument for a complete review of collections and the complete removal of denominational collections. Other denominational groups have a better level of separation than we Pentecostals. Charismatic is a pan denominational view so if we are being precise denominational collections should not include Charismatics, they should be a subset within all denominations.
Scott said:P&Cs will learn from each other's teachings.
By the same argument, Logos should include Catholic resources with Reformed, Methodist with Baptist, Anglican with Seventh Day Adventist, Lutheran with Orthodox, etc. Why single out the Pentecostals for a different approach and then suggest we have show a "lack of unity and understanding" when we look for parity in treatment?
I have a broad library based on choice, it includes authors who hold very different views to mine and I appreciate the need to read widely to develop a full understanding. However, there are a lot of Charismatic authors that i simply do not want to read and personally I'd prefer not to have to purchase their resources to support Pentecostal authors that I do want to read.
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I'm not a P or a C (this sub-forum). But I'd assume most packages begin with C vs P (Catholic/Protestant), and then pursue a degree of emphasis, since few groups are tremendously fleshed out in Logos. A similar situation occurs between Baptist, and Restoration. Baptist doesn't have any restoration emphasis, so you mix/match here and there, to get discussion.
And I'd presume the Spirit is potentially among all of them.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Graham Owen said:
Logos should include Catholic resources with Reformed,
They do. Pretty much everything before 1400 is Jewish, Muslim, Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, or Catholic with a handful being Anglo-Catholic. Note that includes the Bible which other groups carried over just as the early Christian carried over Jewish scripture. More to the actual point you are trying to make, you need to consider the degrees of separation - in which case FL does cross-pollinate its base packages.
I think the question that ought to be asked is more in this context:
- Having a base package of a particular flavor requires a sufficient market
- In addition, there must be sufficient materials available to generate marketable upgrades when new versions are released.
- The resource sales must support both the base packages and their updates; this may require a level of sales from users of different traditions.
- QUESTION: Is there a sufficient market to support two traditions separately.
The answer is: I personally haven't a clue as I am not a part of that market however defined.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Having a base package of a particular flavor requires a sufficient market
This is probably at the root of the problem, in my experience my Pentecostal colleagues are not as interested in tools like Logos and tend to stick with the denominational publisher.
MJ. Smith said:In addition, there must be sufficient materials available to generate marketable upgrades when new versions are released.
Point above creates an issue as I think most of the denominational publishers have not engaged with Logos at least in part because they still get good revenue from members buying books from them.
MJ. Smith said:The resource sales must support both the base packages and their updates; this may require a level of sales from users of different traditions.
I understand the commercial considerations I think the challenge for Logos is understanding whether they would make more revenue from 2 smaller packages than they do from the single combined one.
MJ. Smith said:QUESTION: Is there a sufficient market to support two traditions separately.
I doubt that they have enough data to make an informed decision.
I agree that there is the inevitable overlap in materials based on the many forks in the road that have got us to where we are today, for most of us that is just a case of understanding the journey that brought our faith tradition here. Looking back is interesting especially when you hear someone dismiss some Church Fathers as "Catholic" while adopting others because they are "Protestant" when this is clearly an invalid approach. Personally I see the need to include different materials because of the historical development of a denomination as being very different to the contemporary authors that are included where they are speaking from a theological perspective that is now formed.
An obvious example would be John Wesley whose influence on early Pentecostalism is clear through the Holiness Movement and his Church Organisation approach. Where this would be add odds with many Charismatics for most traditional Pentecostals the theology of Wesley is definitely a stop on the journey. His works may predate the emergence of Pentecostalism but there is a clear link on the family tree for most Pentecostals.
As someone who has owned Logos since the early days I am used to identifying the resources that are useful to me without relying on the denominational tag. I do feel though that Logos seems to lack awareness of just how different Pentecostals and Charismatics can be in both origins and theological views and why they really don't belong together (IMHO).
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Graham Owen said:seems to lack awareness of just how different Pentecostals and Charismatics can be in both origins and theological views
You're focusing on differences and not similarities. That is how we got denominationalism. We don't need any more of that. IMHO, P&C really do belong together.
The future is unity. Young P&Cs are already saying as much. And the movement is growing. Let's not do them a disservice.Graham Owen said:someone dismiss some Church Fathers as "Catholic" while adopting others because they are "Protestant" when this is clearly an invalid approach.
Exactly. Same concept as P&Cs partnering and having something to learn from one another.
I just think it's not the future to sink to the repugnant level of denominationalism just for a more isolated base package. The next generatiion will look back on us with disgust same ol' denominationalism like everyone else or with admiration at our vision.
Again, I'm talking about asking what the Holy Spirit would have and not what your pocketbook, denomination, or origin would have.
Have a great day everyone!0 -
We are not to compromise truth for the sake of unity. The antichrist spirits have that same strategy. I agree that unity is important, but it is unity around truth and perfect unity will be in eternity. There are some fringes of this movement that have so departed from scripture, I don't even know if people in these circles don't have the Holy Spirit or just have more than one spirit at work-- in which case REPENTANCE is in order, not compromise. It is disconcerting and people are being harmed. There is a total lack of discernment in many right now. God knows. Our loyalty is always to the Lord above men first. We need to be in prayer now more than ever. God bless and keep all.
I would love to see Logos do a "build your own" type package.
We have a new "version" of the bible out that is utter garbage and it's being embraced. The story behind it is disconcerting as is the "translation" itself. If you don't know what I am talking about, please do some research as there are more than a few things that are concerning.
There will be MANY that the Lord says to depart who think they are doing the works of God.0 -
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Scott said:
You're focusing on differences and not similarities.
Agreed but the whole system of collections is premised on differences if it was not then Logos would not have introduced them. This was a commercial decision that has commercial implications for the buyer.
Scott said:Again, I'm talking about asking what the Holy Spirit would have and not what your pocketbook, denomination, or origin would have.
This is clearly a deliberately loaded question. In my view the Holy Spirit would definitely want us to invest in materials that properly reflect the Gospel and broader message of the Bible as we understand it and to be good stewards of our finances in the investments that we make whether these purchases come from within our denomination or not. The inevitable by product of the positive view is the negative view that we should avoid wasting finances on materials that promote views that we see as full of errors with the obvious exception of those resources required to better understand the errors and guide others away from them.
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Based on the Forum Guidelines, I am not sure we can get into the subject of specific errors in the P&C movement. Except, I think it's safe for me to finger greedy, self-help televanglists, but I don't see much of that in Logos. As when dealing with any distinctive Christian group, eat the meat, spit out the bones.
P&C's in all their variety, are really the same Body-wide movement. Look what God is doing, bird's- eye view and into the future. Let's not taint the outpouring movement with division.
I really don't want to belabor every point. I think I've stated my vision of the next generation well enough. I disagree with breaking up P&C. Now I'll hold my peace.0 -
The primary question that needs to be asked is whether there is genuinely enough content currently in Logos to offer separate collections filled with relevant resources for each group ? If not then this is a mere a moot philosophical discussion, if the answer is yes then it's a question that can lead to an genuine outcome.
And if the answer is not then someone from each group needs to take up the baton and champion resources relevant to that group being added to Logos so it can move from a philosophical question to a practical outcome.
Kendall Sholtess said:Pentecostal and Charismatic Base packages should be separated and distinguished from each other.
A Pentecostal Base Package should have something similar to the Wesleyan Base Package with additional works by strictly Pentecostal publishers. Other works that could be added are some from the Baptist stream. It is not appropriate to add works which stem from the independent Charismatic movement, such as C. Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, et al. Theologically and practically they are very different from Pentecostals.
A Charismatic Base package should include Baptist, Presbyterian, some Pentecostal works, Independent Charismatic works (Dutch Sheets et al). It should be much more varied denominationally than the Pentecostal Package is. Charismatic refers to non-Pentecostals from various denominations or independent movements who do not belong in the Pentecostal category. C Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Cindy Jacobs, and many of the earlier such as J Rodman Williams.
In general, in my opinion, traditional Pentecostals would object to too much Independent Charismatic material in their base package. I believe that Faithlife needs to do more research on this. If their researcher is Charismatic, they may not fully understand the difference. The reason is not that Charismatics are ignorant, God forbid, that's not what I am saying. But Charismatics are far more open and accepting of novel ideas (e.g. Open Theism [C Peter Wagner, Harold Eberle], Calvinism [Sam Storms, Wayne Grudem]) than traditional Pentecostals.
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Thanks, Graham. I am in agreement with you on this. I would say further that denominations are not the source of disunity. Unity doesn't mean having the same opinion about things. No matter what church you go to, they are going to have a distinctive theology.
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Kendall Sholtess said:
Unity doesn't mean having the same opinion about things.
My favourite book on this subject is by Joel Edwards...
Unfortunately unity is too often confused with uniformity.
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That looks like a good book, Graham. Sadly, it doesn't look like it's sold.
I myself am not a dogmatist. I simply cannot be too dogmatic. I've tried, oh how I have tried! Just searching for somewhere to rest my weary head. But now I have 4,800 electronic books of many denominations and they don't lend well to head resting.
I suppose my repose will need to be in heaven, where I may not need to search for answers so wearyingly. (I doubt Oxford will add my word to their dictionary. Native speakers can guess the meaning).
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